Quantcast Why Not an Easy DVD2KVCD Without DVD2SVCD at All? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
11-26-2003, 12:19 AM
MrTibs MrTibs is offline
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Like many others, I have found DVD2SVCD hard to use and flaky. It seems that DVD2KVCD would be a simplier process, why not do your own. (I'll help if you need it.)
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  #2  
11-26-2003, 04:20 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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You find DVD2SVCD difficult to use ???

It's the more convenient all-in-one tool ever ! It handles DVD ripping, subtitles, audio stream selection, AC3 and DTS audio support, KVCD and SKVCD authoring, avisynth scripts editing... You won't be abble to make a tool making all that easily.

As soon as you have a decent dvd2svcd.ini with all parameters setted to do a correct KVCD, you make all your next videos in 2 or 3 clicks. I do not know where you find that difficult.

That's the plugin that you all want to use with it that make things difficults. Do not use it ! All problems and bugs reported here are tied to that plugin (sorry azel).

The only problem of DVD2SVCD is the file size prediction but there is NO software that can handle it correctly. Kwag even dropped CQMatic because it can't success everytime.
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  #3  
11-26-2003, 09:29 AM
jorel jorel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot

It's the more convenient all-in-one tool ever !
yes.....i can call d2s
magnific

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  #4  
11-26-2003, 09:39 AM
MrTibs MrTibs is offline
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I was really thinking about new users and people like my mother. I have followed the various DVD 2 KVCD guides and produced several CD's that wouldn't play on my DVD player. I had to go back in and remux with TMPGEnc to get them to work.

DVD2SVCD's settings are complex at best and the interface is well...designed by a programmer. It is a very effective tool but I don't think just "anyone" could use it. (A quick look at the DVD2SVCD forum can show you that.)

Recently I purchased a DVD to VCD program that was amazingly easy to use. Although the results didn't even approach KVCD's quality, the program was failsafe. I also played around with EasyVCD with is very good. Anyway, I thought that a DVD2KVCCD program would really help people easily produce KVCDs with muss or fuss. I think that if people had an easy to use tool, KVCD would dominate VCD conversion.
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  #5  
11-26-2003, 10:16 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTibs
I was really thinking about new users and people like my mother. I have followed the various DVD 2 KVCD guides and produced several CD's that wouldn't play on my DVD player. I had to go back in and remux with TMPGEnc to get them to work.
Surely because your player needs a VCD header trick and for sure DVD2SVCD can't guess it alone. But how do you want to have an automatic procedure in a software that can guess if a header trick is necessary ?
Note: DVD2SVCD can do such tricks but _you_ have to ask him to do it. For instance I do MPEG1 SVCD with DVD2SVCD and I do not need to return to TMPGENC.

Quote:
DVD2SVCD's settings are complex at best and the interface is well...designed by a programmer. It is a very effective tool but I don't think just "anyone" could use it. (A quick look at the DVD2SVCD forum can show you that.)
Because WE USE IT FOR KVCD. And the tool do not provide things for that. So we need to change a lot of things before to make the first KVCD. But as I told you, all you need is to set the parameters ONCE, save the ini file and that's all (you also need an avisynth.ini file with our scripts in the last DVD2SVCD release)

Once you did that, all you have to do is to load the ini file (tab "misc" on DVD2SVCD), open your source (tab Conversion), and click on "go".

Quote:
Although the results didn't even approach KVCD's quality, the program was failsafe.
Your tool do a VCD, DVD2SVCD is failsafe also when you do a VCD.

Did you do (S)VCD with it D2S ? Did you read what is written on the first screen that pops up when you open it the first time ? That is a 3-step method to do DVD->SVCD conversion. You can see it on the "About" tab of the program.

An other thing : the tool you used for making a VCD, does it provides DTS audio support ? Subtitles selection ? PAL and NTSC settings ?

Quote:
I also played around with EasyVCD with is very good. Anyway, I thought that a DVD2KVCCD program would really help people easily produce KVCDs with muss or fuss. I think that if people had an easy to use tool, KVCD would dominate VCD conversion.
Be sure about something : KVCD is too complicate for having any newbie understanding it. The problem is not only in a tool that can do it automatically. The problem is also in the playback on a standalone : each player needs a different setting !

There are so much parameters that can make a KVCD to fail : min and max bitrate, header trick, audio samplerate, resolution, video type (mpeg1 or 2...).

What I want to say is that KVCD is definitly not something for "everyone".
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  #6  
11-26-2003, 12:34 PM
Crackhead Crackhead is offline
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I totally agree with Dialhot!!

I wouldn't say DVD2SVCD is a TOTALNEWBIE-friendly tool, but there are tons of guides out there which explain you in detail what to do to get a good encode! This Complete Idiot's Guide is one hell of guide, just as a brilliant example!

And if you read a little bit and are around in this forum or in Doom9's Forum, you will soon get an idea of what all the different settings do and change, and then I would say DVD2SVCD is way far from being a hard-to-use tool!
Take for example me(you could use anyone, even kwag, everyone starts being a newbie ), i was a complete newbie, my brother started the idea of converting the dvds to cds, so he read this and that guide and ended up with an average encode, which isn't bad at all, btw. then i took over his work and first used his settings, but with more and more reading i got more and more knowledges and now i even tried to put pearl harbor on 1cd and managed it with a for me acceptable quality!

And keep in mind: K(S)VCD is very special! If you are a newbie i wouldn't recommend going for a kvcd, since it requires some knowledges about filtering, bitrates, etc.
You see, KVCD basically means getting an entire DVD-movie on 1 80CD-R!! That is indeed much compression, no 1-click-and-go tool will do this job for you. for a newbie i would recommend going for 2/3 standard svcds instead of trying to manage to get a kvcd!
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  #7  
11-26-2003, 03:45 PM
MrTibs MrTibs is offline
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@Dialhot

Quote:
Surely because your player needs a VCD header trick and for sure DVD2SVCD can't guess it alone.
Actually I was taking about KVCD. KVCD and SKVCD are not the same thing even though you and some others to use them interchangeably. ( This includes the author or the DVD2KVCD guide.) Secondly, as it turns out, my DVD player does need the "header trick" but I wouldn't expect the D2S author to get the new "ESP.NET" module, a simple option button could work as well.

Quote:
And the tool do not provide things for that. So we need to change a lot of things before to make the first KVCD.
That is my point exactly. The guides help in making a SKVCD but leave it up to the user to understand and change settings to produce a KVCD.

Quote:
Be sure about something : KVCD is too complicate for having any newbie understanding it.
No it isn't. You think too highly of yourself. The key to KVCD is the Matrix and GOP. Just using Kwag's templates is enough to dramatically improve the quality of any VCD. You may remember that not long ago, there were no "motion adaptive" scripts. A simple AVS script with PixieDust still does wonders.

Quote:
An other thing : the tool you used for making a VCD, does it provides DTS audio support ? Subtitles selection ? PAL and NTSC settings ?
Yes. Yes. Yes

Who cares about the tool that I used, you miss the point entirely. I am not critisizing DVD2SVCD, I am talking about a KVCD, KSVCD, KDVD specific tool.

Quote:
What I want to say is that KVCD is definitly not something for "everyone".
Why not? Although many DVD players have been reported as not compatible not all of those have been tested against standard burned VCDs and SVCDs. I have tested over 20 DVD players and I have never found one that didn't at least play a KVCD at 352x240. I think that the compatability list is much larger than is posted here on this sites. Certainly, I haven't posted all the successful tests I have tried.

FYI, the reason DVD2SVCD was producing bad VCDs is because it was muxing the sound as SVCD. Since the author of the DVD2KVCD using DVD2SVCD guide understood that he was making an SVCD, the process may have been easier. Since I don't rip DVDs and I am not interested in becoming an "expert" in DVD ripping I missed changing the ffmpeg settings. (You may have noticed that there are a "few" settings in DVD2SVCD that need changing in order to get it to produce VCDs.) Of course I was so ready to ask for help when I read all of your kindly helpful posts to newbies. In the end I left the tool for months until I absolutely need to rip a DVD. I saw that someone had produced an DVD2KVCD plugin for DVD2SVCD and I started this thread. But hey, thanks for not failing to live up to your reputation.
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  #8  
11-26-2003, 04:31 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTibs
Quote:
Be sure about something : KVCD is too complicate for having any newbie understanding it.
No it isn't. You think too highly of yourself. The key to KVCD is the Matrix and GOP. Just using Kwag's templates is enough to dramatically improve the quality of any VCD. You may remember that not long ago, there were no "motion adaptive" scripts. A simple AVS script with PixieDust still does wonders.
That's enough to make a KVCD but not enough to be sure that it would work on all standalones !

What about the resolution ? Some players handle only 528*480, others only 544*480, and others handle both ones. How do you want to explain that to a newbie ?

The same for the min bitrate. My player is happy with 64 Kps, a lot of standalone are OK with 300 but some needs 600 MIN !
Again, how do you want to make a newbie understanding that kind of things ?

If you do a "all-in-one" DVD->KVCD tool, what will you choose as min bitrate for instance ?

Quote:
Quote:
An other thing : the tool you used for making a VCD, does it provides DTS audio support ? Subtitles selection ? PAL and NTSC settings ?
Yes. Yes. Yes
What its name ? I do not know it.

Quote:
I am talking about a KVCD, KSVCD, KDVD specific tool.
So do I.
I try to explain you that it's impossible to expect to do a tool that a newbie can use "eyes closed" and obtain a KVCD. There is too much parameters involved.

Quote:
FYI, the reason DVD2SVCD was producing bad VCDs is because it was muxing the sound as SVCD.
What ? DVD2SVCD does only what you ask it to do. How did you change its normal behavior ? Did you read an erroneous guide ? I do not understand that part of your post.

Quote:
You may have noticed that there are a "few" settings in DVD2SVCD that need changing in order to get it to produce VCDs.
Not at all ! Just have to select "VCD" as output type. Or I missed something in your post. Trust me DVD2SVCD does perfectly correct VCD (or SVCD).

Quote:
I saw that someone had produced an DVD2KVCD plugin for DVD2SVCD and I started this thread. But hey, thanks for not failing to live up to your reputation.
As I told just above quite all the latests problems reported here are tied to that plugin. So there is two solutions : no one use DVD2SVCD without it or the ones that do not use the plugin do KVCD without any problem and do not need to ask questions.

But there is one thing that is absolutly sure : the thread "latest optimal script for DVD2SVCD" has 353 reading. So I guess some are using that tool, don't you think ?
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  #9  
11-26-2003, 04:34 PM
Crackhead Crackhead is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTibs
Who cares about the tool that I used, you miss the point entirely. I am not critisizing DVD2SVCD, I am talking about a KVCD, KSVCD, KDVD specific tool.
^^ you see, creating some kind of K(S)VCD/KDVD specific tool would require a program that connects all the different parts of a conversion, basically that is audio conversion, video conversion and muxing. That's exactly what DVD2SVCD does. On default, it uses another settings, so you have to change them, that's exactly what DVD2KVCD does. I can't imagine any easier way to produce a KVCD
ok let's say, you want to bring together these 2 steps, more or less a DVD2SVCD with KVCD settings, so that you can just click on "go" and get an absolutely perfect KVCD. This as you can see out of Dialhot's post is not possible since there are a lot of compatibility issues around which can't be avoided. So you have to put in a few more options to let the user adapt the settings to its standalone. Then are the people, who want to use subs and maybe a second audio track. There are a lot of very long movies out there, so you have to put in the option to put all on 2cds instead on 1. dammit, there are pal and ntsc, you have to include this, hmm what about the people who wants to make a KDVD...authoring is needed...hmm...i would say now we have approx. the same number of options like we have in DVD2SVCD, but with KVCD settings on default....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTibs
No it isn't. You think too highly of yourself. The key to KVCD is the Matrix and GOP. Just using Kwag's templates is enough to dramatically improve the quality of any VCD. You may remember that not long ago, there were no "motion adaptive" scripts. A simple AVS script with PixieDust still does wonders.
I would go even further saying not even the matrix is a key to KVCD, since a KVCD is not more than a plain and simple, but good compressed VCD. Ok, it is out-standard, but that's not the matter. I know better matrices and better avs-scripts for compression, so the only specific thing is the gop-length. Basically I produce my kvcds out of specs, and nevertheless i just need a few clicks to start my encode with D2S since all my standard options are maintained since i set them up the first time..
nonetheless a kvcd isn't easy to create since there are parameters to be set up on different conversions, and these parameters aren't that obvious sometimes.
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  #10  
11-26-2003, 09:17 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackhead
I would go even further saying not even the matrix is a key to KVCD,
It is
There's not one matrix with a "Notch" pattern.
At least there wasn't one when we did it.
Probably now, there are "copy cats" all around
But the original idea and concept was done here at KVCD, and that's been documented

-kwag
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  #11  
11-27-2003, 08:49 AM
Crackhead Crackhead is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwag
There's not one matrix with a "Notch" pattern.
oh didn't know that, sry about it!
but what's that notch pattern?
i noticed it in the name of your matrix, but never heard of what it's doing, didn't even know it has a function :P
you know, I have found matrices that have even better compression than yours and are way different, so just thought the notch matrix is a optimized matrix for compression , my conclusions were to fast for my knowledges
i should have informed me before about it... :P

Greetz, Crackhead
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  #12  
11-27-2003, 09:21 AM
Icarus3000 Icarus3000 is offline
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Which matrices did you find that provide better compression?
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  #13  
11-27-2003, 11:31 AM
Crackhead Crackhead is offline
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so called "bach1"-matrix and the "intra-shifted"matrix, you can find 'em both here.
intra-shifted provides better compression than bach1, but a user said he found a reason not to use intra-shifted, but couldn't remember what it was, maybe something in videoquality, don't know...
so feel free to try out, but don't forget to post your results
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  #14  
11-27-2003, 04:59 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackhead
I have found matrices that have even better compression than yours and are way different
Really
Well, why don't you read here and look at the results: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...highlight=kvcd

Quote from that link:
"Notch-KVCD matrix will give you almost the same results as CCE's Ultra-Low, but much better image quality at least to my eyes."



-kwag
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  #15  
11-28-2003, 05:26 AM
Crackhead Crackhead is offline
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yeah sure, but i didn't speak of cce's ultra low...that one is crap, i agree!
hmm will have a look at my three different favorized matrices including the kvcd notch and post the results, but I'm sure regarding file size, your matrix will lose, so let's have alook if it can provide a satisfactory video quality, or even the best one

besides whatever result i may get, i really appreciate your work and your matrix and script is really recommandable
but you know, without criticism or objective argument, their wouldn't be any progress, so don't take amiss my "propaganda" here
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  #16  
11-28-2003, 06:16 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackhead
but I'm sure regarding file size, your matrix will lose
Yes that's true, because I didn't want to sacrifice quality.
But for quality/size ratio, I think it's still the winner :P
Quote:

besides whatever result i may get, i really appreciate your work and your matrix and script is really recommandable
but you know, without criticism or objective argument, their wouldn't be any progress, so don't take amiss my "propaganda" here
No problem
Criticisms are always good measurements to push the envelope and try to blow away the competition

-kwag
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  #17  
11-29-2003, 11:08 AM
Crackhead Crackhead is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwag
Criticisms are always good measurements to push the envelope and try to blow away the competition
haha yeah that's the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwag
Yes that's true, because I didn't want to sacrifice quality.
But for quality/size ratio, I think it's still the winner
^^ hrhr maybe
just came to my mind: what about the newest optimal script for d2s?
since i'm not into writing avisynth-scripts, i think i did something wrong when adapting the newest script for d2s :P
So if someone could post it plz
will also have a second look at my one later

greetz, Crackhead
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  #18  
11-29-2003, 11:48 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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@Crackhead: Please share your tests and results, I'm curious too...
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  #19  
11-29-2003, 04:52 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackhead
So if someone could post it plz
It seems that you didn't notice that I updated the sticky post in top of the forum with the last MA script yesterday

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7221
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  #20  
11-29-2003, 04:57 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellygoose
@Crackhead: Please share your tests and results, I'm curious too...
I do a test last night and for me the result is always the same : file siez prediction of last release of D2S is completly out of target !

20 tries done, in the second one the value 72 is found as "to low" but in the 4 test the value was... 70 ! And all the tests are like this (76 is to high but three tests after I find 77...)

Finally the encoding is started because the maximum number of tests is reached. The final mpeg size was 730 Mb . 10% below the target.

I redo it currently with CQMatic and it seems that the result will be better.

I dropped D2S a long time ago and I don't think to use it again. Or I will use it for everything except video encoding part.
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