Quantcast KVCD vs. OGM - my Report - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
08-15-2003, 06:03 PM
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Ok,

I see this forum and i like it very much, in special because it have forum's for the soft i use HeadAC3/DVD2AVI/Avysynth/VDmod.

And of course, i went to KVCD and i must admit it was a method i didn't new at all , I have heard of many formats, tried many but i didn't knew of this one KVCD.

So i went to make a test KVCD Vs. OGM (With Xvid Codec)

Considerations on this test:

I only want ONE CD, no more no less
I want Good Quality Based On one CD

Movie: Final Fantasy
1H 42M
16:9
25fps
PAL

In XviD i use a Mode2 90minutes 1CD (895mb), and have encoded with the best settings as far as my knowledge (based on koepi's recommendations, xvid developer), and get a good result, good quality, the resolution was 608x320 and the sound was enough (Ogg Vorbis Quality 2 - 96kpbs, with subtitles and chapters) the time to encode it was about 9Hours in my AMD 2.0GHZ, I use my AGP to connect to my TV so the final result I qualify as VERY GOOD.


Then i do the same thing but with KVCD, based on the user's Guide with 1CD of 80Minutes MODE2 (795MB) Because my DVD Player don't support 90Minutes Cd's (1st loosing point) I encoded the sound in MP2 With 128kpbs because in 96kpbs it sounds terrible.
I choose the resolution 320x450 to fit in one CD, create the avisynth script based on KVCD templates and start encoding, it takes me about 14H in My AMD 2.0GHZ, It went very good on DVD Player but Quality it was ACCEPTABLE.

Final:

OGM - 90Minutes CD - Mode 2 - 895MB
KVCD - 80Minutes CD - Mode 2 - 795MB (Less 100MB)

Ogg Vorbis sound - Q2 (96KBS) equal to 128kpbs MP3 - Less Space
KVCD MP2 - 128Kpbs (96 sound Very BAD) - More space

OGM Resolution - 608x320 - aspect error - 0.6
KVCD Resolution - 320x450 - aspect error - 0.1

OGM Encode time - 9Hours
KVCD Encode time - 14Hours

Take note that i use the slowest settings in Xvid to get the best of it as VHQ4/Chroma/Ultra High/QTP And the same in KVCD Highest (slowest).


Conclusion:

I think for one CD Ogm container with Xvid is still the way to go, you can see above why, KVCD gets an acceptable quality in one CD but not so good as in OGM (My opinion).

KVCD takes the lead if you go for 2CD's, yes great results, in special for the awesome resolution of 704x576.


Waiting for your comments
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  #2  
08-15-2003, 06:22 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Sniffer,

It's a good idea to do comparissons like that. I myself used to do a lot o DivX encoding before I got my DVD burner and moved to KDVD. Unfortunatelly your comparisson isn't fair because you KVCD had almost 13% less space than Xvid (considering the CD space difference). And resoultions were not the same in both encodes. Did you try 544x480 instead of 528, or encoding using MPEG2 instead of MPEG1, or doing the VCD header trick (or SVCD header trick)?

Also about KVCD: did you use the Motion Adaptative script (or any script)? Scripts play a very important paper in KVCD encoding, even from DVD sources. Also the best setting for KVCD is not the highest, incredibilly it produces worst quality than high quality. Use high quality if you're not using the motion adaptative script, or motion estimation if you are using this script.

Also using XVid you have the joys of post-processing, i used FFDShow a lot before to add noise and post-process my encodes. Of course this can't be done on stand-alone, altrough some stand-alone do some kind of post-processing.

Please fix this stuff and redo comparisson, It's a really interesting subject!!!

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  #3  
08-15-2003, 06:53 PM
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My Sony DVD Player don't read 90minutes CD'S ....so i can't get A real good Comparation, i'm doing the test regarding my situation.

With a higher resolution i wouldn't be able to fit all my movies in one CD, for instance K-19 Takes about 2H 11Minutes, yes the movie stacker was used, and KVCD template as well with TMPEGEnc.


So in my situation i try to tuned at possible the both of methods.
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  #4  
08-15-2003, 06:58 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Ok, but of course you could vary the resolution according to the movie... If I remember correcty, Final Fantasy is about 90 min, maybe you could use a higher res for this one...

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  #5  
08-15-2003, 08:30 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffer
Conclusion:

I think for one CD Ogm container with Xvid is still the way to go, you can see above why, KVCD gets an acceptable quality in one CD but not so good as in OGM (My opinion).
Try to put your Ogm container into your standalone DVD player, and give me some news

The purpose of KVCD is to replace a DVD and so, to be read in standalone player.

What you do is comparing a sport car and a station wagon, forgetting they don't have the same goal nor the same drivers.
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  #6  
08-15-2003, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffer
Conclusion:

I think for one CD Ogm container with Xvid is still the way to go, you can see above why, KVCD gets an acceptable quality in one CD but not so good as in OGM (My opinion).
Try to put your Ogm container into your standalone DVD player, and give me some news

The purpose of KVCD is to replace a DVD and so, to be read in standalone player.

What you do is comparing a sport car and a station wagon, forgetting they don't have the same goal nor the same drivers.

1 - Ofcourse OGM don't run in a DVD Player , altought by AGP you can connect your PC to a TV.

2 - I know they are quite different, but some people as me ask. What format should i choose?? So i make a test to get some results regarding the two of the most important ones VCD Or DivX, some go one way, some go another.

3 - Yes i will Update the test to a more real comparation between OGM and KVCD, I think it's worthy. the same movie


Best Regards
Sniffer
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  #7  
08-15-2003, 08:48 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffer
What format should i choose??
I understand you, but the problem is in this question in fact.

As for my example with cars, you don't ask "what car should I choose" without adding at the end of the question "for the needs I have".

Here is the same thing. For the need we have, there is no choice : it's KVCD or KVCD (lets forget VCD and SVCD )
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  #8  
08-16-2003, 03:30 AM
dazedconfused dazedconfused is offline
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Hi Sniffer,

I think your test is interesting too. But like the other guys already said, you seem to be comparing apples and oranges, and you also seem to be showing a small unfair bias towards your apples (Ogm/xvid) instead of the oranges (kvcd), due to the shortcomings of your particular dvd player.

Let's pretend that I was doing a similar comparison like yours...1CD xvid versus 1CD kvcd. It would not be fair for me to say that I only have a Pentium-1 100Mhz PC with 32MB Ram that can't play Ogm/Xvid correctly, so therefore, KVCD is better and it wins since it works on my dvd player. However, that is sort of what you are doing since your DVD player does not play 90minute CDRs and you counted that as as strike against KVCDs. Please keep in mind that some people do have DVD players that do play 90-99minute CDRs and even support 48khz mp2 audio too, which helps the mp2 audio sound even better @ 128kbps (I'm lucky, my player does both of these things!).

So when you say...
Quote:
Because my DVD Player don't support 90Minutes Cd's (1st loosing point)
...that's a bit biased. Maybe you just need a more versatile dvd player my friend.

You also said that you are pretty new to KVCDs, so before you make your final decision on who wins "KVCD vs Xvid", you should make sure that you are using the exact latest methods (Motion-Adaptive script, etc) that others here are currently using on their KVCDs to ensure that you get the best possible quality. As vmesquita said, you should also probably be able to use a higher resolution for your 1CD kvcd, like 352x576 or 480x576 or maybe even 528/544x576 (but as a PAL user, 528/544x may be too high for you to hope for on a 1hour 42minute movie). I realize that you are stuck using a PAL source and resolution, so you are somewhat limited by it and will never be able to get results quite as good as if they were coming from an NTSC source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffer
I use my AGP to connect to my TV so the final result I qualify as VERY GOOD.
As Dialhot pointed out, this is exactly the kind of hassle that we try to avoid with our KVCDs that work in our dvd players...this is exactly why we prefer our KVCDs so much. Who wants to worry about running wires from their PC to their TV (which are often both in different rooms of the house!). Most people don't have their TV right next to their PC...and most people would rather relax in their living rooms while watching movies instead of on their computers. And yes, I know there are a few divx/xvid capable dvd players coming out now, but from what I understand, they're a bit buggy and don't even support all the "bells and whistles" capable of those formats yet...and these 1st generation divx dvd players might never be able to support some divx features properly due to hardware constraints. Plus you'll need to upgrade the firmware of these players often to support the constant new divx changes/features that are always happening...that's another hassle to worry about. So similar to how you thought it was a hassle that your dvd player doesn't support 90minute CDRs, most of us KVCD users find it a much bigger hassle to view divx/xvid on our PCs or by connecting the PC to a TV. Some day there will hopefully be a great truly divx/xvid/kvcd-compatible standalone dvd player that handles everything under the sun! Sign me up for one of those if that day ever comes!

Anyways, you wanted feedback, so I guess you got it! A real mouthfull! Just make sure that your comparisons are done fairly and equally, otherwise they aren't quite as valid (although, whatever works for you is valid for you! ...every format has some benefits...and also some drawbacks). But your test is still interesting and I look forward to hearing about your new test results. Although I'm affraid that the only person whose mind you might possibly change here would be yourself. As you can tell, we do love our kvcds here.

Best regards,
-d&c
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  #9  
08-16-2003, 05:38 AM
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1 - I'm not trying to make a unfair comparation, telling this is better and that is worst, the test above it's like that regarding my situation although i will make a fair one and will put some images in here

My new test Will be this one: FAIR COMPARATION

OGM - 90M CD - MODE2 - 895MB
KVCD - 90M CD - MODE2 - 895MB (The DVD from my girlfriend support it, it was a gift from me - Support MP3/CD-R/CDRW/VCD/SVCD)


OGM Sound - 128kpbs - Surround2 2channels
MP2 Sound - 128kpbs - Join Stereo, because dual channel repart the bits for each channel 64kb, wich i don't agree with the guide.

OGM Resolution - 608x320 Mpeg4
KVCD Resolution - 528x576 Mpeg2


Obs: In KVCD i will use CCE Because i think it gives the best results (Quality), in many test comparations between TMPEGEnc and CCE, CCE is better.


Any remarks or ideas are welcome.

I will do a PRO test with images and equal comparations, if you find good enough you can make a stick of it, to members get a good idea of what they are dealing with.
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  #10  
08-16-2003, 06:55 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffer
OGM Sound - 128kpbs - Surround2 2channels
MP2 Sound - 128kpbs - Join Stereo, because dual channel repart the bits for each channel 64kb, wich i don't agree with the guide.
Once again you plan to do unfair tests ! Surround2 is not compatible with joint stereo (as Surround). In this conditions no need to test : I can tell you that OGM sound will be better !

Quote:
OGM Resolution - 608x320 Mpeg4
KVCD Resolution - 528x576 Mpeg2
608*320 = 194560 - 528*576 = 304128.
You plan to have 1.5 more pixels to encode for the KVCD than for the OGm. There again, no need to test, I can predict the result for you : OGM better.

Quote:
Obs: In KVCD i will use CCE Because i think it gives the best results (Quality), in many test comparations between TMPEGEnc and CCE, CCE is better.
Hints : why do you think we are using TMPGEnc here ? Just for the fun ?

Quote:
I will do a PRO test with images and equal comparations, if you find good enough you can make a stick of it, to members get a good idea of what they are dealing with.
Pro test with such advantages given to OGM.

Pro test = EXACT same thing to encode and EXACT same way to watch them (the picture on a TV set is'nt the same than on a PC monitor + the size as to be the same, and that are only some elements)

Note: I used to be a part of the test team of MPEG2 when it was designed 15 years ago. I did some "subjective visual tests" whose purpose was to find best ratio between compression and quality loss.
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  #11  
08-16-2003, 07:19 AM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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@DialHot
I guess you misunderstood the resolution thing: he is probably doing 528x480 with black bars. With XVid you can use any res you like (and generally 1:1 aspect) so 608x320 should be without blackbars. So in this case KVCD has an advantage.

@Sniffer
Use TMpgEnc and MPEG1 in the test also... That would be nice to see... People here generally use Mpeg1 and TmpgEnc. i however use CCE a lot since I do only KDVDs.

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  #12  
08-16-2003, 07:38 AM
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Dialhot, man you are difficult to deal with


Yes in Xvid It will be without black bars because is one way to give better quality to the image.

Yes In Xvid we can put the resolution we want , BUT WE CAN'T make the same in KVCD, so i will put the best KVCD resolution to 895MB CD.

I use Ogg vorbis Surround2 2 channels Because it's the best way for this format, and I think in KVCD dual channel isn't the best way because it splits the bitrate , and Join Stereo gives better quality and small file size wich give me space to improve the video (If you like MP3, why DibRom (Lame Developer) always use Join stereo instead of stereo or any other in his lame codec and preset's??)

Ok, Vmesquita, TMPEGEnc will be used , não há problema algum.


Again: I'm doing this test to solve some doubts of my own, and i know the formats are not equal, and I can't make evreything equal in both.....That's not possible at all...But we can squezzee the best of the both and compare them in the final result.
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  #13  
08-16-2003, 08:03 AM
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It will be used for KVCD

TMPGEnc with MPEG1
Resolution see above
Latest Script from KWAQ
CQMatic will be used as well
High Setting because highest is worst (as far as i hear)

Sound: Surround Instead of Join Stereo


It will be used On OGM

Koepi's Codec
Ogg Surround 2
VHQ4/6 UltraHigh/Mpeg/QTP/CHROMA And alternative Curve.
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  #14  
08-16-2003, 08:56 AM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Just a correction:
If you are using the latest kwag Avisynth 2.5 script (the motion adaptative script) use Motion Estimation instead of High Quality. It is reported to produce better quality with this script. And goes faster! Manda ver!

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  #15  
08-16-2003, 10:59 AM
vhelp vhelp is offline
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@ All..

Let be nice to one another. This is a FUN place, not to mention, the idea
of this (by chance) comparison too Respect each other


@ Sniffer..

Quote:
OGM Resolution - 608x320 Mpeg4
KVCD Resolution - 528x576 Mpeg2
Yes, I agree w/ Dialhot on this too.. but I think that pixel'wise, its not
that much of a factor to me, cause in the end, it will all depend on the user's
skill level

But, I as I agree w/ Dialhot, I also feel that the resolution should be
the same, if you're gonna peform a test comparison, just so that every
block is block for block compared (encoded, that is )

.
.
But, unfortunately, w/ divX, you have a Boarders issue to content with.
Also, Aspect Ratio plays a VERY important part to this comparison as well
And, if the two are not sync'ronised, well, you know what to expect, or at
least to factor in your final analisys.

But, the test should show as close to specs as possible for an as fair an
comparison as can be (even though these two formats are Apples and Nuts)

Some examples of equality should be:
* Audio - - should be the same
* resolution - - should be the same
* bitrate - - well, should be close
* CDr media
* DVD player
* TV output - - well, this is tricky, cause** ...

** TV output is dificult to compare with because you have TWO items that
need to be fed into the TV, and only ONE can, DVD player ( MPEG-1/2 )
while the divX in question can't
Also, again, becuase of the nature of how DVD player respond to a given
MPEG source, you also have to factor into the equation the AR and resizing
that the DVD player puts out
Even if the user OUTPUTs his/her divX source via TV-OUT it won't be the
same because A) there is not proper AR and B) there is no proper Resizing
and C) the Color Space output from the graphics card is not the same as
the DVD player's or wont be able to properly utilize/set the Color Space
for the OUTPUT of the divX source, ..to make a valid assessment of final
quality.

All in all, the above (Sniffer's comparison) is a fun idea and still worthy
of continuing.

Well, I've said enough. I'm boring you all w/ my retentativeness hehe..
But, at least give the above some thought, and..

Have a great day
-vhelp
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  #16  
08-16-2003, 12:24 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmesquita
@DialHot
I guess you misunderstood the resolution thing: he is probably doing 528x480 with black bars. With XVid you can use any res you like (and generally 1:1 aspect) so 608x320 should be without blackbars. So in this case KVCD has an advantage.
I know. But black or not, these bars have to be encoded. And they take some place (few comparing to image area, but the space is not null).
The XVID movie HAS to be encoded with the exact same black bars and movie area. Else the comparison is impossible. But you're right on one point : the KVCD has the advantage and not OGM on this point.
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  #17  
08-16-2003, 12:27 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Vhelp,

I think sniffer ideia is more like "I don't care if I am going to play using TV-Out or a stand-alone or what resolution/audio I'll use, what will give me more quality in 1-CD when watching on TV"?

And I think it's a interesting topic. Of course Ogm and KVCD have it's differences and it's almost impossible to get them in exactly the same conditions. So I guess it makes sense to push them to the limits to see what performs better in 1-cd, using each one's strenghts.

Of course, TV-Out will resize, different TV-Outs will have different performance, and depending on the playback filters, you can enhance the ouput of OGM. And some DVD Players give better picture than others. But the idea is not answer "X is better than Y" and that's it, but the question I put in the first paragraph.

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  #18  
08-16-2003, 12:35 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffer
Dialhot, man you are difficult to deal with
Has I told you I did some _real_ tests on the MPEG2 codec during its official evalutation by Motion Picture Expert Group. That's why I'm a little "tense" when we speak about comparisons

Quote:
Yes in Xvid It will be without black bars because is one way to give better quality to the image.
You see : you admit that theses black bars aren't harmless

Quote:
Yes In Xvid we can put the resolution we want , BUT WE CAN'T make the same in KVCD, so i will put the best KVCD resolution to 895MB CD.
Why ? Resoultion isn't free ? I guessed it was.

Quote:
I use Ogg vorbis Surround2 2 channels Because it's the best way for this format, and I think in KVCD dual channel isn't the best way because it splits the bitrate
So use Stereo rather than Dual Chanel !

Quote:
and Join Stereo gives better quality and small file size wich give me space to improve the video
Quality won't be the same because you will compare Surround2 versus not Surround sound !
If you want to compare, use Stereo (not join stereo) for both ! (or Surround2 for both).
But there you use the best format for OGM (surround2 and the worst ever format for KVCD (mono excepted !)

Quote:
(If you like MP3, why DibRom (Lame Developer) always use Join stereo instead of stereo or any other in his lame codec and preset's??)
Because MP3 is for MUSIC and they don't have any surround chanel

Quote:
Again: I'm doing this test to solve some doubts of my own, and i know the formats are not equal, and I can't make evreything equal in both....
Yes you can ! You don't want too, its not the same thing. There is only one point about the resolution supposed not free in XVID. And I have a big doubt on this!

Quote:
.That's not possible at all...But we can squezzee the best of the both and compare them in the final result.
Again : CCE and joint stereo are far to be the best settings offered by KVCD.

Edit : after having read the last post of vmesquita, okay, I admit that there are two possible ways to see the question. My way is "is KVCD or XVID the best encoding process ?", and your way "with wich format will I have the biggest fun to watch my movie".
That's correct; I appologize
So please, just do your tests with MPEG1 TMPEGEnc and stereo for KVCD because these are the best settings for this. And let see what happens.
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  #19  
08-20-2003, 11:43 AM
GFR GFR is offline
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may I give my two cents on this debate:

From the couple of tests I've done with xvid and kvcd (not so controlled), I guess you'll get very different conclusions if your source is animation than if it's live action (in my experience it seems xvid is better for animation and kvcd is better for live action).

Maybe it's not the encode (alone), it can be related to the post-processing (dering) in ffdshow so to be absolutely fair you'd have to test the kvcd with a software player (through ffdshow) and the TV out card.
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