Quantcast Aspect Ratio, Source, Player, TV.. What a Mess! - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
02-02-2005, 07:38 AM
drequena drequena is offline
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Hi all,

So correct setting for pal are 720*576@25fps.

First, what do I have:

- Old tv. 4:3 screen but with a capability of displaying 16:9 by adding black bars (this is a tv menu option). Not good but bearable. Next tv is going to be 16:9 for sure
- DVD player. Unbranded but seems to do a good job on displaying 16:9 on 4:3 if setup to do so (black bars again)
- Sources are 16:9

With kvcd I was using source 4:3 dest 4:3 for aspect ratio on tmpgenc.
Now for kdvd I've an option on source/dest aspect ratios in tmpeng (if I understood correctly)

Should I use source 16:9 dest 16:9 on tmpgeng?
4:3/16:9? 16:9/4:3?
Should I leave this alone at 4:3/4:3as per kdvd template setting?
If the latter, should I do some resizing in avisinth?

What if a source is 2.11:1?

As you can see I'm definiitively lost here...

PD: of course feel free to point any past threads, manuals, etc. I don't seem to be succesful when using search with numeric strings.

Thanks in advance
Dei:Bit
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  #2  
02-02-2005, 07:46 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drequena
- Old tv. 4:3 screen but with a capability of displaying 16:9 by adding black bars (this is a tv menu option). Not good but bearable. Next tv is going to be 16:9 for sure
Then you should prepare the future and do all your DVD in anamorphic (what you call 16:9 but it is NOT the correct word).

Quote:
Should I use source 16:9 dest 16:9 on tmpgeng?
4:3/16:9? 16:9/4:3?
If you sources are anamorphic then you mut select 16:9 for sources
If you plan to buy an 16:9 TV, and as your current TV is abble to display anamorphic picture, then you should use 16:9 also for the target.

Quote:
Should I leave this alone at 4:3/4:3as per kdvd template setting?
For an A/R point of view, doing 16:9 / 16:9 is the same than doing 4:3 / 4:3. But in the later case, the "anamorphic" flag is not inserted in the MPEG2 stream, and you have to switch your TV (or standalone) manually in 16:9 mode.

It's better to have these flags generated (and inserted) in the video, so use 16:9, 16:9.

Quote:
If the latter, should I do some resizing in avisinth?
You should use a script anytime !
But be carrefull : avisynth scripts are all 4:3 ! Then you will need to use "4:3" for sources (and not 16:9). The destination will be 16:9 is you asked to the script to resize the picture with an anamorhic A/R, or 4:3 if you asked to it to do a 4:3 A/R.

I know, it's a little complicated at first but in fact it is very simple...

Quote:
What if a source is 2.11:1?
That is why I told you than 16:9 is NOT the correct words. The things to see is : is your source anamorphic or not ?
Anamorphic can be whatever from 1.85 to 2.35:1
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  #3  
02-02-2005, 09:14 AM
drequena drequena is offline
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Quote:
Then you should prepare the future and do all your DVD in anamorphic (what you call 16:9 but it is NOT the correct word).
hmm.. anamorphic (ana shaped??) never mind, just feeling a bit dizzy with so much A/R stuff right now.
Anyway I understand now anamorphic is any non 4:3 proportion having width > heith

Quote:
For an A/R point of view, doing 16:9 / 16:9 is the same than doing 4:3 / 4:3. But in the later case, the "anamorphic" flag is not inserted in the MPEG2 stream, and you have to switch your TV (or standalone) manually in 16:9 mode.

It's better to have these flags generated (and inserted) in the video, so use 16:9, 16:9.
Wich minds me.. I've the Gataka dvd bought in Spain. This is a two sided dvd with one different format of the movie at each side. I can't remember wich A/R they are but one displays good on a 4:3 screen whil the other display vertically streched on the same screen.
Why would they do that? Couldn't them have used this "anamorphic" flag instead?

Quote:
You should use a script anytime !
But be carrefull : avisynth scripts are all 4:3 ! Then you will need to use "4:3" for sources (and not 16:9). The destination will be 16:9 is you asked to the script to resize the picture with an anamorhic A/R, or 4:3 if you asked to it to do a 4:3 A/R.
uff..!!
Of course I'm triying to understand the optimal posted scripts here
So scripts are not anamorphic except when they are?
Lets see: would then be the same if I didn't do any resizing in avisynth, then select source 4:3 target 16:9 in tmpgenc? If I understand I would end up with a correctly flagged anamorphic target. Or would I loss some quality by resizing in tmpgeng istead of avisynth?

Quote:
I know, it's a little complicated at first but in fact it is very simple...
For me it's being quite a hard bone to crunch

Quote:
Quote:
What if a source is 2.11:1?

That is why I told you than 16:9 is NOT the correct words. The things to see is : is your source anamorphic or not ?
Anamorphic can be whatever from 1.85 to 2.35:1
aha, that was the key to the anamorphic thing!
One cuestion: does the anamorphic flag include some information on the actual proportion so de player can handle adecuately these non 16:9 anamorphic video streams? If so I could select 16:9/16:9 on tmpgenc and forget? but tmpgeng only handles 1:1, 4:3, 16:9 and 2,11:1...
hmm.. maybe the stream should be resized to one of these in avisynth prior to be fed to tmpgenc

What a wonderful lot of things I'm learning!! Thakns a lot for all your advice

I'm starting to think that this thread maybe belongs to another forum at kvcd.net. Please, feel free to move it if adecuate.

Thanks,
Dei:Bit
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  #4  
02-02-2005, 10:04 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drequena
Anyway I understand now anamorphic is any non 4:3 proportion having width > heith
Hum... not really.
An anamorphic picture is a widescreen picture distorted to enter into a 4:3 square. The counterpart is a letterboxed picture (insteed of distort the frame, you add black borders, like your TV set does when you ask him to display what you call a 16:9 picture).

So an anamorphic picture IS 4:3

Quote:
I can't remember wich A/R they are but one displays good on a 4:3 screen whil the other display vertically streched on the same screen.
vertically streched = what I called above "distorted".
Now you see the diff between a 4:3 (letterboxed) picture and an anamporphic one

Quote:
Why would they do that? Couldn't them have used this "anamorphic" flag instead?
For sur they did ! You surely had settigns problem (either on the TV or the standalone).

Quote:
Lets see: would then be the same if I didn't do any resizing in avisynth, then select source 4:3 target 16:9 in tmpgenc?
If you use a script, resize with the script ! Tmpgenc resizign is awfull.

Quote:
For me it's being quite a hard bone to crunch
Use a script including the "Gripcrop" command. In this you have two optional boolean parameters called "source_anamorphic" and "dest_anamorphic". By settign them to "true" or "false" accordign to you needs and whishes, the script takes care of all, and you don't have to worry about anything.

Quote:
One cuestion: does the anamorphic flag include some information on the actual proportion so de player can handle adecuately these non 16:9 anamorphic video streams?
Anamophic handles only 16:9 (1.77) to 4:3. All other formats have more or less large black borders hard coded in the source. I mean that a 1.85 picture is turned intot a 1.77 by adding a little black border. And so on...

Quote:
hmm.. maybe the stream should be resized to one of these in avisynth prior to be fed to tmpgenc
Stop thinking about what tmgenc does or not as it does it so badly that you musn't do them with it. Think only in avisynth script words. It will ease the things a lot.
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  #5  
02-02-2005, 11:50 AM
drequena drequena is offline
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Quote:
An anamorphic picture is a widescreen picture distorted to enter into a 4:3 square. The counterpart is a letterboxed picture (insteed of distort the frame, you add black borders, like your TV set does when you ask him to display what you call a 16:9 picture).
No, I don't call it that any longer, these are anamorphic pictures from no on

Quote:
So an anamorphic picture IS 4:3
So that's why you always end up encoding to a 4:3 (720*576 for PAL) proportion independently of the target A/R!! You get a distorted picture that, being apropiately flagged as anamorphic, is going to be "counterdistorted" (bera with me) by the standolone.
Incidentally this was going to be my next question

Quote:
Now you see the diff between a 4:3 (letterboxed) picture and an anamporphic one
Along the correct terminology

Quote:
Why would they do that? Couldn't them have used this "anamorphic" flag instead?
Quote:
For sur they did ! You surely had settigns problem (either on the TV or the standalone).
Will check what actual picture proportions this two sides of the dvd have. As I understand things right now I cannot see the need for including both..

Quote:
Use a script including the "Gripcrop" command. In this you have two optional boolean parameters called "source_anamorphic" and "dest_anamorphic". By settign them to "true" or "false" accordign to you needs and whishes, the script takes care of all, and you don't have to worry about anything.
In wich filter would gripcrop be included? I couldn't find gripcrop documentation at http://www.avisynth.org/AviSynthManual nor in the function names column at http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises

.... googling .... googling ....

Well, finally I found GripFit_YV12.zip wich contains a grip.dll wich in turn implements gripcrop. Problem is: it doesn't contain any docs, only binary, license and source...

It seems to me that this should be a fairly common operation so, whats the deal?

Quote:
Anamophic handles only 16:9 (1.77) to 4:3. All other formats have more or less large black borders hard coded in the source. I mean that a 1.85 picture is turned intot a 1.77 by adding a little black border. And so on...
And you can always add these using AddBorders in avisynth. Ok I understand.

Quote:
Stop thinking about what tmgenc does or not as it does it so badly that you musn't do them with it. Think only in avisynth script words. It will ease the things a lot.
Ok, so the only thing to do on tmpgenc A/Rwise is to set both source and target to 16:9 in order to not perform any resizing but get an appropiately "anamorphic" flagged output

Thanks,
Dei:Bit
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  #6  
02-02-2005, 12:03 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drequena
So that's why you always end up encoding to a 4:3 (720*576 for PAL) proportion independently of the target A/R!! You get a distorted picture that, being apropiately flagged as anamorphic, is going to be "counterdistorted" (bera with me) by the standolone.
You're a fast learner

Quote:
Will check what actual picture proportions this two sides of the dvd have. As I understand things right now I cannot see the need for including both..
Generally such discs have a fullscreen (pan and scanned, no borders) and a widescreen (anamorphic, with black borders). Some people can't stand black borders. That is why such disc exists.

Quote:
Well, finally I found GripFit_YV12.zip wich contains a grip.dll wich in turn implements gripcrop. Problem is: it doesn't contain any docs, only binary, license and source...
Quote:
And you can always add these using AddBorders in avisynth. Ok I understand.
Really fast learner

Quote:
Ok, so the only thing to do on tmpgenc A/Rwise is to set both source and target to 16:9 in order to not perform any resizing but get an appropiately "anamorphic" flagged output
Correction : if you use a script, then you have to set the source to 4:3.
If in this script, you configured gripcrop to do "dest_anamorphic=true" then you have to put the dest to 16:9, else you the dest will be also 4:3
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  #7  
02-03-2005, 05:31 AM
drequena drequena is offline
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Quote:
Generally such discs have a fullscreen (pan and scanned, no borders) and a widescreen (anamorphic, with black borders). Some people can't stand black borders. That is why such disc exists.
That's exactly the case. You're right

Quote:
Correction : if you use a script, then you have to set the source to 4:3.
If in this script, you configured gripcrop to do "dest_anamorphic=true" then you have to put the dest to 16:9, else you the dest will be also 4:3
Would any choize make any difference? as far as I understand this affects only who's making the flagging of the stream as anamorphic. Any resizing/distorting is being actually taken care by avs. right?

I could really use any proper documentation for gripcrop (or whole gripfit_YV12 for that matter). The only thing I found is a post here pointing to another post describing the gripfit command v 0.1 from SansGrip.

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2292

Is this the same beast, maybe with a name change?

SansGrip's websit doesen't seem to have anythig related either..

http://www.indeus.com/sansgrip/avisynth

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  #8  
02-03-2005, 05:55 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drequena
Would any choize make any difference? as far as I understand this affects only who's making the flagging of the stream as anamorphic. Any resizing/distorting is being actually taken care by avs. right?
Yes and not. Choising 4:3 or 16:9 in tmpgenc only affects the "anamorphic" flag in the streams because the video arrangement method is set to "center' (or fullscreen, no difference here). That means that we tell to tmgenc to not care about A/R, and we ask it because we know that this aspect is taken in account by the avs script.

Quote:
My intension was to give you the link to this thread but it seems I forgot to paste it in my previous answer
There is no other doc. You just have to read all the thread because the filter changed a little after first tests and so did the usage.

Note: FYI we do not use gripcrop generally, but we use a tool (fitcd) that give to us the correct resize/addborder lines according to the source and the destination we want. If you wish you can try to learn it also. But that makes a lot of things at a time.
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  #9  
02-03-2005, 06:58 AM
drequena drequena is offline
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Quote:
Choising 4:3 or 16:9 in tmpgenc only affects the "anamorphic" flag in the streams because the video arrangement method is set to "center'
Ok that makes sense.

Quote:
There is no other doc. You just have to read all the thread because the filter changed a little after first tests and so did the usage.
Well, not a very throgouth documentation indeed. I had to peek at the c++ sources in order to detemine if PAL source picture size is also considered for getting default "souce_anamorphic=true" and "dest_anamorphic=true" .

Code:
bool GripCrop::IsAnamorphic(GripCrop::STANDARD standard, const Dimensions& dim, AVSValue def)
{
	if(def.Defined())
		return def.AsBool();
	if(!dim.width.Defined())
		return false;

	int w = dim.width.AsInt(), h = dim.height;
	if(NTSC == standard && 720 == w && 480 == h)
		return true;
	if(PAL == standard && 720 == w && 576 == h)
		return true;

	return false;
}
See, I'm not a c++ programmer so I wont try to look at crop_round_width , crop_round_height, resize_round_width, resize_round_height , luma_threshold and samples parameters at the sources. I asume these are uncommon switches not needed by beginners as I am

Phil, this has been a very iluminating conversation. Not the kind of "set this and that" but the kind that makes one understand how things work and why. This is what I think is needed for beginners so we can start making our own informed decisions.

Again , thanks a lot

PD: now I've a lot of testing to do and after that I'll look for the correct forum to post questions on other obscure matters, such as interlacing
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  #10  
02-03-2005, 07:06 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drequena
Well, not a very throgouth documentation indeed. I had to peek at the c++ sources in order to detemine if PAL source picture size is also considered for getting default "souce_anamorphic=true" and "dest_anamorphic=true"
Look at my location ! I'm in PAL area too.

Quote:
I asume these are uncommon switches not needed by beginners as I am
You just have to know that a lot of avisynth filters need to have picture size divisible by 2, 4 or even 16. These paremeters in gricrop are for changing default behaviour if you want to force it to produce dimensions rounded to 1 insteed of 4 (the default, il I remember well).

Quote:
after that I'll look for the correct forum to post questions on other obscure matters
lol

Quote:
, such as interlacing
99% of the PAL DVD are progressive 'even if DVD2AVI says the oppsosite, so don't worry...
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  #11  
02-03-2005, 08:54 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
99% of the PAL DVD are progressive 'even if DVD2AVI says the oppsosite, so don't worry...
Indeed.
I only have one DVD which is not progressive.
But I have been told that music concerts DVDs are mostly done in interlaced.
But since this is the AVI part of the forum maybe drequena was talking about TV captures.
BTW, thank you both for such a constructive thread.
It is a reference for further newbies in need of help.
Cheers
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  #12  
02-03-2005, 10:35 AM
muaddib muaddib is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Correction : if you use a script, then you have to set the source to 4:3.
Hi Phil,

I don't understand the reason for that.
What is the problem feeding TMPG with an AVS stream that has no anamorphic flag but is intended to be anamorphic, and set/inform TMPG that the source IS anamorphic
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  #13  
02-03-2005, 12:47 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muaddib
What is the problem feeding TMPG with an AVS stream that has no anamorphic flag
A source does not have any flag. IT has an A/R. And all script we do for KVCD are 4/3.

Quote:
but is intended to be anamorphic, and set/inform TMPG that the source IS anamorphic
But an "anormorphic" source (or a source that is intented to be anamaprohic, like you say) IS 4/3

Anamorphic means 4/3.
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  #14  
02-04-2005, 01:09 AM
muaddib muaddib is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by muaddib
What is the problem feeding TMPG with an AVS stream that has no anamorphic flag
A source does not have any flag. IT has an A/R. And all script we do for KVCD are 4/3.
Yes... I know.
That is exactly what I was trying to say. (sorry for my poor english )
I should have said: "feeding TMPG with an AVS stream (that has obviously no anamorphic flag)".

Quote:
Anamorphic means 4/3.
Hummmm... so even a flagged stream should be treated as 4/3?
I thought that anamorphic meant a 16/9 AR display, or in other words, a picture (that isn’t necessary 4/3) that will be distorted to 16/9 at playback. And that is why is possible to have anamorphic streams with differente resolutions and AR....
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  #15  
02-04-2005, 04:24 AM
drequena drequena is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muaddib
I thought that anamorphic meant a 16/9 AR display, or in other words, a picture (that isn’t necessary 4/3) that will be distorted to 16/9 at playback. And that is why is possible to have anamorphic streams with differente resolutions and AR.... Question Rolling Eyes
If I understood well tha's precisely the diference between anamorpich and 16:9

- A stream with picture dimensions 160x90 would be 16:9 but not anamorphic.

- Apicture with pic. dims. 400x300 could be anamorphic or not. It would be anamorphic if it's distorted so when "vertically narrowed" looks with correct proportions.

So with the former stream you've two options: you add borders so you get 4:3 letterboxed or you vertically stretch picture sou you get anamorphic (4:3 pic. dims. 16:9 A/R)

Well, I' hope I got it at last
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02-04-2005, 04:35 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muaddib
Hummmm... so even a flagged stream should be treated as 4/3?
I thought that anamorphic meant a 16/9 AR display, or in other words, a picture (that isn’t necessary 4/3) that will be distorted to 16/9 at playback.
Read all the thread slowly again . Anamorphic means a 16:9 picture distorted to enter into a 4:3 box

Anamorphosis was used first in theaters, to put all kind of formats on the same old film and material used sinces years (and that have 4:3 format). At this time you had a specific lens to put in front of the projector to perform the "deanamorphosis" of the picture and to restore the real A/R. Each A/R has its own lens (1.85, 2.21, 2.35...).
For electronic, they choosed a simple way : only 1.77 (16:9) A/R and 4:3 A/R are supported by the material. All other formats use black bars.

Quote:
And that is why is possible to have anamorphic streams with differente resolutions and AR....
There is only ONE anamorphic A/R : 16:9. All others have black borders in them !
(a 16:9 anamorphosed picture, if you do not restore it, is displayed as a 4:3 fullscreen)

I don't understand how someone that did Moviestacker can have such question ?
Use FitCD if you want to have something "visual" about what is anamorphic/fullscreen related to different A/R.
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  #17  
02-04-2005, 04:40 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drequena
- A stream with picture dimensions 160x90 would be 16:9 but not anamorphic.
Yes.
Quote:
- Apicture with pic. dims. 400x300 could be anamorphic or not. It would be anamorphic if it's distorted so when "vertically narrowed" looks with correct proportions.
YES !

Quote:
So with the former stream you've two options: you add borders so you get 4:3 letterboxed or you vertically stretch picture sou you get anamorphic (4:3 pic. dims. 16:9 A/R)
YES YES YES !
And for a correct playback you will have to "compress" what you previously stretched.
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02-04-2005, 05:10 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Simply put:

1) All normal DVD material is 720x576 or 720x480, be it anamorphic or full screen (or letterboxed which is basically the same as full screen, it's just that there's borders instead of film pixels)

2) stuff flagged as 16:9 is scaled to nnnn x 576/480 on playback if you have a 16:9 display. nnnn is something like 1280 pixels (the dirty details and calculations are somewhere to be found, I'm sure). If your display is 4:3, the output is 720x576/480 with borders to correct the A/R.

3) stuff flagged as 4:3 is played as it is, the SAP doesn't scale. The output is 720x576/480.

Is this how it goes?
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  #19  
02-04-2005, 05:19 AM
drequena drequena is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dialhot
Look at my location ! I'm in PAL area too
At last a clue. I've seen posts by you in english, spanish, french, italian and portuguese

Quote:
You just have to know that a lot of avisynth filters need to have picture size divisible by 2, 4 or even 16
Not only this. gripcrop/gripsize/gripborders seem to fail when needed borders would be vertical (e.g: 1.67:1 make avs crash with an acces violation)
I found this while performing some tests with your v4 script.

Quote:
99% of the PAL DVD are progressive 'even if DVD2AVI says the oppsosite, so don't worry...
Well, it's not about worrying about getting correct results but about understanding how and why, you know. But this'll be in another forum/thread

Quote:
FYI we do not use gripcrop generally, but we use a tool (fitcd) that give to us the correct resize/addborder lines
Had a look at fitcd. I like it best because you can see exactly what's going on behind the scenes. I've to look at it in more detail as it seems to incorporate a lot of features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
But since this is the AVI part of the forum maybe drequena was talking about TV captures.
Well I was thinking about digital satellite broadcast captures, wich of course I still don't know if are interlaced as broadcasted in Spain (Canal Satelite Digital). I haven't tested yet because I want try to get at the digital decodified stream first. I've been said it has a very good quality/bitrate. If I cannot do this the I'll capture video output to avi. But that's another story...
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  #20  
02-04-2005, 05:30 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drequena
I found this while performing some tests with your v4 script.
It seeems to me that this is the "BlindPP" command that has some concerns with A/R. Comment out this line and see if you still have the crash.

Quote:
Well I was thinking about digital satellite broadcast captures, wich of course I still don't know if are interlaced as broadcasted in Spain (Canal Satelite Digital).
Anything for TV is interlaced. In the present time at least.
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