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  #21  
05-05-2019, 09:29 PM
pavilion pavilion is offline
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Well, I have no idea! Please tell me the best way to get DV off the tapes without the lossy artifacts. All I have is a TRV50 with an S-Video and DV outputs. I can go to PC or Mac but as these posts keep telling me the only option is the DV port. And a TBC is apparently not appropriate for DV. I had asked whether taking the video vis analog S-Video made sense, and everyone seems to say no, because the lossy already occurred during recording so at this point it can't get any worse. Am I missing something? How would you suggest I do this?

Or are you saying that there are NEW lossy artifacts that result from the conversion process, above and beyond the existing lossy artifacts created at the time the tape was recorded?
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  #22  
05-05-2019, 09:52 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Analog tape video doesn't have digital artifacts. The reason it doesn't have digital artifacts is because analog isn't digital. It isn't compressed, it doesn't even have pixels, and is just continuously varying analog waveforms.

Yes, capturing analog source to lossy digital codecs adds lossy digital compression artifacts that don't exist in analog source. That's why lossless codecs are used for analog capture, because lossless codecs don't use lossy compression.

This doesn't mean that analog tape doesn't have noise and defects. It certainly does, and so does DV. That's why they're cleaned up in post-proxcessing, so that noise and other defects don't appear as so many digital artifacts in your final encodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pavilion View Post
Well, I have no idea! Please tell me the best way to get DV off the tapes without the lossy artifacts.
What are you talking about? DV is lossy to begin with and does have compression artifacts. But DV is copied to a PC via Firewire, not re-encoded, so no new problems are added. Any existing DV noise or artifacts are cleaned in post-processing so that they don't affect your final encode to other formats.

Do you really want see this again?
Okay......
MiniDv in a DV camera -> Firewire cable -> Firewire input on PC -> WindDV software in Windows -> DV-AVI file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pavilion View Post
All I have is a TRV50 with an S-Video and DV outputs. I can go to PC or Mac but as these posts keep telling me the only option is the DV port. And a TBC is apparently not appropriate for DV. I had asked whether taking the video vis analog S-Video made sense, and everyone seems to say no, because the lossy already occurred during recording so at this point it can't get any worse.
True. If you're stuck with s-video to play your DV tape, then it will be converted to analog video. The quality of that conversion depends on how well the camera does it, which will probably not be too bad. But the only way to prevent further loss is to feed that s-video signal to an analog capture card and capture it to lossless media, the same way you would capture an analog tape. Then take it through some post-process lossless cleanup (which you would have to do anyway) and finish up with some edits and final encoding to any format you want.
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  #23  
05-05-2019, 10:24 PM
pavilion pavilion is offline
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Our messages were crossed so I responded before seeing your entire, so very helpful, guidance. I am going to need some time to digest it all, and think (please tell me if you agree) that I should take it in steps. First, get the video off the Hi8 and DV tapes onto a computer as lossless-ly as possible.

For Hi8: Camcorder > S-Video > TBC > Either ATI AIW/XP PC or ATI 600USB/Win7 pC > Hard Drive
For MiniDV: Camcorder -> Firewire -> PC -> WinDV in Windows XP -> DV-AVI

Little confused on the MiniDV Workflow you suggest above. If I am going with Firewire, are there XP machines that have those ports, or do I need a Firewire card? I had though the workflow would allow me to bump up to a Win7 machine but you specified WinDV in XP, so I assume you suggest the MiniDV capture should be an XP machine, unless you were doing so under the assumption that I wanted to keep all the conversion on the same PC. Not necessarily.

All of this presumes that I can then tackle post processing at a later date. Does that make sense, or must the post processing occur at the same time as the lossless conversion? If hopefully not, then I would take the next couple of months just getting everything onto HDD's and then start working on the cleanup and editing.

And by the way, all the post processing you refer to above, that is with software, correct? We're not talking about additional hardware, right?

-- merged --

No, I fully get it now. I had not read the entire message (it did not update on my screen) before I typed the question. I've got DV down pat now, thanks to you!

-- merged --

'If you're stuck with s-video to play your DV tape, then it will be converted to analog video. The quality of that conversion depends on how well the camera does it, which will probably not be too bad. But the only way to prevent further loss is to feed that s-video signal to an analog capture card and capture it to lossless media, the same way you would capture an analog tape. Then take it through some post-process lossless cleanup (which you would have to do anyway) and finish up with some edits and final encoding to any format you want."

Well, I'm not stuck. I have both ports on the camera, S-Video and Firewire. The question was whether it made any sense to feed the signal via analog as opposed to DV. Put differently, given the inherent DV artifacts, would routing the signal through S-Video and a TBC to a capture card and computer using lossless HuffYUV and VirtualDub yield a better quality master than copying through the Firewire port directly to the computer?
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  #24  
05-05-2019, 10:41 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavilion View Post
Our messages were crossed so I responded before seeing your entire, so very helpful, guidance. I am going to need some time to digest it all, and think (please tell me if you agree) that I should take it in steps. First, get the video off the Hi8 and DV tapes onto a computer as lossless-ly as possible.

For Hi8: Camcorder > S-Video > TBC > Either ATI AIW/XP PC or ATI 600USB/Win7 pC > Hard Drive
For MiniDV: Camcorder -> Firewire -> PC -> WinDV in Windows XP -> DV-AVI

Little confused on the MiniDV Workflow you suggest above. If I am going with Firewire, are there XP machines that have those ports, or do I need a Firewire card? I had though the workflow would allow me to bump up to a Win7 machine but you specified WinDV in XP, so I assume you suggest the MiniDV capture should be an XP machine, unless you were doing so under the assumption that I wanted to keep all the conversion on the same PC. Not necessarily.

All of this presumes that I can then tackle post processing at a later date. Does that make sense, or must the post processing occur at the same time as the lossless conversion? If hopefully not, then I would take the next couple of months just getting everything onto HDD's and then start working on the cleanup and editing.
Don't capture everything at once. Try one or two tapes to get the feel of things and to iron out the kinks. Trying to do everything at once will be nothing but frustration. I've been there. Also, make a few short sample edits of your unaltered captures for details pro and con. We can tell you how to use VirtuaLDub easily to make edits for posting. Please don't use YouTube to post, such posts are almost always ignored because YouTube destructively re-processes everything and they will no longer be accurate representations of your capture.

We'd strongly suggest XP for lossless capture and for WinDV. Windows 7 is simply harder to use and to install most of what you're using. XP is easier. But if you get stuck with win7 for capture, well, so be it. I find everything about Win7 to be more convoluted and annoying. As for windows 10, it's no contest -- forget it!

XP and even Win7 can take PCI FireWire add-on cards. Use only the PCI cards that specifically have Texas Instruments processors. You'll find a few at newegg.com.

Post processing with Hi8 and DV is a lot easier than cleaning up VHS. But don't get into a rush. Knowing something about post cleanup will help you to better understand proper capture procedure.
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  #25  
05-06-2019, 08:28 AM
pavilion pavilion is offline
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Sounds like a plan. But one more thing, again. Are we going to go DV > Firewire > Computer or DV > S-Video > TBC > Capture Card > Computer? Does the latter method help clean some of the DV artifacts you referred to earlier or will a straight copy via DV and then cleanup be better?
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  #26  
05-06-2019, 09:10 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Copying or capturing doesn't do any cleaning. That's for later.
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  #27  
05-06-2019, 09:48 AM
pavilion pavilion is offline
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Got it. And TBC's are for analog signals only and would have positive effect on a DV routed through an analog S-Video.
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  #28  
05-06-2019, 03:21 PM
kcmom kcmom is offline
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About 6 or 7 years ago I captured HI8 video to a windows 7 computer using an ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB Digital and Analog TV Tuner with Remote Control that was recommended on this site, and purchased on Amazon. I don't believe you can get it on amazon any longer. It came with an RCA and S Video connectors for input and has USB output. I used virtualdub with settings as advised on this site. The camera I had was Sony Digital HandyCam DCR-TRV120 with firewire, composite and s-video ports. It had built in TBC which I set to on and set DNR to off as advised by nice folks on this site. I used the s-video connector. I did not have the funds to purchase a separate TBC. I was very surprised at how good the video looked after it was captured. Since your camera has the TBC, you might give it a try to see what it looks like. I'm sure Sanlyn would give an opinion on a clip you post.

Sony DCR-TRV120 with built in TBC turned on --> S-video and RCA sound cables --> ATI600-->Windows 7 computer's USB port. Using virtual dub for capture to AVI worked well for me.
Check out the Video Guides found under the Guides tab on this site.

I am still waiting (somewhat patiently) on an answer to question asked in another thread about how to copy DV tapes with same camera via firewire and thunderbolt adapter to macbook air. I have the macbook air purchased used from where I work, or I wouldn't currently be able to afford that. (It was used by me, so I knew how it had been treated.) The windows computer that I have is a laptop which cannot have firewire port added. I would prefer best procedures, but sometimes we have to work with what we can afford.

Maybe someone would answer this for me:
1. What software will create the exact copy---on a mac?
2. If it is an exact digital copy, can I then copy to flash drive or some other device and switch to windows computer for editing?

Sanlyn- Please don't yell at me! In a perfect world I would have built a dedicated pc with everything recommended, but unfortunately, we don't all have the budget for your method and I do not receive income from transferring my own tapes. I'm sure I am one of "those" people that can't see the difference very well, but being able to share these videos with family for these years has been better than not having them at all. Would you simply advise those of us that can't find a way to follow your advice to throw out the tapes, since we can't do it your way? I'm glad I didn't! I'm sorry that I'm too poor and ignorant to meet your criteria, but I have learned a lot from this site and have much more to learn. If I ever win the lottery, I will switch to your and lordsmurf's best practices asap! I am afraid that, had you been answering my posts 6 or 7 years ago, you would have scared me off. I know we can't "hear" your tone when reading posts, but it is easy to interpret it in an unfriendly manner.
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  #29  
05-06-2019, 03:46 PM
ELinder ELinder is offline
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kcmom, if you already have the firewire to thunderbolt adapter, you can use iMovie to transfer the DV tapes to the MacBook Air.

https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/s...icles/00173003

Erich
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  #30  
05-06-2019, 04:08 PM
kcmom kcmom is offline
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Erich, thank you. Should/can I then move those files to windows computer to edit?
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  #31  
05-06-2019, 09:03 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmom View Post
Sanlyn- Please don't yell at me! In a perfect world I would have built a dedicated pc with everything recommended, but unfortunately, we don't all have the budget for your method and I do not receive income from transferring my own tapes.

......
If I ever win the lottery, I will switch to your and lordsmurf's best practices asap! I am afraid that, had you been answering my posts 6 or 7 years ago, you would have scared me off. I know we can't "hear" your tone when reading posts, but it is easy to interpret it in an unfriendly manner.
Oop, that's scary even to me! I'm sorry it comes off that way. I'll have to tone down.

You don't give yourself enough credit. You seem to have learned a few things, and you're doing the best you can. You'd be surprised how many folks don't even try to do either. Actually I've produced some pretty awful stuff myself with unrecommended hardware (and worse), had to learn a few things to try and salvage the results. Just last week I was thinking about posting some sample bloopers and calling it "The Bad Tape Chronicles", in several parts. But it seems that life keeps intervening, as it does with everybody.

Didn't lordsmurf post a while back that WinDV could be used in Windows 7? A note and link about Win7 and later install fixes: WinDV freeware software [DOWNLOAD].
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  #32  
05-06-2019, 09:30 PM
kcmom kcmom is offline
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Pavilion, this is what I used: (you want to make sure you have all the necessary parts)
Oops, sorry pictures are so huge!

-- merged --

Sanlyn,

Thanks for your comments! I am slowly learning .... bit by bit. I will download winDV. Thank you for reminding me of that...Lol, I may already have it and have forgotten it.

Am I crazy? or will it work? to transfer to mac saved as AVI, then move it to windows computer with flash drive? Or will I have compatibility issues?

In my mind, bit by bit transfer - 0s and 1s - will be the same on both. But I don't really know. I think once upon a time I had a company capture 8mm to AVI, send it to me on a flash drive and it worked on windows, but I didn't have a mac back then.

I am in the middle of scanning photos and trying to determine if my scanner (Epson V370) is good enough. Kpmedia has helped me with some settings. I will be trying the DV transfer as soon as school, where I currently work, is out for the summer.


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