Quantcast Resizing Xvid Back to DVD? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
06-21-2005, 05:22 AM
the viking the viking is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 174
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi,
some time ago I captured some old vhs movies and converted them
to "high quality" XviDs.(2-3 CDs pr movie).The resolution was 640x272.

Now I am trying to put one of them back on a DVD,using FitCD for
resizing.But,when I use overscan 0,FitCD crop to 638x272,(screenshot 1),
using overscan 1,FitCD crop to 624x272,(screenshot 2),but
setting overscan to 0 and go one step down on the resizing button to
704x432 ,seems to give the "best" results,as the picture only been
cropped two pixels in height.(screenshot 3).

Anyone have any comments,whats the "correct" way to do this?

Thanks





Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Site Staff / Ad Manager
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
06-21-2005, 07:16 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by the viking
Anyone have any comments,whats the "correct" way to do this?
The correct way is to never select "DVD720" in the destination dropdown but "DVD704". Active area of a DVD is less than 720 (712 in PAL and 708 in NTSC, or the opposite), so encoding 720 pixels is just wasting bits.

So in your case, if you absolutly want to use DVD720, go on the third case.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
06-21-2005, 08:51 AM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
702 in PAL and 711 in NTSC
Reply With Quote
  #4  
06-21-2005, 09:01 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
702 in PAL and 711 in NTSC


Reply With Quote
  #5  
06-21-2005, 02:21 PM
Boulder Boulder is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Lahti, Finland
Posts: 1,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You could also do your own cropping instead of using FitCD's accurate cropping. A/R error less than 2% shouldn't be noticable. Also check whether your sources are resized as ITU compliant or non-compliant. It can make a big difference, about 2.5% I think. You can check it by comparing the output of ITU resizing checked and not checked.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
06-21-2005, 02:44 PM
the viking the viking is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 174
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok thanks.
the reason I unchecked the ITU button,was that the source AR
was wrong when it was checked.and after unchecking its right as you
can see on the pics.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
06-21-2005, 05:27 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by the viking
the reason I unchecked the ITU button,was that the source AR
was wrong when it was checked.and after unchecking its right as you
can see on the pics.
That is exactly how I process for any source : I verify with and without ITU to see which give a ratio that is closer to a "standard" (1.77, 1.85, 2.21, 2.35...) and decide according to this.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
06-22-2005, 04:26 AM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
@ Phil

Sorry to interrupt this. But typical Xvid Divx inputs are NEVER ITU based! As they got a PAR of 1:1 and thats not ITU but PC Square.

The ITU says that a digital signal has to be sampled at 13.5mhz in 53,333us and a active area of 52,000us WITHIN the 53,333us.

So ITU compilant inputs are:

720x576(480)
704x576(480)
352x576(480)
352x288(240)

as all of these do base on 13,5mhz like your SAP reproduces.

768x576 or 640x480 are also PAR 1:1 inputs and NOT ITU based as sampled using ...

768x576 = PAL 14,769mhz and 52.000us
640x480 = NTSC 12,306mhz and 52.006us

The ITU option in FitCD ONLY is useful if youre in doubt if your DVD source at 720 width i.e. is mastered WRONG using a simple stupid stretching from 702px (52,000us) to 720px (53,333)



But in the case if youre in doubt (and thats what I guess you wanted to say) if your XVID source is resized in a freaky way by the person who encoded it, then ... well you can only guess and repair-resize that source by manual calcs.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
06-22-2005, 04:46 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Sorry to interrupt this. But typical Xvid Divx inputs are NEVER ITU based! As they got a PAR of 1:1 and thats not ITU but PC Square.
Yes. But you suppose there that people that did the xvid (never I) did apply the ITU correction when they processed the source. It is very rarely the case. Trust me...

Quote:
But in the case if youre in doubt (and thats what I guess you wanted to say) if your XVID source is resized in a freaky way by the person who encoded it, then ... well you can only guess and repair-resize that source by manual calcs.
If, once setting 1:1 as source A/R, FitCD says that the source is 2.41 without ITU check and 2.35 with it, what would you choose ? No need to do manual calcs there.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
06-22-2005, 05:53 AM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
I WOULD choose 2.41:1! And Ill show you the maths why

In case of a 720x576 DVD Source the XVID will be generated and resized as followed:

Cropping the black bars overhead of 720x576 = 720x326

Now desqueezing to PAR 1:1 mpeg4

720 * (128/117) = 788 = 788 x 326 px

788/326 = an AR of 2,417:1 ! = That is the fact of that 720x306 Movietreatingarea content - SO thats why I will choose 2,41 in your case!


Thats because a 720x576 DVD will never be 768x576 at PAR 1:1 its 788x576

You see ...

Quote:
That is exactly how I process for any source
I dont hope so, as this would mean your encoding ARs out of Divx/xvid Sources have been messed up.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
06-22-2005, 06:16 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Lahti, Finland
Posts: 1,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by the viking
Ok thanks.
the reason I unchecked the ITU button,was that the source AR
was wrong when it was checked.and after unchecking its right as you
can see on the pics.
You need to check the visual output.

Even some high-budget DVDs have to be treated as non-ITU compliant, for example, Lord of the Rings: Return of the King EE PAL is one of them, and if I remember correctly, the two other movies are as well.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
06-22-2005, 06:18 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
I WOULD choose 2.41:1!

If you process like this FitCD will ouput a target (aimed to be put on a DVD, so including the PAR correction from 1:1 -> DVD704) that is also 2.41.

The original movies is 2.35 -> you have a dirtorted DVD !

Quote:
I dont hope so, as this would mean your encoding ARs out of Divx/xvid Sources have been messed up.
Not at all. I processed like this for ANY source, including DVDs because there is no other way to find if a DVD is ITU or not !

DVD -> cropping original black borders included in the DVD -> see if resulting film area A/R is closer to a standard value with and without ITU case checked and choose according to this.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
06-22-2005, 06:35 AM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
Well I do hope we dont speak way off
My Encodings (sources DVD and correct ITU based captures) are all ok

So a fact is ....

Do take your 720x576 Stream and crop of manually the black bars.

IF for example these Black Bars do really result in a 326 heigth MovieArea and the 720px also are filled out with Active Movie Arepixels THEN you DO have a Stream at 2.41.1 ! see above.

BUT you "could" be right as this could be a procedure for testing the origs correct PAR/ITU encoding! Thanks Phil ...... Lets test that on some DVDs!
How often did you recognise on orig DVDs such ITU compilant mistakes?

Or The companies do tell the AR Output based on 625/50 525/60 Equipments! As we know that of 720 only 702@PAL or 711@NTSC will be shown.

I ALWAYS was in doubt IF almost all of these consumer DVDs are mastered properly in their PAR!


@ Boulder

Imagine that! At least these Movies should have been mastered properly!

I remember when I talked to a Videocompany here in Düsseldorf. They wanted from me a Graphic for a DVD Menue.

Request was: A Photoshop generated Image at 720x576!!!! *lol
I told them that I want to generate it at 768x576, squeeze it to 702x576 incl. added bars to 720x576.
And these Professionals did tell me that Full PAL is 720x576 WHERE such graphs have been painted directly to --------- WOW!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
06-22-2005, 06:50 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Do take your 720x576 Stream and crop of manually the black bars.
A common 2.35 A/R movie has a 72 pixels high border. That is the film area will be 432 (anamorphic) = 432 / 4 * 3 = 324 (close to 326 so).

Quote:
THEN you DO have a Stream at 2.41.1 ! see above.
I'm sorry but your maths sound too strange to be correct
I'm quite sure that when I "correct" the 2.41 to 2.35 by unchecking the ITU box, the picture seems less distorted. But it's hard to tell anyway (0.5% of difference between the two !)

Quote:
How often did you recognise on orig DVDs such ITU compilant mistakes?
Can't tell. I do this anytime so I process without noticing the result.

Quote:
As we know that of 720 only 702@PAL or 711@NTSC will be shown.
That's correct that A LOT of DVD have also tiny left/right borders (very often not equal -> that is whay I use FitCD and not MovieStacker).

Quote:
I ALWAYS was in doubt IF almost all of these consumer DVDs are mastered properly in their PAR!
I do also but perhaps my way of handle this is wrong.

Quote:
And these Professionals did tell me that Full PAL is 720x576 WHERE such graphs have been painted directly to --------- WOW!
Tell them to do VCD and to generate their picture into VCDEasy. Even this shareware give correct size to still frames
Reply With Quote
  #15  
06-22-2005, 03:02 PM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
As I tought:


I do load a clean 720x576 DVD Source into FitCD non-anamorph. The Source is signet out as 1.333:1 ... 4:3
These 720 do got full Video Information along the width!

So if I do desqueeze that, it will Result in 788px!

Means .... 788/576 = An AR of 1.368:1 .... correct resized to PAR 1:1!

Means ....: It seems that the signed out ARs have to be understood under 652/50 or 525/60 circumstancies. As the analogue (i.e. PAL-) TV will only show the 768 out of those 788px.... and by that the recognisable Result on TV are These signed out 1.333:1

So IF a 720 width ... 4:3 ... 1.333:1 ... DVD was encoded correctly to Xvid by keeping ALL source width pixels, that will Result in a 1.368:1 at PAR 1:1 Videostream.
Means: If encoding back to DVD we DO keep the origined 1.368:1 AR and NOT switching manually to the correct "assuming" 1.333:1
And thats also the case of that Xvid at 2.41:1 as it shurely was encoded right out of the whole 720 width picture source area.


In FitCD the baloonhelp does also mention that:


So IF a 720x576 DVD results in 1.333:1 or 1.778:1 that means a wrong "generic PAR" was used when producing the VideoStream.

Generic PAR in PAL = 1,0223:1
(Results out of 720/704, means simple upsizing from 704 to 720)

Correct PAR in PAL = 1.09402:1


Also a reason WHY your pictures at unchecking ITU seem less distorted could be that on a for instance 4:3 PC Screen the Systemresolution is set to 1280x1024 as its not 4:3 ..... thats why I did set my 19" CRT Screen to 1280x960
But as told I dont know your Screen and IF its visible area is really 4:3 ... some TFTs do got diff. visible areas.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
06-22-2005, 04:07 PM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
Ahh

Scharfis_Brain gave me an expalantion at german gleitz board:

1. Original Film Footages never will be scanned (the telecine process = digitzing the film roll) in their whole active picture area.
Overscan also here is taken into count.

1.333:1 and 1.778:1 are no Film Formats. - ok we knew that.
Its just the interpretation of non-anamorph and namorph TV proportions.

Generally used

1.37:1 (academy format)
1.66:1
1.85:1 - ok we knew
2.35:1 - we also knew

now 1.37 * 1.3333 (the akademy format getting non-anamorphed) = 1.82:1 means almost 1.85:1 so the overhead up to the 1.85:1 is cropped when doing the telecine out of the orig film roll.

720x576 will be desqueezed to non anamoprh 788x576 which is 1.37:1 means the 720x576 keeps exactly the academy format.

And at 16:9 the 720x576 will be desqueezed to nonanamoprh 1050x576 means 1.82:1 so also here almost the 1.85:1 (overscanned).
Reply With Quote
  #17  
06-22-2005, 04:37 PM
the viking the viking is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 174
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Inc.wrote:
Quote:
So IF a 720 width ... 4:3 ... 1.333:1 ... DVD was encoded correctly to Xvid by keeping ALL source width pixels, that will Result in a 1.368:1 at PAR 1:1 Videostream.
Means: If encoding back to DVD we DO keep the origined 1.368:1 AR and NOT switching manually to the correct "assuming" 1.333:1
And thats also the case of that Xvid at 2.41:1 as it shurely was encoded right out of the whole 720 width picture source area.
So then the conclution will be,check the ITU button.
Cause as stated earlier here,if I check it,FitCD will add 72 pxl borders
on top and bottom.and if I understood things right ,its the same 72 pxl
borders that we crop off when making a XviD from a DVD.

And if the ITU is unchecked,FitCD will only add a 64 plx border at
top/bottom,wich again will lead to a disorted "stretched" picture.

This was the short summary! (I hope)
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Vinicius is back, as user. kwag Off-topic Lounge 10 11-04-2004 11:20 PM
KVCD: audio would cut out and back in? ZaG Video Encoding and Conversion 18 01-28-2004 07:16 PM
Last few seconds not played back? girv Players, DVRs, Media Centers 0 01-20-2003 07:38 AM
KVCD: back it up using the kvcdx2? Paul0889 Video Encoding and Conversion 0 12-02-2002 09:33 PM
How do I get VCDEasy to let me go back a chapter? andybno1 Authoring VCD, DVD, Blu-ray 0 11-30-2002 05:45 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:44 AM  —  vBulletin © Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd