Quantcast Confusion with TMPGEnc Settings - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
12-17-2003, 05:24 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 863
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've always had some confusion with TMPGEnc settings. I use Bicubic values from MovieStacker in my script with pixel values (as Kwag recommends) found by using TMPGEnc clip.

For KVCD

There are 3 basic formats for NTSC from TV captures:

full screen
widescreen with narrow borders top and bottom
widescreen with wide borders top and bottom

There are two TMPGEnc screens with aspect settings
Am I doing this correctly?

For full screen, I use
Video/Aspect ratio/4:3
Advanced/Source aspect ratio/4:3
Advanced/Video arrange Method/Full Screen

For widescreen with narrow borders top and bottom
Video/Aspect ratio/4:3
Advanced/Source aspect ratio/16:9
Advanced/Video arrange Method/Full Screen

For widescreen with wide borders top and bottom
Video/Aspect ratio/4:3
Advanced/Source aspect ratio/16:9
Advanced/Video arrange Method/Full Screen (keep aspect ratio)

For KDVD region 1

For widescreen DVD source with wide borders top and bottom which is detected by MovieStacker as anamorphic
Video/Aspect ratio/4:3
Advanced/Source aspect ratio/16:9 525 line (NTSC)
Advanced/Video arrange Method/Full Screen (keep aspect ratio)

What I've been doing is using the TMPGEnc screen during encode as a visual reference. I've always changed the different settings until the aspect ratio looked right. Is this the right way to do this?

Since there are settings on both TMPGEnc screens, I need the simple rules for setting aspect ratios.
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Site Staff / Ad Manager
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
12-17-2003, 05:28 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
As you use a script generated by Moviestacker you do not have nothing to change in tmpgenc.

Whatever the source, the settings are :

Video/Aspect ratio/4:3 525 lines (NTSC) -- or 625 lines (PAL)
Advanced/Source aspect ratio/4:3 525 lines (NTSC) -- or 625 lines (PAL)
Advanced/Video arrange Method/Full Screen (or center as you wish).

Everything is handled by moviestacker (and avisynth) to feed tmpgenc with a correct 4:3 image to encode !
Reply With Quote
  #3  
12-17-2003, 05:57 AM
mistermickster mistermickster is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Blighty, PAL Land
Posts: 133
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
As you use a script generated by Moviestacker you do not have nothing to change in tmpgenc.

Whatever the source, the settings are :

Video/Aspect ratio/4:3 525 lines (NTSC) -- or 625 lines (PAL)
Advanced/Source aspect ratio/4:3 525 lines (NTSC) -- or 625 lines (PAL)
Advanced/Video arrange Method/Full Screen (or center as you wish).

Everything is handled by moviestacker (and avisynth) to feed tmpgenc with a correct 4:3 image to encode !
Hi Phil,

So with the following scenario:



If I'm watching on my main TV which is 16:9 widescreen, I wish to see the yellow area only.

But if I'm watching on another fullscreen TV, I wish to see the red area, and not the yellow area stretched upwards.

Is that what would happen with the settings you said?
__________________
MisterMickster
Reply With Quote
  #4  
12-17-2003, 06:07 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 863
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
As you use a script generated by Moviestacker you do not have nothing to change in tmpgenc.

Whatever the source, the settings are :

Video/Aspect ratio/4:3 525 lines (NTSC) -- or 625 lines (PAL)
Advanced/Source aspect ratio/4:3 525 lines (NTSC) -- or 625 lines (PAL)
Advanced/Video arrange Method/Full Screen (or center as you wish).

Everything is handled by moviestacker (and avisynth) to feed tmpgenc with a correct 4:3 image to encode !
Thanks, Phil.

On the widescreen anamorphic dvd source that I want to keep anamorphic (for a KDVD encode to DVD) and using the settings above, the TMPGEnc screen is showing narrow borders, not wide borders on the top and bottom and, of course, narrower borders on the sides. Should the final encode actually have wide borders on top and bottom even though TMPGEnc doesn't show this during encode? I want to use on both standard and widescreen tv.

The KDVD full template starts up with 16:9 as Video/Aspect ratio, but I have changed this to the settings above.

From MovieStacker:

BicubicResize(720, 366, 0, 0.6, 0, 60, 720, 360)
AddBorders(0, 57, 0, 57)
LetterBox(0,0,16,16) #
Reply With Quote
  #5  
12-17-2003, 06:11 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
All KVCD are to be done as plain 4:3 picture. If you want to watch them on widescreen without the black bars, use the zoom feature of your TV set. Exactly the same as when you are watching a 4:3 TV show.

There is no setting that can provide you a picture that is both with the bars (red) AND without the bars (yellow) !

The "automatic letterboxed picture from an anormorphic source" feature does not exist on any standalone for VCD. That works only for DVD. If you need black bars (to see red area), they must be encoded in the picture.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
12-17-2003, 06:21 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
On the widescreen anamorphic dvd source that I want to keep anamorphic (for a KDVD encode to DVD)
As precised just above, I was talking about KVCD only. For KDVD things are different, that's right.

Quote:
Should the final encode actually have wide borders on top and bottom even though TMPGEnc doesn't show this during encode?
Remember one thing ! TMPGEnc shows the picture as a 4:3 one (default 320*240). So the image you've got there isn't the one you will have on your TV set as you have anamorphic destination !

DO NOT MISTAKE 16:9 FOR ANAMORPHIC

When tmpgenc talk about 16:9 that must be taken as "picture that have a 1.77 ratio format".
You want an anamorphic image, that stands for "picture with 1.77 ratio format stetched into a 1.33 image"

So anamorphic pictures are 4:3

Quote:
I want to use on both standard and widescreen tv.
So see my post just above this one.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
12-17-2003, 06:43 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 863
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks again, Phil.

I think I understand now. It was the TMPGEnc display screen while encoding anamorphic that was really confusing me. I backup DVDs with the MA script interlaced into KDVD full at 95 CQ onto DVD's and try to get best quality. Almost all are anamorphic widescreen and I detect this with MovieStacker. If it says anamorphic input, I check anamorphic output. Of course this is only for KDVD to DVD use. Otherwise, I do not check anamorphic output and use 4:3 with borders for KVCD.

Your advice is appreciated - as always.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
12-17-2003, 07:28 AM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
1. MisterMickster

If the cover of a DVD source says 2.35 Widescreen view this DOES NOT mean that the encoding is done at a proportion of 2.35:1! So the image is encoded at 1.85:1 (black borders added to a 2.35:1 image area so it fits a 1.85:1 encoding). And so your posted image example is not full screen but 1.85:1 ... so moviestacker adds even more black borders so in case of KVCD we encode at 4:3 to gain the compression ratio.

2. DialHot

Not correcting you but only to avoid a misunderstanding of Noobs.
Quote:
So anamorphic pictures are 4:3
Thats almost right. Better said "anamorphic streams are 1.85:1 Image pixel informations squeezed to 4:3 (you intended to say that but I wanted to clearyfy a bit the conclusion) and by adding a 16:9 dest. flag in TmpgEnc this gives a 16:9 resizing information to the mpeg header which will be detected by the standalone to handle the anamorph state of the input right.
And thats also what you intended to say that this is not supported in VCD mode ... but there do exist some players which do understand the 16:9 anamorph encoding flag in a SVCD mpeg header so they can re-stretch the image to its right proportions.

So what Dialhot wanted to say is that a anamorph encoding is a 16:9 (1.85:1) Stream sqeezed to a 4:3 Proportion:



As you see still black borders because there only can be done Widescreen 16:9 (1.85:1) encodings and NOT Cinemascope (2.35:1) encodings at 720x576(480)!


3. @ All
16:9 Source in tmpeg is only useful if you let TmpgEnc do the Aspectratio resizing, but as we let do Moviestacker/FitCD do the job with avisynth its not needed.

The big misunderstanding in here is that a 16:9 and 4:3 description can be seen in two interpretations.

a) the Fullscreen 4:3 (1.33:1), 16:9(1.85:1) or Widescreen(2.35:1)View
That means a letterboxed image (black borders added to the top and the bottom) so it fits in its height to the Tv set we use for watching. As this here in the case of 352x288(240) is needed for encoding kvcds.

b) the 16:9 (anamorph(see picture above)) or 4:3 (non-anamorph) Encoding
In quality focus in the case of DVD a very good choice to keep the anamorphic state, cause by this you maintain the height's pixel informationcount which is most responsable for a sharp picture (first choice on 16:9 tv sets) so the standalone reads the header and in a case of a 4:3 tv set he scales down the height! adds the needed borders on top and bottom to fit the 4:3! And in the case of a 16:9 tv set the standalone scales up the width and preserves the height pixel count = sharper and better picture quality. So a 4:3 encoding is a 4:3 view at 720x576(480) pixels AND a 16:9 encoding is a 16:9 view where the 720x576(480) will be scaled to 1024x576(480)!! You see now why we keep a better quality when doing a anamorph DVD encoding?! It got its sense

A 16:9 anamorph encoding (the example above) resized to its real 1024x576(480) in relation on a 16:9 Tv set:



And in your case of analog captures (not DVB streaming!!) nicksteel, you will everytime get a to 4:3 letterboxed image, so your source everytime will be 4:3!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
12-17-2003, 07:51 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
a) the Fullscreen 4:3 (1.33:1), 16:9(1.85:1) or Widescreen(2.35:1)
As you like precision, let me precise a little your precisions

16:9 is not 1.85, is 1.77 (take you calc ).

This format was chosen by TV industry because it is in the middle of two existing cinema formats : 1.33 and 1.85.
Widescreen isn't only 2.35:1 but also 2.21:1 and even 2.70:1 ! Again these all come from cinema world.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
12-17-2003, 08:08 AM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
Right!
I just wanted to explain this generally so the noobs see it as a whole.

I was using the 1.85:1, 2.35:1 values cause they are often signed on DVD covers ... just to avoid confusing noobs even more

As I know widescreen is above 1.77:1. And 2.21:1 and higher is cinemascope?

BTW for noobs nice sites:
http://wide.abacus-labs.com/aspect/aspect.html
http://www.divx.com/support/guides/guide.php?gid=12

interesting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvix.com
The most used of them for DVDs is 1:85:1 (American), 1.66:1 (European), 1.77:1 (British), and especially CinemaScope at 2.35:1 (worldwide).
I didn't knew that these proportions do stand in relation to countries. Heres also the value of cinemascope defined.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
12-17-2003, 09:08 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 863
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
and by adding a 16:9 dest. flag in TmpgEnc this gives a 16:9 resizing information to the mpeg header which will be detected by the standalone to handle the anamorph state of the input right.
Quote:
As you use a script generated by Moviestacker you do not have nothing to change in tmpgenc.

Whatever the source, the settings are :

Video/Aspect ratio/4:3 525 lines (NTSC) -- or 625 lines (PAL)
Advanced/Source aspect ratio/4:3 525 lines (NTSC) -- or 625 lines (PAL)
Advanced/Video arrange Method/Full Screen (or center as you wish).

Everything is handled by moviestacker (and avisynth) to feed tmpgenc with a correct 4:3 image to encode !
Again, I am making a NTSC region 1 DVD using KDVD and MovieStacker Bicubic settings. I will then process in TMPGEnc Author and burn to DVD. My DVD is 2.35:1 (printed on the case) and detected as anamorphic by MovieStacker. I wish the DVD to play on standard and widescreen TV.

If I need to "add a 16:9 dest. flag in TmpgEnc", on which TMPGEnc screen do I do this?

I understand the KVCD / TMPGEnc settings. I understand 4:3 and adding borders for nonanamorphic (like my captures). My confusion as always been with TMPGEnc aspect settings. Given the two statements above, what exactly should my TMPGEnc settings be for this DVD to KDVD to DVD?

I'm beginning to feel pretty stupid, but I really need to know.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
12-17-2003, 11:10 AM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
The only thing you have to know is if its anamorph or not If it's your intention to keep the anamorph state! But even by keeping this anamorph state you can fit 2 Movies on one KDVD containing 2 audio streams to each movie ... = quality gain in the result.

So in this case (if you wnat to reencode still anamorph) don't use any resizers in Avisynth so your image will still be send to the encoder in an anamorph state at 720x480 as the source is. In the encoder you choose "full screen" or "center" and at the advanced encoding settigs the dest. output to 16:9 the "anamorph" flag will be added to your mpeg stream. In avisynth just set an importline and the following Light filtering.

But if you do focus on our KVCD/KDVD "Compression mission" to get as much movies as you can on your KDVD, in that case do the known KVCD way (Avisnth, Moviestaker 4:3 Letterboxing, resizing, filtering) but with the exeption that you have to keep the DVD resolution specs and also the GOP specs (as its already set in the KDVD Template) ... but also here you could try to break the standards ... so just try and figure out what your standalone "eats" in DVD mode.

Quote:
I'm beginning to feel pretty stupid, but I really need to know.
No my friend! You're not stupid you're interested and want to know whats all about. So keep on asking with a touch of doing your own experiences by just "try and error" a bit
Reply With Quote
  #13  
12-17-2003, 11:39 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 863
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
So in this case (if you wnat to reencode still anamorph) don't use any resizers in Avisynth so your image will still be send to the encoder in an anamorph state at 720x480 as the source is. In the encoder you choose "full screen" or "center" and at the advanced encoding settigs the dest. output to 16:9 the "anamorph" flag will be added to your mpeg stream. In avisynth just set an importline and the following Light filtering.

What I needed. Thanks, Incredible.

I am learning step-by-step and getting pretty good encodes while learning!

I am lazy with DVD's, and only put one KDVD per disc at max CQ. If small enough, I use DVDShrink with no compression.

I put almost all my tv captures on CD's as KVCD mpeg2, so all the advice I've received here has been very appreciated, especially your script for interlaced I used for Futurama!

Thanks again, Guys.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
12-17-2003, 12:34 PM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 863
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
So in this case (if you wnat to reencode still anamorph) don't use any resizers in Avisynth so your image will still be send to the encoder in an anamorph state at 720x480 as the source is. In the encoder you choose "full screen" or "center" and at the advanced encoding settigs the dest. output to 16:9 the "anamorph" flag will be added to your mpeg stream. In avisynth just set an importline and the following Light filtering.
Do you use the MA script or some other filters for this?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
12-17-2003, 02:01 PM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
My head hurts
Here, let's add more pain to the headache
http://www.uwasa.fi/~f76998/video/conversion/
(Thanks to pulsar informaticks for the link)

-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #16  
12-17-2003, 02:38 PM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 863
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You may have hear an explosion to the west of you. My brain just reached critical mass here in Houston.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
12-17-2003, 02:43 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
"Houston ? We've got a problem..."
Reply With Quote
  #18  
12-17-2003, 03:38 PM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
You may have hear an explosion to the west of you. My brain just reached critical mass here in Houston.
Yes, also to my east (in France), where part of dialhot's brains are hanging from the top of the Eiffel tower
Or his head is so swollen, that it's stuck in one of the arcs of the Arc de Triomphe

Edit: I know my head is swollen

-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #19  
12-18-2003, 06:46 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 863
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Incredible

So in this case (if you wnat to reencode still anamorph) don't use any resizers in Avisynth so your image will still be send to the encoder in an anamorph state at 720x480 as the source is. In the encoder you choose "full screen" or "center" and at the advanced encoding settigs the dest. output to 16:9 the "anamorph" flag will be added to your mpeg stream. In avisynth just set an importline and the following Light filtering.
When the KDVD full template is loaded, the TMPGEnc Video/Aspect Ratio is set 16:9 as a default.

When making a NON-anamorphic (of course) DVD from a 740x480 tv capture that is full screen, not 16:9, should I change this to 4:3?

When making a NON-anamorphic (of course) DVD from a 740x480 tv capture that is 16:9 or letterbox, should I leave this as 16:9?

When making an anamorphic DVD from a 16:9 or letterbox DVD, should I leave this as 16:9?

When making a DVD from a 4:3 DVD, should I change this to 4:3?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
12-18-2003, 07:38 AM
incredible incredible is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to incredible
Nick, please read the postings carefully and you will understand when you have to change to 16:9 at source or dest settings! Thats why I added some preciser explanations so you can understand the basics!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
When making a NON-anamorphic (of course) DVD from a 740x480 tv capture that is full screen, not 16:9, should I change this to 4:3?
YOU CANT Capture anamorph! And in case of ENCODING Settings in TmpgEnc 16:9 means "anamorph"!! As I explained this ... when entering the encodingSettings blow the "16:9-VIEW-interpretation" out of your mind!
And thats what DialHot meant ... your capture as it isn't anamorph will be handled by the encoder as 4:3 source! (cause even if you get a capture with a Widescreen View black borders already are added and so you got a letterboxed 16:9 a 4:3 Proportion non anamorph 4:3!

And so ... "yes" if encoding your captures do set 4:3 as input and 4:3 as output.
Quote:
When making a NON-anamorphic (of course) DVD from a 740x480 tv capture that is 16:9 or letterbox, should I leave this as 16:9?
Oh, so you understood this as I read your "of course"???! Read above, you wont get a 16:9 capture, ONLY a 4:3 Letterboxed input with maybe a 16:9 view where the black borders are added Letterboxing in our case in here=4:3!
Quote:
When making an anamorphic DVD from a 16:9 or letterbox DVD, should I leave this as 16:9?
Also this speaks for itself. 90% of the DVDs are in an anamorph state, so if you do keep the anamorph state 16:9 as input and 16:9 as output.
And in case of Avisynth this means NO resizing and setting in TmpgEnc the output to 16:9. And in case of bad mastered 4:3 Blockbuster DVDs handle the mpeg streams as you do it in case of your 4:3 captures.
Quote:
When making a DVD from a 4:3 DVD, should I change this to 4:3?
See above yep! Input 4:3 output 4:3 mode=center

Also read the links in here I posted:
http://wide.abacus-labs.com/aspect/aspect.html
http://www.divx.com/support/guides/guide.php?gid=12

This is very clear explained and let you understand the logic and whats all about.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Something to clear up confusion and misleadings. kwag Off-topic Lounge 13 11-02-2005 06:59 AM
KVCD template confusion radunn Video Encoding and Conversion 15 03-07-2005 06:16 AM
TMPGEnc: Aspect ratio confusion Glebix Video Encoding and Conversion 1 12-31-2004 09:22 PM
Bitrates: Calcumatic average bitrate figure confusion?? Blubear Video Encoding and Conversion 11 11-13-2004 09:42 PM
KVCD: GOP numbers confusion? AdamJ Video Encoding and Conversion 11 08-19-2004 12:47 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:00 AM  —  vBulletin Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd