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  #21  
05-12-2019, 05:51 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Well guys, I may have to take a break from this project. I don't have the money to afford hundreds of dollars worth of equipment. I tried iuVCR, but that doesn't help with my situation. There was an option in the program to change the muxer. I tried VHWriter, because I thought it would help drop frames that it detected, but it didn't do a good job getting rid of the garbage frames.

I can't use iuVCS because I installed it once before and the trial ran. Re-installing it work.

If there was a program that could detect the frame drops from the card and discard them in real time, then I would probably go with that. I have yet to see one that can do this.

I also need assistance in figuring out what kind of TBC I'd need (type and make/model), because there are many available from what it seems, but I don't know where to begin when it comes to getting one.


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  #22  
05-12-2019, 06:05 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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If I was able to feed the VCR to the DVD recorder and then to the MX-1 and use the mixer to brighten up the picture, that would suffice. But the Videonics can't seem to brighten the image. I guess it makes sense why it can't, because it thinks the image coming from the DVD recorder is a clean, accurate signal.
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  #23  
05-12-2019, 06:21 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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You need a proc amp to adjust analog signal levels (e.g., black, gain, saturation, and hue). Some TBCs include a basic proc amp capability, others don't.

The MX Pro mixer included the ability to make some adjustment to color and brightness, but the original MX-1 did not.
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  #24  
05-20-2019, 03:31 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Sorry to bug you guys again, but I'm going to write a want ad in the Marketplace forum and I need some guidance on what kind of TBC device I should be looking for.

Once again, here is a sample video of the issue.
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  #25  
05-20-2019, 03:43 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonT View Post
Sorry to bug you guys again, but I'm going to write a want ad in the Marketplace forum and I need some guidance on what kind of TBC device I should be looking for.

Once again, here is a sample video of the issue.
That's not a video. That's a bad photo of your monitor.
How to Properly Upload Images and Attach Files to This Site
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  #26  
05-20-2019, 04:12 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
That's not a video. That's a bad photo of your monitor.
Yes it is. Maybe for some reason you're having trouble playing it, but it's definitely a video. I've referenced videos like this in this thread numerous times and people were able to view it, so I'm confident it's not the video that's not working. I just played it back myself and it plays fine.

I tried uploading a video here and when it reaches 100%, the upload window seems to refresh and tries to upload again. All of my videos are less than 99 MBs. I also prefer uploading to external websites, because than I can use that link in other places. My internet here is terribly slow. My upload speed varies around 1 to 1.5 Mb/s (or 125-187 KB/s).
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  #27  
05-20-2019, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonT View Post
My internet here is terribly slow. My upload speed varies around 1 to 1.5 Mb/s (or 125-187 KB/s).
There's also a timeout period, not just file size. Slow internet is the issue. Attach smaller files. I also don't know what you're trying to attach. Lossless AVI is often unnecessary, compress it down to high bitrate H.264 (MP4 or MKV container), preferably 4:2:2 (default is 4:2:0).

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  #28  
05-20-2019, 04:24 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
There's also a timeout period, not just file size.
That's what I thought it was.

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I also don't know what you're trying to attach.
Just an MP4 video.
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  #29  
05-20-2019, 06:36 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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So it's a bit hard to tell from the video since it's a filmed screen, but it looks like there is some tearing issue at the top of the image. In that case it may work better with a panasonic DMR-ES10 or ES15 dvd-recorder to pass the signal through rather than a TBC as it's better at dealing with that specific thing. Not going to say anything for sure though, I'll let others chime in.

Also, given that it seems to be TV recordings, have you checked if the source material may be available elsewhere?
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  #30  
05-21-2019, 05:37 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
So it's a bit hard to tell from the video since it's a filmed screen, but it looks like there is some tearing issue at the top of the image.
I've recorded a more comprehensive (see attached file). In this one, I have the VCR hooked up through the DVD recorder and another input coming straight from the VCR. I flip between both inputs in realtime and you can clearly see how the DVD recorder does fix the frame jumps, but at the cost of the decreased brightness and color.

In this video, there is also tearing at the top of the footage as well as color lines protruding a little bit from the right side.

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Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
In that case it may work better with a Panasonic DMR-ES10 or ES15 DVD recorder to pass the signal through, rather than a TBC as it's better at dealing with that specific thing. Not going to say anything for sure though, I'll let others chime in.
Yeah, you're not the first person to bring up the Panasonic recorders. I mean, I hope that it does turn out to be what I need. Hopefully I don't need some expensive TBC, as my goal is just to correct the frame issues without enhancing anything else. I'm also hoping for others to chime in as I'm trying to narrow down what exactly I need so I can move to the next step.

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Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Also, given that it seems to be TV recordings, have you checked if the source material may be available elsewhere?
Correct. These shows were recorded live via Satellite cable. I have thought of that, but #1, I don't feel good about obtaining the footage from alternative sources. And #2, our internet here is very slow. 10Mbps down and 1.5 Mbps up. I had to tether my smartphone in order to upload this video, otherwise it would have timed out.



Last edited by DevonT; 05-21-2019 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Grammar fixes
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  #31  
05-21-2019, 07:27 PM
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The only key to the ES15 is getting a complete and fully tested unit in good condition. And preferably clean. The remote is required, and the power cord is not attached, so both are often missing. Unlike external TBCs, the DVD recorders were mostly used by consumers. That means kids putting Lego into unit, using the DVD tray as a cup holders, puffing cigarette smoke into it, etc. I'm not joking. And since DVD has been falling out of favor for years, you'll also find where the units were stored in the attic or garage, and that's not good for the components.

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  #32  
05-22-2019, 02:59 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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I went to the garage today and opened a box full of VHS tapes. They're somewhat newer (between the '90s and early '00s). I did notice some frame jumps here and there when running directly from the VCR (with Video Stabilization on). However, with the DVD recorder, it resolves 99% of the frame jumps. For these kind of tapes, I'm going to use the DVD recorder I have now, because it's the only way to get the best footage possible. The only issue I have is that the videos are blurry, because the DVD recorder is working to keep the image stabilized. Due to the recorder trying to keep the image from going haywire, the image shakes ever-so-slightly, making the text at the bottom a little blurry at times. It doesn't look bad directly from the VCR, but even with Video Stabilization on, that isn't the best way because I still get the frame issues. I haven't tried the MX-1 yet, but I will in a moment.

As for the tapes that need more help (i.e. the older tapes), I'm kind of stuck right now. I don't know what device I need. Today I was checked up on the Video Hardware Suggestions page and I've been getting a little confused with the wording. Below, where TBCs are mentioned, there appears to be 4 categories of TBCs. I'm getting stuck on the difference between a line and full-frame TBC. According to what's written on the page, a line TBC is great at removing “visual errors,” but does “almost nothing for signal purity.” I'm confused. What do they mean by “signal purity?” If the machine is removing visual errors, isn't that by definition purifying the signal? It also mentions that line TBCs “sometimes make a signal look worse.” I don't know if my MX-1 has a line TBC, but that would make sense, given that when I run the old tapes through the MX-1, it makes the image look worse by adding these weird scan lines next to the moving objects that was never there before.

Also, when I read up on the full-frame TBC, I noticed that it has the potential to correct “vertical bouncing or jittering in the image.” I realize that it was referenced to the DataVideo TBC-1000, but I assume that the same type of corrections apply to other full-frame TBCs. In the sample videos I provided here, you can see see two different problems occur. In the video where I'm recording the monitor, you can see the frames jump vertically. There's a lot of jitter. In the other video, you can see that every few seconds, a random frame from a second or-so prior will flash. I believe that's because the USB capture card doesn't know how to handle the corrupt signal.

I'm confused because I don't know which TBC I need. They sound very similar to me, if not the same (just different wording). On one hand, I do have “visual errors,” being frames jumping and/or flickering during playback. So in that case, I guess I would need a line TBC. On the other hand, a full-frame TBC is supposed to correct “vertical bouncing or jittering in the image.”. There's jitter going on in several of these tapes as well as frames jumping and/or flickering; So I guess I need a full-frame TBC?

I apologize if I come off harsh. I'm just impatient because I've been on this project since February and I feel stuck. The DVD recorder can only archive the easy tapes and the MX-1 causes more video issues than not. Plus if I want to order the replacement AC adapter, I have to wait 2 months to get it, or pay an additional $130 CAD to get it by the first week of June. I don't fully know what I should buy and I don't want to just buy anything because it's suggested. I want to know the why. I want to know what separates different TBCs from one-and-other, so that I understand things better. I'm really hoping that you guys can assist me to figure out what kind of device I'll need. If any of you need a sample video or picture to help you determine things, I'm fine with providing that. Whether it's with only the VCR, with the DVD recorder and/or the MX-1.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg TV output.jpg (53.5 KB, 3 downloads)
File Type: jpg USB capture.jpg (52.0 KB, 4 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: mp4 05 - VIDEO FLICKERING DEMO.mp4 (4.27 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: mp4 03 - Straight copy from JVC - SMALL COPY.mp4 (8.73 MB, 3 downloads)
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  #33  
05-23-2019, 08:48 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonT View Post
I'm confused because I don't know which TBC I need. They sound very similar to me, if not the same (just different wording).
They're not the same. Like most people, you need both types.

Attached is a short silent mpg movie made a few years ago that explains how tape problems occur and describes the two kinds of tbc used to correct playback errors. The 4-minute movie was originally made as a DVD. It's titled "How Video Tape Gets Messed Up". It's focused on NTSC tape but the same principles apply to PAL. The numbers and graphics are greatly simplified. There is no audio.

YouTube has many very misleading videos about VHS capture, most of which are full of errors and/or bad advice about capture equipment. But there is an old one in Japanese that compares a bad tape captured with and without both types of TBC. The tbc's used were in a pass-thru unit which many people use and which would have been a legacy DVD-R with powerful line-level and frame-level tbc's built-in. The two most powerful consumer tbc pass-thru units widely used to date are the Panasonic DMR-ES10 and DMR-ES15, as lordsmurf mentioned. Either would suffice, although I prefer the ES10. The drawback to pass-thru units is that they don't fix copy protection/MacroVision errors, but home videos don't use copy protection. The ES10 and ES15 have been shown to stabilize very bad tapes where other pass-thru devices failed.

A Japanese video comparing results with and without a pass-thru tbc:
VHS Video Tape Capture with TBC ( Time Base Correction Example ).

Your DVD recorder works better than your capture card in one respect: Like most DVD recorders it apparently has built-in line-level and frame-level tbc's, although like most such units it's not all that powerful and can't be used for pass-thru. Unfortunately recording directly to DVD isn't suitable for restoration or further correction without serious quality degradation.

It's odd that you can post a movie you made of your monitor showing software playing a video but you don't know how to use an editor to cut a short sample of the source video itself and post it to a forum. Besides other problems, that video has really bad macroblocks, chroma noise, and pretty horrible color. Even with a tbc, that video would still need a lot of cleanup. But we've seen many similar examples.


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File Type: mpg How Video Tape Gets Messed Up.mpg (56.80 MB, 13 downloads)
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  #34  
05-23-2019, 02:46 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
They're not the same. Like most people, you need both types.
Ok 😕

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Attached is a short silent mpg movie made a few years ago that explains how tape problems occur and describes the two kinds of tbc used to correct playback errors. The 4-minute movie was originally made as a DVD. It's titled "How Video Tape Gets Messed Up". It's focused on NTSC tape but the same principles apply to PAL. The numbers and graphics are greatly simplified. There is no audio.
I watched that. It seems like I need a full-frame TBC. You see, in the sample videos I've provided, the entire frame goes bad. In the video, an important distinction is made:

Quote:
A line-level TBC attempts to correct timing errors within a frame. Line-level TBCs gather individual image lines (240 image lines in each VHS frame), and outputs all of them at the same time.
In my case, the issue I have is not with individual lines in the frame. It's the entire frames that goes bad. So, going by that, I would tend to think that I need a full-frame TBC. I know that the image quality of the tapes aren't that great. If I record the tapes raw from the VCR, the picture quality is the same as what's on the TV. It's just that there are issues with frame jumps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
YouTube has many very misleading videos about VHS capture, most of which are full of errors and/or bad advice about capture equipment. But there is an old one in Japanese that compares a bad tape captured with and without both types of TBC. The tbc's used were in a pass-thru unit which many people use and which would have been a legacy DVD-R with powerful line-level and frame-level tbc's built-in.
Yes. When I began this project, I made a bookmark folder to keep track of all the videos I've watched. It's been a confusing 3 months trying to understand everything. But since I've been on this forum, things seem to make more sense now. Thanks for the video. That helped clear things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The two most powerful consumer tbc pass-thru units widely used to date are the Panasonic DMR-ES10 and DMR-ES15, as lordsmurf mentioned. Either would suffice, although I prefer the ES10.
I need some clarification on that. What kind of TBC is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The drawback to pass-thru units is that they don't fix copy protection/MacroVision errors, but home videos don't use copy protection. The ES10 and ES15 have been shown to stabilize very bad tapes where other pass-thru devices failed.
Right. None of these tapes are pre-recorded. All done manually. Another reason why I don't think these tapes suffer from Macrovision is because my USB capture card didn't pick up on anything like that. And since devices like that are supposed to honor Macrovision rules, my results lead me to believe those tapes don't have Macrovision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
A Japanese video comparing results with and without a pass-thru tbc:
VHS Video Tape Capture with TBC ( Time Base Correction Example ).
Thanks for that. Just watched it and added it to my VHS folder. I've never seen this one particular video before, but I have seen other videos from this channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Your DVD recorder works better than your capture card in one respect: Like most DVD recorders it apparently has built-in line-level and frame-level tbc's, although like most such units it's not all that powerful and can't be used for pass-thru.
I do think it has both, because it does remove the frame jumps on his newer tapes from the 2000s. Even his older tapes (for the most part). But for some reason, the DVD recorder makes his older tapes lose color and brightness. Note: This issue does not affect the entire tape, just certain pieces of footage. These tapes were not recorded all in one shot (EP mode, btw).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Unfortunately recording directly to DVD isn't suitable for restoration or further correction without serious quality degradation.
Yeah. My brother in-law was considering me doing that, but I convinced him otherwise. Not because of the quality, but because it's much easier to put everything on an external hard drive (and a backup copy just in case).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
It's odd that you can post a movie you made of your monitor showing software playing a video but you don't know how to use an editor to cut a short sample of the source video itself and post it to a forum.
That's because I was uploading the video to Twitter. This was before I came to this forum. The ones recorded properly were done from OBS. I have more related phone videos that I recorded, but I haven't posted them here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Besides other problems, that video has really bad macroblocks, chroma noise, and pretty horrible color.
I've re-uploaded the video, but this time with a higher bitrate. I tried to crop out everything but the video preview. Keep in mind, this was recorded off a phone, so disregard the color. The main point of taking that video was to demonstrate the frame issues. The reason that video had miner pixelation is because I had to compress it down enough in order to upload it easily. My upload speeds are awful, about ~125-187 KB/s. Uploading a 46MB video would have taken too long and cause the website to time out. For this time, I used my phone's data to upload the video. I try not to use it if possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Even with a tbc, that video would still need a lot of cleanup. But we've seen many similar examples.
I don't care about cleaning it up at all. I just want it to look exactly the way it shows on TV. The only change I want to make is to stabilize the video so that there frames are jumping and flickering. The rest of it can stay the same.


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File Type: mp4 03 - Straight copy from JVC - fixed.mp4 (25.12 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #35  
05-23-2019, 06:22 PM
JPMedia JPMedia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Attached is a short silent mpg movie made a few years ago that explains how tape problems occur and describes the two kinds of tbc used to correct playback errors. The 4-minute movie was originally made as a DVD. It's titled "How Video Tape Gets Messed Up". It's focused on NTSC tape but the same principles apply to PAL. The numbers and graphics are greatly simplified. There is no audio.
Can this video be pinned to a post on the top of the forum? sanlyn, this video is extremely helpful.
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  #36  
05-24-2019, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DevonT View Post
In my case, the issue I have is not with individual lines in the frame.
That's not how TBC works. You won't see individual lines being corrected. Line TBC corrects line-by-line, or intraframe, while frame TBC corrects whole frame, or interframe. It almost works like a GOP, sort of.

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  #37  
05-24-2019, 08:26 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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From the video you posted I would say try with a panasonic dmr-es10 / es 15 first. The "tearing" error at the top of the image is something the likes of the Datavideo and AVT-8710 TBCs don't usually correct.

That said it's a rather messy tape, and there is some strange thing happening with the chroma at the rightmost edge of the image. It's the sort of tape that is hard to give a good answer on without having it in my hands to test on different setups myself.
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  #38  
05-24-2019, 10:44 AM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
That's not how TBC works. You won't see individual lines being corrected. Line TBC corrects line-by-line, or intraframe, while frame TBC corrects whole frame, or interframe. It almost works like a GOP, sort of.
Well now I'm confused again 😕 I thought I was finally understanding what this all means. I thought I would need a frame TBC because of the fact that in the sample videos, the frames jump or flicker whenever a time base error occurs.

I was looking up on a few other forum posts from a while ago (some of them with you in it) and I was trying to make sense of the difference between a frame TBC and a Frame synchronizer. I wish I could understand it all easily.
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  #39  
05-24-2019, 11:01 AM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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From the video you posted I would say try with a panasonic dmr-es10 / es 15 first.
I've posted a few videos here. Which one are you referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The "tearing" error at the top of the image is something the likes of the Datavideo and AVT-8710 TBCs don't usually correct.
I don't recall if that occurs on TV or not, but if it isn't corrected, I don't really care. I could crop out most of that in post-processing. Like I've said here a few times, all I want to remove is the frame jumps. That's it. I have no interest in enhancing color, detail, nothing. When I have the VCR connected directly to the PC (via USB capture card), the frame issues kick in, but the picture quality is a 1:1 match of what's displayed when the tape is playing on TV. So the only thing I care about is stabilizing the video by removing the frame jumps.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
That said it's a rather messy tape, and there is some strange thing happening with the chroma at the rightmost edge of the image.
If you're referring to the tape that was recorded from my phone, then disregard the color. I only uploaded that video to demonstrate the frame jumps.
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  #40  
05-24-2019, 01:22 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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I can't edit my post to fix the image missing (though it was there before). So here's the attached GIF..


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capturing old vhs tapes, dvd recorder, macrovision, tbc, vcr

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