Let me try to explain my post to those who don't read Portuguese.

The rules of the Portuguese forum (in a post by Jorel)

Translating:
1) It's not allowed to post about avi movies not released yet in DVD
2) It's not allowed to post about movies downloaded from the internet.
3) You can't do copies of dvds you don't own, be they borrowed or rented.
4) Posts that make clear that were obtained by illegal means will be deleted.

I said that the common sense about these rules is: don't post about illegal stuff! But a person with bad intentions can "bend" the rules to justify a bad behaviour, and imagined an example.

There are people who sell divx CDs with movies on the street, in Brazil. It's illegal, but this exists.

Imagine someone buys one of this CDs and wants to make a kvcd.

- If the movie was already released in DVD it's "OK" with 1)
- It's not downloaded, it's bought in the street, so it's "OK" with 2)
- he didn't copy from a DVD you don't own; someone else did. So it's "OK" with 3)
- If he doesn't "make clear" that's illegal, it's "OK" with 4) - he just has to be a little "fuzzy".

But it's all wrong! It's illegal and it doesn't belong to the forum.

Now the opposite situation: you download a legal avi from a site that legally distributes independent productions, promo videos, or whatever.

- It's not released in DVD so breaks 1)
- It's downloaded from the internet so breaks 2)

But it's legal and there's no problem if it's mentioned in the forum. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I then say that happens because the rules try to list things that you CAN'T do; and people are very creative when it comes to make wrong things, so this approach is not very viable.

I suggest that the rules are rewritten (not changed) so that they say what you CAN do (there are not many options) and then saying that anything else is a NO and will be punished.

After that I give a rough suggestion of how it could be implemented, just as food for thought, no pretensions. In summary, the suggestion was:

a) you can do a personal backup of a dvd/vhs you own.
b) you can encode captures of your own home recordings for personal backup
c) you can do a personal backup of captures from TV
d) you can backup avis downloaded or bought if they're legal, in which case you HAVE TO state in the post the origin of the avi (site or whatever) and the rights you have to backup it (for example free clip from the site of the band or whatever). If this info is missing the post will be delete.
e) clearly illegal posts will be deleted and the poster BANNED.
f) if the info in d) is proven to be false, the post is deleted and the poster BANNED.

I say that might look heavy, but people who behave OK are already 100% compliant with the above, only the bad ones would have to worry.

Then I think jorel misunderstands my intentions and I restate that the above is just a suggestion, that I humbly submitted, because I think it's not against kwags will or the spirit of the forum, and something like it can make life easier for effective moderators like him who gets a lot of heat from having to take hard attitudes with people that insists in behaving bad. Unlike me that don't moderate at all. And I agree that's not good because I don't want to be the "good guy" while he's being fighted for his activity.

I know jorel is under a great pressure and if he misunderstood my intentions it's because of this.

I also know I'm human and prone to error so if something above is against the forum rules I will retract in public and change my behaviour in respect to where I'm wrong immediately.

@Jorel e GFR,
Mas o que voces pensam que estão fazendo
Daqui a pouco vão estar lavando roupa suja em público
Se têm diferenças de ideologia quanto áquilo que deve ou não ser removido no forum, comecem falando aqui.
Porque voces acham que o Karl abriu esse "espaço" aqui?
Me está dando vontade de apagar vossos posts lá...
Têm que ter calma e falar e de preferencia sem ser por PM.

@Jorge,
Jorge voce sabe que eu sou muito seu amigo e que básicamente concordo com tudo que voce tem feito pelo forum, enão é só de agora.
Mas ou a gente se entende aqui, e criamos um grupo de regras bem claras para todos os moderadores e usuários para que não hajam dúvidas ou eu tb vou pedir prô Karl me passar para usuário simples.

@Karl,
Sorry for posting in Portuguese buddy, but I thought it was easier for my Brasilians friends and me to understand.
Right now I am a bit pissed off with what's hapening.
Not at them but at the problem in hands.
I will re-post what I have said so many times.
I DON'T WANT TO SEE ANY KIND OF DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN MODERATORS IN ANY FORUM
If this goes on like this I will also ask you to downgrade me to a regular user again.
Both GFR and Jorel know that I respect them a lot for their hard work for the forum.
But if any of us have any problem with ourselves, THIS is the right place to post the issue, NOT at the MAIN forums.
It's just as if my wife would start a "scene" in the supermarket.
In the end I will still love her, but she has to understand that she can argue with me at home...
More, I think that you will need to create a package of instructions for moderators to use and obey.
That way it's much easier.
I think we can give you some help but it will have to start from you buddy.
Since Jorge has been suffering with this issue from long ago maybe he can also post his oppinion on what should be done specifically at the PTG forum that is really going bananas.
Don't misunderstand me: In the end I am still friend with GFR, Jorel and everybody
Cheers

__________________
Rui

what so bored it all!
GFR
first that post is not mine is from VMESQUITA and i only post it there

ARGUE AGAINST VMESQUITA!!!
surprise ? now I WANT that you argue cos you are one more that want to change the KWAG'S will and have "ideas" to change what he want.

don't blame me for nothing what your IMAGINATION can do!!!
argue with KWAG cos i POST IT THERE and seems that you don't read after i answer YOU:
From: kwag
To: jorel
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:38 pm
now answer for all NOT for ME:
WHAT DO YOU EXPECT THAT I DO?
you're agains't?
argue KWAG.......not me!
why everybody want ot blame me if they all want to change the Kwag's will?
CAN SOMEONE ANSWER ME?
why blame me? i'm doing the Kwag's will
are you doing the Kwag's will giving suggestions to change the disclaimer, the law about download that HE POSTED IN THE WHOLE FORUM?
are you CRAZY....you can be crazy but don't blame me.

argue with Kwag and with vmesquita.

@ Karl and vmesquita
can you please answer the.."doubts" of GFR and answer what he want to know
please?

but first, before you answer his doubts, take a look in his post:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=110364#110364

@ correia:
estou repondendo ao GFR que quer implantar uma nova lei de downloads e mesmo eu postando as ordens do Kwag ele insiste em que eu pergunte ao Kwag: entaõ se você ou ninguem ler o que foi escrito NUNCA vai entender o que acontece!!!
você mesmo já não está aguentando TANTA besteira...imagina eu que passei e passo pior do que você e ainda toda hora tem um MODERADOR me questionando......!!!!!!!
já foram 6 MODERADORES me questionando e eu não fiz NADA fora do que o KWAG me mandou fazer.
ELES É QUE DEVEM SER QUESTIONADOS POIS NÃO FAZEM O QUE O KWAG QUER E AINDA SE LEVANTAM CONTRA QUEM FAZ.
se ficou claro pra você Correia,agora que você passou um pouco do que passei no forum português POR FAVOR traduza para o inglês pois é preciso que todos entendam o que REALMENTE ocorre!!!
SE o KWAG me mandar fazer downloads ilegais no forum EU farei pois posso fazer tudo que ele me recomendar mas como ele me mandou o pm acima, e o GFR ainda escreve dá pra entender uma idéia destas Correia? ele postou isto PUBLICAMENTE E vai contra A AUTORIDADE que me foi DADA e contra o próprio AUTOR da autoridade.
será que eu estou ficando louco ou você entendeu a mesma coisa pois eu só LI o que ele ESCREVEU!!!
ou eu tenho apoio e autonomia ou eu vou viver em conflito com todos!!!

outra coisa:
este forum aqui foi uma idéia que apresentei ao Kwag pois existe em outro forum que modero e sei que poderia ser usado com utilidade mas NÃO para ter oponentes todos os dias!!!
assim como você eu já pedi ao Kwag pra mudar meu username pra ser um simples newby mas GARANTO que o forum vai virar uma BAGUNÇA e pode ser até FECHADO futuramente.

acho que CHEGA e vou ajir EXATAMENTE como o KWAG quer!!!

posted in portuguese forum Correia,please tenslate that comments of a user:
very important words: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=110380#110380

PLEASE CORREIA translate it for KWAG.. please!
this post show how big shame have one right user inside portuguese forum!!!
he want to go away watching that big confusion!
it's a shame for me too but NOT for who want to change the law to turn the forum WORSE!!!

@Jorel,
Tudo bem meu amigo. Eu compreendo o que voce quer dizer .
Aliás tambem é obvio que voce compreende o que eu quero dizer quando escrevi pra voces (Jorel e GFR) pararem de postar naquele thread no forum Português.
Só gostaria que as áreas publicas do forum ficassem limpas de problemas/diferenças entre moderadores.
Isso sim, me faz "esquentar".
Aqui voces estão à vontade para expressarem vossas ideias e julgamentos e darem vossas opiniões mesmo sendo divergentes.
Abraços

__________________
Rui

all right Correia you ARE helping me there but is "FULL" of that posts there and with reason,want to go out!

but for me still the problem: GFR posted against in public forum FIRST.
what i will do?
answer....no way out!

my next post will give the final decision!

Ok Jorge,
Try to finish the issue, there.
It would be a nice thing if you could close that thread too if it isn't needed anymore.
You guys can talk here
Cheers pal

__________________
Rui

@ Karl

Karl , if you want that i mod the portuguese forum and the whole kvcd forum, i only can do that if you put only
me and Phil as global mods..... only
and give us authority for that
and in portuguese forum too WITH Correia.
no more mods in portuguese forum cos i can't do anything you want if others mods post against me and your will.....no way out for me.
i need Phil cos he have fast solutions..i need Correia cos he is friendly and can report all for you if needed.
but without that solution i will stay wqithout answer any post there cos i can't solve anything alone and i stop to read to learn in others forums here to do your will in portuguese forum but nobody want to follow what YOU want and i show what you want all day long, everyday,night and day!

i posted it here cos in pm you give me YOUR authority but they still argue against me cos seems that i'm posting lies about you.

if is too much for you i can stay out but i can't stay in the middle of the battle without powerfull generals that don't change the side in the favor of the wind!

only you can answer this.
this is my sincere position to help and do what you want in the way that you want.
i can't mod with mods that show as cool guys and don't follow the forum rules.....i only got enemys from all sides and can't win in your favor alone.

Jorge

EDITED:
i forgot:
of course..mods in others forums stay as mod without changes!

I have some thoughts that I would like to share and discuss...

I think that moderate is a very tough task. A moderator is at the same time the judge, the jury and the executor. So it demands great responsibility and objectivity.

I think we must never moderate with our heart, but only based on what is written.
We must not let our personal dislike for a user get in the way of our judgment.
We must not judge a thread based on a user past actions. As Phill already said, a thread must be moderated individually. We must judge the thread, not the user.
If the user repeats the error again, and again, and again, then it’s the time to judge the user and decide if it’s better not have him as a KVCD member.

I totally agree with Rui!
I believe that the user must have the “benefit of the doubt” (I don’t know if this is the right term). If there isn’t the evidence, the proof that he is referring to warez (or something inappropriate), I don’t close the thread. If there is this proof I delete the thread, or if it is an important or relevant thread, I delete the “warez” reference, and leave the thread open so the discussion can go on without the warez’s reference.

I agree with incredible too!
But here we also need objectivity to decide what should be considered warez and what not.
I believe that Karl already give us this objectivity when he decides to stop all DivX/XviD discussions.

One other important point is that we must not take moderation discussion into the personal side. We are here to keep the forum clean, assuring fulfills of the rules and Kwag’s will. We did not make the rules, and most important we do not have to convince the users that he is wrong! If the thread is inappropriate or irrelevant, just close the damn thread and point it to the disclaimer! If you want to give him the reason why his thread is been closed, that’s fine, but be objective! Do not keep explaining, and explaining, and explaining hopping to convince the user or even expecting some king of an excuse or withdraw. That’s not the way to go!

So, to finish, we must moderate with objectivity, keeping the forum clean, but also keeping it in peace.

First of all, I recognize that I made a big mistake of discussing this stuff outside this forum and I apologize for that. Thanks Correia for making me realize that. The way the discussion evolved led me to that path, but I should have stopped it before it begun and moved it to HERE. I suggest to a moderator of the forum (which I'm not anymore, and I feel released for that) that deletes the posts since they are, at least, inappropriate for that forum. And if there was any arguing, sorry again, because I always tried to keep it as a healthy and constructive discussion, and I think jorel too.

As the accusation of "being against the rules" or "wanting to change the disclaimer" or whatever, let me try and say it again.

1) I don't want to argue - that's something I really don't like and I won't spend my time with this.
2) I'm not against the forum rules. If I were I would not sign in, in the first place.
3) I don't want to go against kwag's will - he owns the forum, his dedication keeps this running, so his will is God's will here.
4) I don't want to implant a new law, and of course and can't.

But

5) There's a problem in the Portuguese forum because many peolple post abou illegal stuff.
6) Jorel is having too much work moderating the forum because of this, and asked for help right in this forum.
7) The politics of the forum, until now, allowed talking about DivX, if it was legal stuff (after all we have AVI, DIKO, Codecs dedicated forums).
8 ) The way the disclaimer is written, at least in the portuguese forum, gives margin to misinterpretations.
9) People in the portuguese forum are arguing with jorel all the time trying to "prove" that their post is valid, when, they're really not.

Then

10) I thought that if the disclaimer was clearer, more objective, this could help jorel by leaving room to no arguing when a post is deleted. Spelling it out again: it's not about changing the rules it's about presenting them in a clearer way with no room for questioning.
11) I did the mistake of post suggestions with this intention, in the wrong place. For what I apologize, again.

If this is not clear enough, I'll ask someone else to write it out for me because I must have a serious problem with languages, both English and Portuguese.

Now jorel,

I'm not against you! I know you're under a great pressure and that puts you on a self defense mode. I only ask you to read my posts again, with no pre conceipt ideas, not trying to find hidden meanings between the lines, because there is no such thing. Please re-read it with an open mind.

"life is very short for fussing and fighting my friend"

OK, my FRIEND?

I'm not arguing with you. I think we can discuss without arguing and that's a healthy thing. I won't argue with Karl or VMesquita either, but I see no problems in discussing with them, and I'm open to it, and I also think they're open to discussion too.

I don't want to "change the KWAG'S will". (Am I being repetitive?)

I'm not blaming you, but don't want to be blamed for what I'm not guilty.

I think I can help kwag by suggesting improvements to the disclaimer that help making it easier to assure his will is respect.

I posted the suggestions in the wrong forum, and for this you can blame me, and I apologize.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm trying to have a healthy discussion. I never insulted you or disrespected you. So I will assume that CRAZY with all capitals is not an insult, or the discussion would end here.

By the way, kwag just changed the forum policy, TODAY. So the rules were not written in stone after all, or else kwag is "crazy" too? Did himself went against his own will because he changed his own rules?

Translating for all:

jorel said: "IF KWAG tells me to do illegal downloads in the forum I'LL do because I can do anything he recommends"

I say: IF kwag tells me to do illegal things I won't and I will leave the forum.

In the mentioned thread jorel posted pieces of PMs from kwag to him and pieces of kwags posts in this forum, all in english, and all out of reach for regular users of that forum until then. And that in a thread that had been previously closed. Those quotes do state clearly what's allowed or not to post, and what authority the mods, specially jorel, have. But I pointed out that the content of those posts was not accessible for all, and that if was posted clearly, in a single post, aceesible for all and of compulsory reading, then there would be no questioning of the mod actions. This is what I wrote and what I meant.

But jorel understands this as going againt his AUTHORITY.

I can't understand how can the meaning of my writing be exactly the OPPOSITE of what I meant - I wanted a means of REINFORCING his authority.

Like muaddib posted here:

Is muaddib going against anyone's authority when he asks for objectivity, and to base actions by what is WRITTEN? Because that's exactly what I tried to say. Unfortunately, I made the BIG mistake of posting it in the wrong place, for what I really regret.

I agree!!! But, if you are not told that you shouldn't wear shoes at that house, because the family doesn't like it, how are you supposed to guess it? If I were invited to such house, I would like very much if the inviter or the host tells me that beforehand.

Another point:

Before the change of policy (today) the text in the avi forum says:

" AVI(DivX, XviD, MPEG-4) to KVCD/KDVD
Conversion from DivX, Xvid, or any other MPEG-4 type CODEC material to KVCD/KDVD. This is the only forum allowed for DivX/XviD discussions. Posts related to DivX/Xvid in other areas of the forum will be deleted. NO DISCUSSIONS ABOUT DOWNLOADED DIVX/XVID MOVIES. POSTS WILL BE DELETED IMMEDIATELY.
Moderators jorel, Dialhot, incredible"

This would mean EVERY post about any mpeg-4 codec in the DIKO, CODECS and all the foreign language forums should be deleted, but they weren't. So the actual routine of the forum didn't reflect what was written.

The new policy takes care of this, by pruning all divx content and so eliminating this inconsistence.

Karl:

I have tried to explain my posts as clear and as objectively as I can. I fear being clearer than this is beyond my capacity. I can discuss the subject (this is a DISCUSSSION FORUM, ain't it?) but I won't answer about what I have already explained above, and in precious posts, because this would be just repetition and I think it's useless.

I see with great relief that I'm not a moderator anymore, and I'm glad for this. And since I'm no mod, please complete the job and remove my access rights for the private forum. I should not be able to post here.

And as a last suggestion in this forum (I hope I'm not opening a new can of worms):

I applaud the new policy, because it makes things clearer and removes inconsistecies.

But I think MANY of the new users that signed, and PAID, signed before there was a DIKO forum. DIKO is very popular even in other forums and magazines. So, they paid a month later they'll have to move to another site. You may consider a way to compensate this. The rest of the forum may be well worth the contribution, but some people may get upset with this situation. PLEASE I'm not against the change of policy or about the contribution, I just want to point out a problem that may occur, so that you're prepared.

If this is not clear again I think I will give up writing in any language an I'll only post equations and pseudocode for now on

1/ Diko forum was created after Avi one and we didn't think to change the policy of avi forum. Trust me, we do not have in mind absolutly ALL things that is written in each messages

2/ a lot of threads were removed by myself according this the policy above (for post in forums outside diko and avi ones of course) but for sure, you can't see them (as I removed them ).

In fact I removed the threads as long as nobody has already answered to it. After the first answer, I let it "by respect" to the answerer and considered it is too late to remove it.

I didn't read the rest of you message so don't worry if I d not answer for the remainder. Except for your point about members that had paid for a Diko forum. I'm quite agreed with you

i have 1 post form a good user and one pm from a bad(as they call) mod:
first the post of he good user:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=110380#110380
that translate to english after i send pm:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=110437#110437

judge or don't judge..is your chioce.....but read please!
but i can't stay "static" reading things like that without call the adiministrator for solutions. and this is what i did and he listen to me, i'm still thankful and don't change my mind!


now the pm from a bad(labeled) mod:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/privmsg.ph...e=read&p=43847

as i don't know if that link works for another mod and can work only for me i copy and post:

From: ginoboy
To: jorel
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:21 pm
Subject: Re: o que está havendo?

again judge or don't judge..is your chioce.....but read please!
but i can't stay "static" reading things like that without call the adiministrator for solutions. and this is what i did and he listen to me, i'm still thankful and don't change my mind! this mod had problems like me but don't had "pulse" to solve any problem and was really lost.

all comments are welcome IF that comments are for what is wroten and not from imaginations.

all that i wrote before still wroten and i don't change any point of you cos people can came here with wonderfull english but can't change his positions.what i did i will do again if needed cos i can't stand people that write against and later write in favor, changing with the wind direction.
i'm not voluble and who is blaming me of something only can post accusations but not have the position to deffend the forum and hios adiministrator and this is what i did,still doing and will do and not giving long suugestions to hypnotize the members to bribe and ilude the adiministrator.
i still don't change my mind and better is think
why Karl did exact what i request?
answer for yourself and you will find the reason !
don't need to answer for me cos i understood the intentions of lots of users a long time ago before DIKO and vmesquita development.
this is the reason of the divx forum outside the portuguese forum!
i told what will be happen long time before it all and DIKO is an Karl's cocession, is not part fo hios plan to kvcd forum!
can you think without introduce dreams in what i try to show here and a long time ago?
i never change my position about divx and is easy to find posts where i show my opinions for of course anyone that don't remember that i always had the same position: deffend the Kwag's will and the kvcd forum. inside the forum the reminders "dreams" are irrelevants.
i will that my poor english but big dedication can be clear for you all.
thanks ...i'm still have lots of offending pms to read like the pm that i posted here from cowards that show one thing in the forum but are angry enemys in pms.
i'm busy..see you all later...thanks all.and

@GFR
read this same thread and you will find i recommend you as global moderator but after my deception in the protuguese forum YOU change my mind!

sorry, it should have been:
I should not even be able to read this. And I won't read it anymore, since I don't think I should - even if I can. See you all in the regular forums.

I just see that I'm still a moderator, that just can't moderate any forum. That's awkward and makes no sense. Please downgrade me to a regular user.

Thanks.

Or