Quantcast Bitrates: CQmatic/Calcumatic Continued... - Page 5 - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #81  
06-24-2005, 05:42 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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There's no big change in the core of CQmatic needed, just one pre-routine.

- Start Calcumatic. A new option in Calcumatic will be added like "count of (x) Movie streams to predict for one target". When selecting each of the (x) Sources in a List_Gadget then Calcumatic in the backround will create an avs as followed:
Code:
a=Import("My_first_Movie.avs")
b=Import("My_second_Movie.avs")
return a+b
- Use Calcumatic to obtain the needed Value incl. the Number of Audio streams and Bitrates BUT the # of video Streams in the Number_of_VideoStreams_Gadget is now forced to only ONE video Stream. And Calcumatic uses vfw API to parse out the time of that generated (moviecollectioned) avs.
This will output the exact value used to be used in CQmatic


- CQ matic launches
- Import the MovieCollected.avs generated above in CQmatic.
CQmatic runs and after some time the resulted CQ comes out.
Now CQ Matic does delete the moviecollected.avs and encodes the both "My_first_Movie.avs" and "My_second_Movie.avs" separately one after one.

The result will be 2 mpegs incl. diff. sizes BUT SAME quality and Everything needed (Audiostreams, both mpeg encodings etc) will match on ONE DVD-R or the size of the target you did set in Calcumatic.

DO it Karl
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  #82  
06-24-2005, 06:02 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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But as Karl lives in a nice shiny country which rises the mood ... here a much more individual approch:

On this approch NO temporal avs generating is needed!

Forget my post above as CQmatic wants TPR fiels to be imported!

(for making it easier at least for me *lol: Calcumatic = CM, CQmatic = CQM)


- In CM you choose in a Gadget the count of movies to be predicted for ONE target which is determined below in the target gadget.
Import each source, parsed in the way CM uses now. CM gots the total movietime result by adding all movietimes of the imported sources.
Set the numbers of audio channels where each audichannel has to be set to its INDIVIDUAL bitrate/size. Internally CM adds all kbits of the audios to one sum of audio size in total.

Finally you got a Value to be used in CQM.

- In CQM you do import in a listgadget the count of the Prebuildet TmpgEnc text project files of the movies parsed out in CM before.
Run CQM and NOW every prediction turn does predict movie1 and movie2 one after one. (Or the count of movies to be fit on one traget)
CQM looks for the resultet Bits of movie1 and movie2 where shurely the same CQ was used ... the sum of both stands for the final resulted amount of bits of THAT prediction turn.
And CQM runs its predictions in the way expl. the line above.
Finally CQM encodes theses (in this case) both movies at teh resulted CQ one by one.

Finally you got both m2vs on your disk (same quality, but diff. sizes!) which do match (incl. all the Audio etc.) exactly the size of the determined Target as set in CM.

This allows individual TPR files based on diff. matrix/GOP/DCT or whatever settings. Means if you want a DVD-R containing 1 progressive 23.976 movie at 720x480 and 2 interlaced 29.97 ones each of a size of 352x480 .... then this is possible

Enjoy.
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  #83  
06-24-2005, 06:18 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
@Inc: What about 2 pass vbr encoding/encoders?
Take a deep breath .... and reset your thoughts
2pass is NOT quality based.

2pass is exactly the opposite, as 2pass forces to reach the wanted avg Bitrate and not the wanted Quality.

Means you would have to encode slices in 2pass and parsing out the average Q and by that increasing/decreasing the avg values to obtain the Quality you want.
But thats like breaking into the locked back door of house where the main door at the front is unlocked and left open - just get in

HC encoder does output the used avg quant, but as we know we shouldnt trust in that value for continous OVP usage.
My idea is:
To do sliced samples of all your targets, at a given Q, whatever be the encoder. Let's say all samples are 5%.
Each one of those samples, have an amount of bits related to it "complexity" or motion.
Then, sum its sizes and later divide each individual size by the sum. This will give you a proportion. Apply it to a media size (minus audio and overhead) and you will have your destination target size. Do calculations with time (or frames/fps as I want to do in my tool if I someday could finish it) and you will have an avg bitrate to use in 2pass VBR.
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  #84  
06-24-2005, 06:29 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hi Andrej ,
Nice seeing you on the move with this idea - not a new one for sure but I nice one to explore .
This thread is getting much much interesting.
I've dropped Tmpgenc for quite some time.
Currently I'm mainly using HC 0.15.
For now, predictable CQ encode is almost impossible on HC, but nothing that Hank can't fix in a near future .
But I'm quite sure that it works with HC in 2-pass VBR.

@Karl,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwag
@Rui,
Thanks for the enlightening chat on Skype
Your welcome and it's always my pleasure
If you find this method feasible and positive in a way that you decide to implement it on Calcumatic, would you please consider making CQMatic compliant with HC also?
I know Pedro has done a wonderfull job with DVDREasy, but that's a one click tool for just a single movie from DVD-9 to DVD-5.
Here we're talking about a video encoding prediction tool not a single click tool.
Also here we're talking of many movies whereas DVDREasy was made for single movie.
Would you please consider that?
Please, please, please?
I'll be your beta tester for the rest of my live .
Cheers
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  #85  
06-24-2005, 07:15 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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In HC? 2pass?

Easy:

Do use an avs script

Code:
a= import("xxxxxxxxxx.avs)
b= import("yyyyyyyyyy.avs)
return a+b
Slice() it!
Do encode 2pass at the "needed" avg bitrate.
Write down the used Q value out of HCs ini file.

Do encode both avs NOW separately using the resulted Q at the same slices used as before.
Watch the resulted kbs of each stream and according to the used amount of film (%) and its minutes/sec you obtain the used avg bitrate of !each one!.

Encode both separately using the resulted avg bitrates (the will be different ) of each.
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  #86  
06-24-2005, 07:55 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hmmm,
But that means I'll be apllying the same script to both movies...
Or am I wrong ?
You see, I have some movies that need higher filtering (due to visible artifacts even on the sources - bad mastereds...).
In such sense I would need different avs scripts for both movies.
Though it is a very nice way for similar movies .
Please correct me if the above assumption is wrong.
Cheers
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  #87  
06-24-2005, 07:59 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Do encode both avs NOW separately using the resulted Q at the same slices used as before.
I am not at home right now, so I can't test this.
But it seems to me that it will be impossible to encode the same slices.
Since with the mentioned script movies are joined, my above assumption seems obvious.
Can you comment on that?
Cheers
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  #88  
06-24-2005, 09:39 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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You can merge individual script of the SAME size, SAME colorformat.

Code:
a= import("xxxxxxxxxx.avs)
b= import("yyyyyyyyyy.avs)
return a+b
As you see I do imort 2 different avs scripts into a generic avs script incl. merging them finally
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  #89  
06-24-2005, 10:46 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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@Andrej,
Either I'm not catching up on your line of thinking or I didn't express myself correctly.
I mean, some of my sources are not as good in quality than others.
In such sence, sometimes I apply more filtering on one movie than on the other movie being encoded for the same DVD-5 backup.
With your example script, you're merging both movies using the exact same filtering for both of them, aren't you?
That means that I can't use different filtering on each movie with it.
Or maybe I'm just confused because my knowledge on avisynth is less than good.
So correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers
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  #90  
06-24-2005, 11:43 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
@Andrej,
Either I'm not catching up on your line of thinking or I didn't express myself correctly.
I mean, some of my sources are not as good in quality than others.
In such sence, sometimes I apply more filtering on one movie than on the other movie being encoded for the same DVD-5 backup.
With your example script, you're merging both movies using the exact same filtering for both of them, aren't you?
That means that I can't use different filtering on each movie with it.
Or maybe I'm just confused because my knowledge on avisynth is less than good.
So correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers
You are wrong.
Your first "avs" imported is a normal avs with resize, crop and filtering for one of your movies.
Your second "avs" imported is another different normal avs adjusted to your 2nd. movie needs.

This last avs script have not another lines, only those that Incredible point you.
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  #91  
06-24-2005, 12:07 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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Inc approach is the one I suggested in my previous post.
When you apply both films the same Q (obtained through sliced prediction) each of them will make use of those bits needed to mantain the Q.
No need to find percentage of space in media. Just predicting both films together, to fit media, and obtain Q for both of them.
I see it cristal clear. I'm sorry I cannot find the proper words to explain it. Inc is explaining it far better.
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  #92  
06-24-2005, 12:31 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
Inc approach is the one I suggested in my previous post.
When you apply both films the same Q (obtained through sliced prediction) each of them will make use of those bits needed to mantain the Q.
No need to find percentage of space in media. Just predicting both films together, to fit media, and obtain Q for both of them.
I see it cristal clear. I'm sorry I cannot find the proper words to explain it. Inc is explaining it far better.
We are talking about 2 differents things. I understand you perfectly. Also I understand Incredible. It seems that you don't understand me, Im sorry, my english is really very bad.
Im looking or wish a integral tool, not only to find Q values to Q encodings, but proportional space for 2pass VBR encoding. In these last ones, you need to do first sliced samples of each one, find out the proportion and apply that at de total media space (minus audio and overhead, of course).
Can you understand me?
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  #93  
06-24-2005, 01:16 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
Just predicting both films together, to fit media, and obtain Q for both of them.
Yep. I agree, and that will work perfectly.
Create a .d2v project of all your movies (2, 3, etc.), and then run CQMatic.
It will then predict, based on the complete footages, and find one optimal CQ value.
Use this found CQ value to encode all the movies that were loaded in the .d2v file.
The result will be a different file size for each movie, optimal in bitrate allication/quality, and the sum of all movies should be close to the target media.

-kwag
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  #94  
06-24-2005, 01:19 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
Im looking or wish a integral tool, not only to find Q values to Q encodings, but proportional space for 2pass VBR encoding.
My previous post explains just that. Proportional sizes will be created for each movie, if prediction is taken into account as a whole. That is, predict with all the movies/footage as a single stream.

-kwag
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  #95  
06-24-2005, 01:33 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
Im looking or wish a integral tool, not only to find Q values to Q encodings, but proportional space for 2pass VBR encoding.
My previous post explains just that. Proportional sizes will be created for each movie, if prediction is taken into account as a whole. That is, predict with all the movies/footage as a single stream.

-kwag
If you could devellope such tool. It would give us not only a Q value, but an avg btr for each stream, in case somebody want to do a 2pass vbr encoding?
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  #96  
06-24-2005, 01:57 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
If you could devellope such tool. It would give us not only a Q value, but an avg btr for each stream, in case somebody want to do a 2pass vbr encoding?
Well, not really, because the above would find the correct CQ, but there's no direct relationship of CQ vs. average bitrate.
What I described would indeed find the correct CQ value to encode each movie, but there's no way to tell what the size of each will be, until all movies are encoded.
So this is a good technique for CQ, but not for x-pass.
The only way to use x-pass with this, would be to do what I mentioned earlier, and that is to make a tool that would somehow analyze the sources activity.
And still, I think this won't be accurate, because there's no relationship from the source's activity to what the encoder will create from the source.
So for x-pass, the methods you are describing above, to sample each source and try to predict a size per movie, would be the only approach for an x-pass encode of multiple movies.

-kwag
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  #97  
06-24-2005, 02:29 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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Yes Karl, thats a ver good thought.
And I DO understand you Luis.

Read my 2pass-way suggestion:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....r=asc&start=84

Thats exactly the approach.

As if you do a 2pass on all streams as ONE the bitrateallocation will be proportinally much more efficient!

So IF we got 3 Movies

1. Very calm Theatre Movie
2. A medium complex Commedy Movie
3. A high complex action movie.

Lets assume we do find out that we would need ca. 1500kbit average on ALL to fit all of them to one DVD-R.

The first movie would come out in a MUCH better Quality compared to the third as the SAME avg Bitrate was determined which causes a Q/VBR curve proportionally to the movie complexitivity and avg bitrate.

So if you would encode ALL using the same avg in ONE pice. The bitrateallocation VBR/Q curve would take the whole movie into account.

Did I got it? I think so .... I never needed 2pass so In Q mode its a technique I do already for a long time. But as it seems that (after mencoder) now 2pass is still the goal in here, so this above is the other way around for obtaining CONSTANT Quality on a number of Streams one ONE target media size.

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  #98  
06-24-2005, 02:59 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Did I got it? I think so ....
Crystal clear

-kwag
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  #99  
06-24-2005, 03:11 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Yes Karl, thats a ver good thought.
And I DO understand you Luis.

Read my 2pass-way suggestion:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....r=asc&start=84

Thats exactly the approach.

As if you do a 2pass on all streams as ONE the bitrateallocation will be proportinally much more efficient!

So IF we got 3 Movies

1. Very calm Theatre Movie
2. A medium complex Commedy Movie
3. A high complex action movie.

Lets assume we do find out that we would need ca. 1500kbit average on ALL to fit all of them to one DVD-R.

The first movie would come out in a MUCH better Quality compared to the third as the SAME avg Bitrate was determined which causes a Q/VBR curve proportionally to the movie complexitivity and avg bitrate.

So if you would encode ALL using the same avg in ONE pice. The bitrateallocation VBR/Q curve would take the whole movie into account.

Did I got it? I think so .... I never needed 2pass so In Q mode its a technique I do already for a long time. But as it seems that (after mencoder) now 2pass is still the goal in here, so this above is the other way around for obtaining CONSTANT Quality on a number of Streams one ONE target media size.

Don't understand.
So let's take same example.
1 - If we encode samples with same frame number (not same %), with same CQ value no matter how it be (or Q, really I don't know the difference), we will obtain 3 samples of differents KBs. All with same duration as we suppose all have same fps.
2 - This different value is doubt to different complexity or motion in the picture.
3 - Now sum (film1_KB + film2_KB + film3_KB) and divide each film_KB by the result:
film1_KB/(film1_KB + film2_KB + film3_KB)= proportion_film1
film2_KB/(film1_KB + film2_KB + film3_KB)= proportion_film2
film3_KB/(film1_KB + film2_KB + film3_KB)= proportion_film3
4 - Now take whole media size minus audio and overhead = TotalSize
and multiply it by each proportion:
TotalSize*proportion_film1=film1Size
TotalSize*proportion_film2=film2Size
TotalSize*proportion_film3=film3Size
5 - With this values you can calculate avg btr for a 2P VBR encoding for each movie, and your 3 movies will have same visual quality.

I think so, but you know about this, a lot than me.

I like CQ encodes, much than 2P VBR ones.
But there is people for all tastes, and other that don't like so TMPGEnc.
I think that people can have 1 oportunity to select whatelse of 2 methods, both obtaining best quality possible. And this is with "available space proportional allocation" (ASPA).
BTW did you like ASPA name for all this stuff?
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  #100  
06-24-2005, 05:00 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
Don't understand.
So let's take same example.
1 - If we encode samples with same frame number (not same %), with same CQ value no matter how it be (or Q, really I don't know the difference), we will obtain 3 samples of differents KBs. All with same duration as we suppose all have same fps.
And here begins the problem. Read my link above. We have to find out HOW the bitrateallocation will be don one %based Samples.
What happens if NTSC people want to author a DVD including progressive 23.976 and 29.97 content .... I mean, IF you want to give people much more encoding possibilities like ovp and 2pass, then this "same fps" issue above will already lower that approach in its purpose.

Quote:
2 - This different value is doubt to different complexity or motion in the picture.
3 - Now sum (film1_KB + film2_KB + film3_KB) and divide each film_KB by the result:
film1_KB/(film1_KB + film2_KB + film3_KB)= proportion_film1
film2_KB/(film1_KB + film2_KB + film3_KB)= proportion_film2
film3_KB/(film1_KB + film2_KB + film3_KB)= proportion_film3
4 - Now take whole media size minus audio and overhead = TotalSize
and multiply it by each proportion:
TotalSize*proportion_film1=film1Size
TotalSize*proportion_film2=film2Size
TotalSize*proportion_film3=film3Size
5 - With this values you can calculate avg btr for a 2P VBR encoding for each movie, and your 3 movies will have same visual quality.
Hmmmmm .... I cant follow you still do obtain a Q based proportion out of slices using a fixed framecount? In which relation does that framecount stand to? Every Movie gots a diff. amount of frames.

Quote:
I think so, but you know about this, a lot than me.

I like CQ encodes, much than 2P VBR ones.
But there is people for all tastes, and other that don't like so TMPGEnc.
I do Q based encodings using mencoder (yes), Nuenc and most of all using CCE! So nobody has to stuck with TmpgEnc (which still gots its superior tweakable settings AND a very good Quality if set correctly .... If speed doesnt care).
I have been reading in here about these prediction Issues on HC. OK that one would be a reason to encode using 2pass (if theres really an issue).
BUT that Encoder is still in Beta State and I think it makes more sense that the code author looks into the Q based encoding routines (IF theres really an issue which till now I havent testet, and for shure not proofed).

There are so many People and their unique tastes, but .... I think developements should result in the best output and there's even on HC till now not the final conclusion given, .... but anyway, this subject in here MAKES fun

Quote:
I think that people can have 1 oportunity to select whatelse of 2 methods, both obtaining best quality possible. And this is with "available space proportional allocation" (ASPA).
Available space allocation?? IF then its an out of Quality based varaible Bitrate allocation, as thats the deep procedure/purpose (just IMHO - as I understood it like that ).

Quote:
BTW did you like ASPA name for all this stuff?
? A name for still an approach in "thoughts" where we are just rumbling around big theoretics.

Lets wait for WELL proofed facts. Do you know how long it took for CQmatic to run in its special routines to work in a state it should be?
Or till the Roba/Robshot CQ theory approach was running as it does now.

For me personally I see no sense in 2pass if time (not someone) proofs that its superior then CQ mode. Thats why I still beleive in more potential of integrating that (already known) approach of full merged movies slicing in CQmatic/Calcumatic.

This is/was NO offense to your thoughts!
Its just a reminder for "US" to still keep our feets on the ground - till things really do work!
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