Quantcast Codecs: Best MPEG2 Encoder for Metrics Objectives Tests - Page 2 - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #21  
08-14-2005, 01:17 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyphon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Yes it is.
Lol, that is a litle vague there Phil. Is that yes it is written in Fortran or yes it is based on Libavcodec, oooorrrr. . . Both!.
It is written from scratch in Fortran.
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  #22  
08-14-2005, 01:23 PM
Sagittaire Sagittaire is offline
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Anyway if you think that TMPGEnc or other encoder could be better with your setting (custom matrix, open/close GOP, DC ...) post your result ... and make visual comparison if you want ...

For exemple TMPEGEnc target bitrate is not very good and can be better I think ...
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  #23  
08-14-2005, 01:25 PM
Zyphon Zyphon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
It is written from scratch in Fortran.
Thanks for clearing that up Phil.
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  #24  
08-14-2005, 01:26 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire
I test MPEG2 codec quality and not standalone players compatibility.
libavec codec does not even respects the MPEG2 definition provided by the Motion Expert Group. But if you can't understand that I can't help.
I let you read that FAQ where you can learn a lot about MPEG2 encoders :
http://www.tns.lcs.mit.edu/manuals/mpeg2/FAQ
Jump to question 49 :

Quote:
49. Is so-and-so really MPEG compliant ?

A. At the very least, there are two areas of conformance/compliance in
MPEG: 1. Compliant bitstreams 2. compliant decoders. Technically
speaking, video bitstreams consisting entirely of I-frames (such as
those generated by Xing software) are syntactically compliant with the
MPEG specification. The I-frame sequence is simply a subset of the full
syntax. Compliant bitstreams must obey the range limits (e.g. motion
vectors limited to +/-128, frame sizes, frame rates, etc.)and syntax
rules (e.g. all slices must commence and terminate with a non-skipped
macroblock, no gaps between slices, etc.).
Sorry to drop this thread there. I use to encode to burn the result on a DVD (and read it afterwards), not just to use my PC.
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  #25  
08-14-2005, 01:43 PM
Sagittaire Sagittaire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire
I test MPEG2 codec quality and not standalone players compatibility.
libavec codec does not even respects the MPEG2 definition provided by the Motion Expert Group. But if you can't understand that I can't help.
I let you read that FAQ where you can learn a lot about MPEG2 encoders :
http://www.tns.lcs.mit.edu/manuals/mpeg2/FAQ
Jump to question 49 :

Quote:
49. Is so-and-so really MPEG compliant ?

A. At the very least, there are two areas of conformance/compliance in
MPEG: 1. Compliant bitstreams 2. compliant decoders. Technically
speaking, video bitstreams consisting entirely of I-frames (such as
those generated by Xing software) are syntactically compliant with the
MPEG specification. The I-frame sequence is simply a subset of the full
syntax. Compliant bitstreams must obey the range limits (e.g. motion
vectors limited to +/-128, frame sizes, frame rates, etc.)and syntax
rules (e.g. all slices must commence and terminate with a non-skipped
macroblock, no gaps between slices, etc.).
Sorry to drop this thread there. I use to encode to burn the result on a DVD (and read it afterwards), not just to use my PC.
For the last time it's not standalone players compatibility ... If you think that TMPGEnc is compatible with more standalone players than QEnc ... speak about this problem with libavcodec developper. Anyway I think that Libavcodec (and particulary QEnc) is compatible with the large majority of players ( I test 12 differents player with Libavcodec and no problem ... perhabs with the number 13 ... lol)

but if that can please to you ... lol
Libavcodec : 99%, 90% ... 10% (perhabs less ... i don't know)
TMPEGEnc : 99.99% (perhabs more ... i don't know)

For the last time it's not standalone players compatibility test ...
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  #26  
08-14-2005, 02:08 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire
For the last time it's not standalone players compatibility
I CAN READ ! Are you sure you can ???
Let my put that in different words : libavcodec do not produced mpeg2 streams ! It is not an MPEG2 encoder
You want to compare MPEG2 codecs, don't you ? Libavec codec is not.
Quote:
speak about this problem with libavcodec developper
I don't need to speak about this with them. They wrote in plain letter in the doc that the lib should not be use to produce mpeg ! Read the doc !
Do I have to discuss that with all user of the lib that can't read a manual ?
(unfortunally mencoder docs is not online anymore, but you surely have a doc on your disc if you use it).

Quote:
Anyway I think that Libavcodec (and particulary QEnc) is compatible with the large majority of players ( I test 12 differents player with Libavcodec and no problem ... perhabs with the number 13 ... lol)
Something "not compatible" does not say exactly something never accepted. Even on these 12 players, you would/will suffer problems with some streams encoded with libavcodec.

Quote:
Libavcodec : 99%, 90% ... 10% (perhabs less ... i don't know)
TMPEGEnc : 99.99% (perhabs more ... i don't know)
You can put 100% for tmpgenc. And something below this is NOT compliant.

Quote:
but if that can please to you ... lol
What do please me is that you find this "laughtable". Let me laught my turn .
You make me remind about these days when "compatible PC" were classified according to their "compatibility percent" against IBM PS1. Under 95% there weren't considered as compatible. Above there were.
but that means that with a PC that was "97%" compatible only, potentially 3% of the software didn't work on it. Would you call that a "PC" if you own it nowaday ? Can you imagine buy a computer that can run only 99%, 90%... of available programms ?

Quote:
For the last time it's not standalone players compatibility test ...
For the last time : you are just loosing your time. But it seems you don't mind
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  #27  
08-14-2005, 02:40 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Let me ask you a question : you say you fix the maximum bitrate but all the encoders give you a file that is almost the same size. Are you sure you are not fixing the average bitrate ?

Edit: I'm convinced that you are mistaken average bitrate and maximum bitrate in all the thread. No problem, that occurs often. This just make me laught a little more... :P

I just want to add also something :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire
Nero Burning Room is the most used (IMO the best) CD/DVD burner in the world
The problem is that the metrics give the victory to DVDDecrypter
(metrics here are PIE/PIF)
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  #28  
08-14-2005, 03:55 PM
Sagittaire Sagittaire is offline
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Quote:
I CAN READ ! Are you sure you can ???
Let my put that in different words : libavcodec do not produced mpeg2 streams ! It is not an MPEG2 encoder
You want to compare MPEG2 codecs, don't you ? Libavec codec is not.
Libavcodec seem able to encode with a large variety of codec (MPEG1, MPEG2, DivX3 or MPEG4 ASP). Libavcodec seem able to produce DVD compliant MPEG2 stream. I don't know if an "MPEG2 analyse flux" exist but my Mencoder.m2v seem compliant. QEnc 0.61 seem produce DVD compliant MPEG2 stream too ...


Quote:
Let me ask you a question : you say you fix the maximum bitrate but all the encoders give you a file that is almost the same size. Are you sure you are not fixing the average bitrate ?
the challenge your best encoding with less that 1800 Kbps or 28125 Ko for m2v files. 1800 Kbps / 28 125 Ko are the maximum limte bitrate.

It's a challenge : if you can make better encoding with TMPGEnc (surelly possible) you can make test.
1) perhabs with better target bitrate (1787 for TMPEGEnc.m2v)
2) perhabs with better matrix for you
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  #29  
08-14-2005, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire
Libavcodec seem able to encode with a large variety of codec (MPEG1, MPEG2, DivX3 or MPEG4 ASP). Libavcodec seem able to produce DVD compliant MPEG2 stream. I don't know if an "MPEG2 analyse flux" exist but my Mencoder.m2v seem compliant. QEnc 0.61 seem produce DVD compliant MPEG2 stream too ...
I bolded all importants words in your sentense. I won't add other things.

Note: I used to work on MPEG2 standartization when it was in the labs 15 years ago. I know a little about what is compliant and what is not. Even if I lost a lot of my knowledge now

Note2 : at this time I was one of the "lab rats" that did subjective tests to validate what "objective tests" found. And trust me... human eyes and maths equations are not good companion in this domain. Thousands of dollars have been put in these subjectives tests, because they were absolutly necessary.

Quote:
the challenge your best encoding with less that 1800 Kbps or 28125 Ko for m2v files. 1800 Kbps / 28 125 Ko are the maximum limte bitrate.
Okay, so please use correct words because this is very confusing :
"1800 Kbps / 28 125 Ko are the maximum limte average bitrate".
"maximum bitrate" is an other thing and first read of your contest conditions gives the idea that you limit the "maximum" birate to 1800.

Quote:
1) perhabs with better target bitrate (1787 for TMPEGEnc.m2v)
2) perhabs with better matrix for you
I don't have time for that right now (my two computers are encoding 24/7 since two weeks) but asap I will test some idea I have aimed to have the best result for the metrics whatever the quality I obtain in the end
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  #30  
08-15-2005, 04:52 AM
Sagittaire Sagittaire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
You should take a look here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16073 for some insights about visual quality
Update with KDVD PAL "six hours" TMPGEnc Template CQ 67 highest quality and 1803 Kbps ... not very better for metric and more blur for my eyes.


Quote:
Let my put that in different words : libavcodec do not produced mpeg2 streams ! It is not an MPEG2 encoder. You want to compare MPEG2 codecs, don't you ? Libavec codec is not.
Really ... lol

Questions Answers with Nic - QEnc developper

Sagittaire to Nic
"QEnc (and libavcodec) make MPEG2 DVD compliant stream ?"

Nic to Sagittaire
"Yes they do. The compatibility from libavcodec has a got a lot better over the last year or so due to some good patches."

So if you don't prove the opposites ... for me:
1) The encodings make with QEnc and libavcodec are DVD compliant. If your encoding are not compliant it's because you don't use the good setting.
2) QEnc and libavcodec are certainely very better and by far than TMPGEnc for metric (more than 1.5 dB for OPSNR and more than 2.5 for SSIM ... it's a very high difference for this quality level) in all situations for all MPEG2 DVD compliant stream (not only with HPII trailer)


Quote:
at this time I was one of the "lab rats" that did subjective tests to validate what "objective tests" found. And trust me... human eyes and maths equations are not good companion in this domain. Thousands of dollars have been put in these subjectives tests, because they were absolutly necessary.
http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~zwang/files/papers/vssim.pdf
Perhabs in your labs in 15 years ago ... lol. Speak about that with video codec developpers or better with SSIM developpers ... not with me. Anyway and for the last time my challenge is objective test and not subjective test ...

The purpose of this challenge is to determine which is the best codec for the metrics and only for the metrics : this test will not speak about subjective visual quality. If you want subjective visual comparison download sample and compare yourself ...
TMPGEnc 1800 Kbps
QEnc 1800 Kbps
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  #31  
08-15-2005, 05:55 AM
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If you want to make tests where Quality is the point then you should consider all specs like the ITU PAL par as 128/117. ok ... (as I do understand your test as a max. possible quality getting one and as YOU are the one who did set the rules)

Quote:
Libavcodec seem able to encode with a large variety of codec (MPEG1, MPEG2, DivX3 or MPEG4 ASP). Libavcodec seem able to produce DVD compliant MPEG2 stream.
I (was) a fan of libavcodecs mpeg2 encodings and my 20-30 latest mencoder full encodings from the last two month using special parameters did keep the min/max's.
But what about encoding #31 ? Im even waiting for an encoding incl. a peak (purpose of my tests: watching if some developement on that has been made by the ffmpeg group)

But I would NEVER lay my hands on a general constant compilant mpeg2 stream output support of mencoder. My SAP supports it 100%, but its just imho no subject for a community where people do have that much individual SAP brands where about 10% do have problems playing back them. THATs the reason why we dropped mencoder big discussions in here. But to be fair - I dont know what has been changed on that core since then!

Quote:
I don't know if an "MPEG2 analyse flux" exist but my Mencoder.m2v seem compliant. QEnc 0.61 seem produce DVD compliant MPEG2 stream too ...
Use Bitrateviewer and you'll see drops and peaks of bitrates and Quantizers.
In Qenc Nic integrated XVID Ratecontrol for obtaining more compilant outputs - but afaik problems do still exist. Petercheat was the only one who went into the main RC core of Libavcodec and did some impressive mods, but no further developing was made as he seems to be off.

It seems that mencoder Group or ffmpeg.org did integrate the new Ratecotrol, but anyway, its not an mpeg2 encoder for general 100% confiable mpeg2 compilant encoding purposes (just imho)

Do make your tests also on movies whch contain parts of zooming to a tv screen incl. a hughe amount of tv noise like "Poltergeist" ... these parts are the best food for testing encoders spikes/peaks.

To clearify this: I didnt tested Qenc since 1-2 Month so I do not dement Nics words. But it seems you do tests using your own SAP, but youre not shure whats going on within Qenc etc. thats why you have to ask Nic.
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  #32  
08-15-2005, 06:23 AM
Sagittaire Sagittaire is offline
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Quote:
If you want to make tests where Quality is the point then you should consider all specs like the ITU PAL par as 128/117. ok ... (as I do understand your test as a max. possible quality getting one)
don't change anything I wrote 128:127 if you want (edit) ... I use PAR only in avisynth rezise pre-process and approximation is here only to have absolute mod16 resolution for real image (720*320 here). I use standardised DAR (4/3 PAL) only for MPEG2 encoding. Anyway don't change anything for my test because dgindex don't use DAR but square pixel 1:1 and you must use my avysynth script for encoding ...


Quote:
Use Bitrateviewer and you'll see drops and peaks of bitrates and Quantizers.
In Qenc Nic integrated XVID Ratecontrol for obtaining more compilant outputs - but problems do still exist. Petercheat was the only one who went into the main RC core of Libavcodec and did some impressive mods, but no further developing was made as he seems to be off.
Perhabs peak problem for 6-8 Mbps encoding but generaly not for 1,8 Mbps Average encoding. For a good security with peakbitrate use maxbitrate = 8000 or less if you want with QEnc in 2 pass mode. Anyway for my Mencoder.m2v peakbitrate is 5760 Kbps (ifoedit information stream). But it's true ... it's very difficult to use mencoder in real situation. QEnc is very better for that with very good 2 pass mode and very good quality ...
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  #33  
08-15-2005, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire

Quote:
Let my put that in different words : libavcodec do not produced mpeg2 streams ! It is not an MPEG2 encoder. You want to compare MPEG2 codecs, don't you ? Libavec codec is not.
Really ... lol

Questions Answers with Nic - QEnc developper

Sagittaire to Nic
"QEnc (and libavcodec) make MPEG2 DVD compliant stream ?"

Nic to Sagittaire
"Yes they do. The compatibility from libavcodec has a got a lot better over the last year or so due to some good patches."
@Sagittaire,

Please stop the trolling
avcodec DOES NOT create compliant MPEG2 files.
The developers of avcodec acknowledge it, and it's clearly documented in their documentation. And we can testify to that.
QuEnc is just a front end to avcodec. Nothing more
No matter what QuEnc does, FreeEnc does, NuEnc does, the final product is the same. trash
They ALL rely on the same library.
Do you understand now
For me, this thread is over (and useless )

-kwag
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  #34  
08-15-2005, 08:27 AM
Zyphon Zyphon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
For me, this thread is over (and useless )

-kwag
Karl, you must have read my mind, I was going to suggest locking this thread as to me it is pointless and serves no purpose to us here as we all know the issues regarding Libavcodec based encoders.

Our time is better spent helping others who need to learn KVCD not wasting our time debating with Sagittaire about whether Libav encoders can produce compliant Mpeg2 streams when we all know they cant.
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  #35  
08-15-2005, 09:05 AM
Sagittaire Sagittaire is offline
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report bug at Nic if you are specific problem ... perhaps that you have good information for him ...

Quote:
It is compliant. To the best of my knowledge. Once upon a time it wasn't, but several patches made it a lot better. Also it depends on what part you mean. The actual M2V data or the VOB muxing. If people aren't convinced, they should tell me why and i'll fix it.
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  #36  
08-28-2005, 04:01 AM
Sagittaire Sagittaire is offline
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Hanck315 (MPEG2 HC developper) check this files and say "they are compliant". I use me_range=128 with mencoder for make MPEG2 compliant stream:

Quote:
For Main level, ISO 13818-2, table 7-8 and E-8:
horizontal range: -1024 : 1023.5 (f_code =
vertical range: -128 : 127.5 (f_code = 5)
here little demo with mencoder:
Serenity Trailer
Video:
720*576 16/9 PAL format 2.35
Real image mod8 720*432 with mod8 720*72 blackborders
MPEG2 MP@ML 3000 Kbps highest quality
Audio:
DD 2.0 16bits 48Khz
AC3 224 Kbps

if you have problem with this trailer with your hardware player send me a PM.
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  #37  
09-02-2005, 05:16 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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I've been reading this thread for 15 minutes or so, and I don't know if I wanna cry or if I wanna laugh.
It seems to me that we've been, once again, comparing apples with oranges...
@Sagittaire
I was one of the "believers" in Mencoder and libavcodec when we found out about it here at kvcd.net.
I did hundreds of tests with Mencoder in the old days.
And the same goes for QuEnc, NuEnc and every xxEnc based on libavcodec.
I had inumerous arguments with many kvcd members trying to defend libavcodec.
And I did that until one day I opened my eyes and saw that even though it's amazingly fast and has an amazing bitrate allocation, Mencoder compliancy is less than mediocre.
Bitrate spikes occur so often on noisy sources that I couldn't believe my eyes when I was looking at bitrate viewer .
Because I didn't want to quit on Mencoder too soon I decided to write on the mailing lists to see if the developpers could help.
And then I saw what the problem was: even the developpers didn't know that much about Mpeg1/Mpeg2.
Worst than that: they didn't care about Mpeg1/2.
They were simply looking for Mpeg4 and not much more than that .
That was when I rest my case with Mencoder/libavcodec because the developpers themselves told me that the problems affecting Mencoder were also present on libavcodec.
I returned to re-test libavcodec encoder some time ago, when Nic included the Xvid ratecontrol in QuEnc.
But what would you know? Even with Xvid R/C QuEnc didn't seem able to limit the bitrate spikes...
The best I ever saw around was actually NuEnc where PeterCheat rewrote many bits of the libavcodec R/C.
But unfortunately, Peter left when he was about to finally fix it 100%.
I guess the developpers didn't like the changes he made when he tried to submit his sources.
Bottom line, if you want to use Mencoder or any other libavcodec frontend be my guest.
But then, one day you might want to take one of your movies to one of your friend's place to watch it after dinner or something similar and you might find yourself unable to play it on your friend's player even thought it's a branded product.
Just my oppinion.
I'll stick to HCEnc for the moment being.
Cheers
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  #38  
09-02-2005, 05:34 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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This is the nicer post I read since a long time.

Note : be carefull Rui, some people reported unexplained problems with HC on their SPA.
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  #39  
09-02-2005, 06:43 AM
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I can sign all that rds_correia say as myself did hundred of test with mencoder.
Also I did give up, tired when I saw developpers didn't fix rc with each new release.
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  #40  
09-02-2005, 08:11 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
This is the nicer post I read since a long time.

Note : be carefull Rui, some people reported unexplained problems with HC on their SPA.
Hya Phil ,
Well I was just being honest because this is exactly what happened to me.
And once again you were right and I was wrong since you were telling us we were wrong right since the begining of the testings and we just didn't listen to you.
And now I'm worried about what you are telling me.
I can recall some weeks ago Karl also advised me that some folks can't play HCEnc's output on their SAPs.
Would you know a thread where I can find more info on that?
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