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  #21  
06-18-2021, 10:38 PM
Reading Bug Reading Bug is offline
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lingyi, do you know why Toshiba external desktops seem to have disappeared? It doesn't seem likely to be the chip shortage as everyone else is doing fine and prices seem to be coming down.

I'm planning to join Datahoarder and was going to ask there, but thought I should here too. Thanks.
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  #22  
06-18-2021, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yumyum8 View Post
Not really any doubt in reliability, like others have shared any drive can fail anytime so if you care about your data, buy two drives, or use a reliable cloud storage provider.
3-2-1 Backup. Local and cloud or physical offsite. 3 copies of your data, including your main drive, 2 on the same or different media and 1 kept physically offsite or cloud. The reason for the offsite copy is in case of catastrophic events such a s fire, flood, hurricane/tornado, power surge, theft, etc.

I'm going to pass along a bit of a secret.

Check your local Walmarts as they may have external drives, Seagate and WD on closeout. A month ago I got three 8TB WD MyBooks, 1 for $116 and two for $80 each. There a recent report that someone got a 4TB Seagate Expansion for $21. https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder...21_at_walmart/Note that this a huge YMMV as closeout prices vary widely.

Edit: As I explained above, this is definitely SMR.

This site allows you to check the local inventory of anything sold at Walmart and Target. Here's the URL for the 4TB Seagate: https://brickseek.com/walmart-invent...r?sku=44474061

Edit: At least for Walmart, using the UPC won't give you any results. You have to search for what you want at Walmart, then use their SKU.

I happened to see and by the MyBook at one location, then used Brickseek and saw that another location had them for $80. Got the last two. Brickseek isn't perfect. Not only can someone buy the drives before you arrive and sometimes if it says Out of Stock, there may be some in-store. When I bought the two 8TB drives, the 6TB drives were $95 and I thought about buying them, but didn't.

A couple of caveats. As I stated above, the default warranty date is the manufacture date and these drives have been sitting on the shelf for a good while, that's why there's on closeout. You could try and use your receipt to get a longer warranty, but at these prices, I don't worry about it.

The other potential issue that MyBooks use encryption on their USB interface. Which means if you shuck the drive, it won't be recognized outside the case. You'll have to format the drive without the interface to use it.
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  #23  
06-18-2021, 10:51 PM
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Those 8TB My Books are down to $174 at Amazon. I price-matched two out of my local Best Buy this afternoon and feel good about it because those drives haven't been sitting there long. I know because they were recently out of stock and of course were full price ($229), so I'm pretty confident in my purchase since these are for five-year backup cycles.

Now off to run diagnostics.
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  #24  
06-18-2021, 11:46 PM
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Good going and good backups!
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  #25  
06-19-2021, 01:05 AM
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I'm restoring a backup as we speak.

People don't often talk about this aspect. When you restore, don't restore everything in one go. That will overheat the drives. I'm doing 500gb chunks, short rest (10-15 minutes or so), 500gb more.

Just now getting around to installing my new Samsung 8tb SSD QVO, restoring the data from the failed Seagate 5tb, to a new Seagate 5tb, as backed up to the Seagate 8tb. I had to order a quality SATA power cable splitter from Amazon, ran out, so can't access my Seagate 16tb, swiped it for the SSD.

The backup was a bit stale, so I lost some data, but nothing (I don't think, I hope) that cannot be redone within a few days.

Overall, it takes some days to get data restored. I also audit everything, verify, before calling the restore a success.

You can automate all of this with $$$$ and NAS, but I don't want that. I want backup drives unplugged, no power, no connection, in a drawer until needed (routine backup or restore).

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Originally Posted by Reading Bug View Post
I'm planning to join Datahoarder and was going to ask there, but thought I should here too. Thanks.
But come back here, ask questions, spread knowledge.

I'm there as well, lingyi and nicholasserra are there.

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  #26  
06-19-2021, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I'm restoring a backup as we speak.

People don't often talk about this aspect. When you restore, don't restore everything in one go. That will overheat the drives. I'm doing 500gb chunks, short rest (10-15 minutes or so), 500gb more.
This may be true for externals, but drives in a PC or in a properly cooled multi-bay enclosure can be safely run for days. When I transferred 9TB to my new 14TB drive, It took almost two days and I had to do it twice immediately after since I brainfarted and formatted the destination drive immediately after the transfer was done! I routinely copy TBs of data from drive to drive without stopping.

Part of my and others routine at DataHoarders is to stress test new drives by running a program to write and read to the entire drive or what I do is completely fill to the drive, then format and write the data again for actual use. Note that I always shuck my externals and use the bare drives in my multi-bay enclosures.

Quote:
Overall, it takes some days to get data restored. I also audit everything, verify, before calling the restore a success.
+1 to your process! Verification can be done automatically, immediately after the write. I use Teracopy, but there are other programs that can also do the job. Once the copying is done, I use ViceVersa to verify that both drives contents are identical.

Quote:
You can automate all of this with $$$$ and NAS, but I don't want that. I want backup drives unplugged, no power, no connection, in a drawer until needed (routine backup or restore).
Oh...don't get me started on NAS and RAID which are considered a necessity by many at Datahoarder.

Not everyone, including myself has a need or desire for a NAS or RAID. I currently have 116TB RAW, ~80TB used, housed in non-NAS, non-RAID enclosures. I have two setups, with the second a mirror backup of the first and I'm in the process of create a third full mirror set of drives (I currently have ~50TB full backed up). I have enough space to backup everything, but want to save to an exact mirror of my two other setups, with drives ranging from 8-14TB. Stupid Chia put a hold to my plans to get 16TB drives to replace some of my 8TB ones.

Quote:
I'm there as well, lingyi and nicholasserra are there.
Yeah nicholasserra's great thread (with your as always insightful and excellent posts) about video capturing is in the Datahoarder Wiki.
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  #27  
06-19-2021, 03:11 AM
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In regard to HDD heat...

I do video. Video has audio. I cannot wear headphones. Audio needs quiet. As such, my computers are not wind tunnels with mini-turbines. I go for far more passive and well-thought-out cooling, which is silent to quiet. So "properly" (fans) cooled doesn't happen. And yes, even slow-moving 140mm fans create wind tunnels that make audio restoration impossible. The HDD make enough noise already, and that's using quiet Seagates.

When I have to copy large amounts of data, I put a regular fan next to the system, and that makes wimpy little spinny computer fans look quaint and amusing, in terms of cooling power. Regular 30s (C) temps drop way down in the 20s. The copy processes never get over 40.

Almost every time I have lost a drive over the years, heat was the problem, and during copy processes. Drives get massively hot during long copy sessions. And past failures happened on non-video systems as well (ie, bay of fans cranking away).

You also need to remember where I live. It's hot. We have AC, but it's hot. Today is in the 90s (F), the AC can only get into the highest 70s (otherwise it'll have problems, in addition to more energy costs). Add to that the state warning all residents to cut power use, and turn up the AC. I don't ever want to go through another rolling blackout, that sucked.

So, for me, due to experience, better safe than sorry. Losing a drive sucks. Losing a new drive because you pushed it too hard would suck more.

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  #28  
06-19-2021, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
You also need to remember where I live. It's hot. We have AC, but it's hot.
I thought Smurf Village was always cool. That's why you're all such a lovely blue!
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  #29  
06-19-2021, 01:35 PM
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So I have the chance to pick up two more 8TB My Books from Best Buy, which would have me all set for the next five years. But I'm still feeling a couple things out. One is trusting my entire digital library to just one brand and model. I know there's no need for brand concern, but it seems like a good, common sense stance to spread things across more than just one manufacturer. The other thing is that I'd like to support the one remaining manufacturer who isn't WD or Seagate, but Toshiba doesn't offer 8TB externals (that I've seen).

They do have these 4TB portables:

https://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-Canvi.../dp/B08JKCWRTD

But I'd have to deal with four of them running around instead of just two 8's. And they're portables. Though I have enough data that I can probably just load them with write-once, read rarely content (storing them, either locally or offsite, means they're being accessed just a few times a year). I can leave newer data for the My Books.

The thing about Toshiba is that their drives don't seem as widespread, nor their lines very ambitious. They've apparently stopped making desktop externals, B&H doesn't carry Toshiba externals of any kind, and Office Depot will only ship them. Amazon and NewEgg have them though.

As for capacity, I suppose there's also the possibility of purchasing two internals like X300 8TBs and enclosing them, but that hardly seems worth the effort (and maybe not the price). Either way I've never done internal/external swaps before (shucking et al).

It might just be easier with the portables, or easier still with all My Books.
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  #30  
06-19-2021, 02:18 PM
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As I posted above, Toshiba portables have the USB interface and port integrated into the mainboard like WD. I'm not sure if they can be modded to a SATA port like WDs if/when the interface or port breaks. May not be an issue, but IMO, why take the risk, trouble and cost when Seagate portables are regular SATA with a detachable interface.

IMO, you're overthinking and over complicating things. No matter how carefully you plan things, Murphy's Law has a way of happening. A month ago I was creating a second backup of one my drives. I wasn't in the room and somehow a folding table fell and hit the enclosure I had the drives in. The drive I was writing to went from 0 bad sectors to 7700+ in an instant. Somehow, the three other drives are okay.
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  #31  
06-19-2021, 03:03 PM
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I highly recommend you visit Datahoarder. Start by reading this from the Wiki: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/wiki/index, do a search for backup strategies and browse at least a couple of weeks of posts because your questions have been asked and answered numerous times there.

You'll find much of what I've posted here, repeated there (especially by me <GRIN>). I'm confident you'll find that while specific recommendations may vary, everyone agrees the most important thing is backup, backup, backup!

Here's a couple of searches to help:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder...&restrict_sr=1

https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder...&restrict_sr=1
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  #32  
06-19-2021, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reading Bug View Post
lingyi, do you know why Toshiba external desktops seem to have disappeared? It doesn't seem likely to be the chip shortage as everyone else is doing fine and prices seem to be coming down.

I'm planning to join Datahoarder and was going to ask there, but thought I should here too. Thanks.
Best guess is Seagate and WD have been in a price war for years and Toshiba chose not to compete. Toshiba a far third in sales behind Seagate and WD. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomcoug...h=1002e9b37aae

Because of the low price of externals and the probability of their being mostly binned drives, Toshiba doesn't have enough volume to make it profitable at the prices Seagate and WD are selling their externals.

Edit: If you're wondering what Toshiba does with their binned drives if they're not selling them as externals, they probably sell them to companies like White Label and Water Panther who sell them as unknown manufacturer refurbs or sold for use as OEM drives in PC builds where there's no guarantee of drive specs or type of drive. They may also be used for RMA, which is usually a refurb.

FYI, after years of speculation that not much profit is made off externals, I finally got confirmation from the BackBlaze employee who posts at Datahoarder, that they're able to buy Enterprise drives for less than external. But, that's only because they're finally able to commit to buy 10K+ drives a month.

In their blog, Backblaze has stated they've shucked externals in the past because they were cheaper than their distributor's price. But this was then they were buying in lots of 100's or low 1000's.

In 2011/2012 when the Thailand WD factory flood caused drive prices to skyrocket, Backblaze experimented with buying 40 or so 8TB Seagate Archive externals because they were cheaper than what their cost for internals were. The experiment was quickly ended as the drives failed quickly because it was outside of their intended design.

Note that a Backblaze failure isn't what a consumer considers a failure, which is generally when a drive isn't recognized or files show signs of corruption. Backblaze considers a drive failure based on their very strict custom SMART stats that predicts when a drive will possibly fail. This is one of the reasons I take their published stats with a huge grain of salt. Thankfully, they state that their stats are only for their particular usage.
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  #33  
06-20-2021, 01:20 PM
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Thanks again, lingyi. I think you're right. I'm overthinking it. I'll probably try out a pair of 8TB Seagate Backup Pluses. Thinking back on it, I've been reluctant to run with Seagate because their portable enclosures seemed cheaply built, and they're commonly mentioned as failing sooner for more people. Just gave me a bad vibe. Maybe the desktop externals are a different experience (I have an old 500GB FreeAgent from about 2009 that still runs nice and quiet last I checked).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
Part of my and others routine at DataHoarders is to stress test new drives by running a program to write and read to the entire drive or what I do is completely fill to the drive, then format and write the data again for actual use.
In terms of confidence in the full drive, my routine has been to run a complete diagnostic using HD Tune Pro's Error Scan. Obviously that doesn't write to the entire drive, but it does read every sector and verifies whether it's "ok" or "damaged." Is that not good enough?

Apologies if this is searchable on Datahoarder, but I wanted to respond to your quote directly and ask because I've thought about doing what you do, but it just seemed like a lot of work with no reasoning I could see that it's advantageous over simply scanning each sector. I guess what I told myself was, "if all the sectors are 'ok' I should be able to fill the entire drive successfully. Great. So I do that and then what? The drive being full doesn't seem like valuable proof over the Error Scan's 100% ok." But maybe it is?

Last edited by Reading Bug; 06-20-2021 at 01:36 PM.
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  #34  
06-20-2021, 02:09 PM
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Edit: These are good questions. Please don't hesitate to ask them. However, as I've said, don't overthink and overanalyze it. You can only do so much to try and ensure your data's integrity. Do the best you can and move on. Plan for a five year retention, but be prepared to perform upkeep and revisions at regular intervals. And weigh the cost and importance of your data against other things in life. You may find that paying for and stressing about your data may not be as important in the grand scheme of things than you think it is right now.

As lordsmurf points out in his post above, writing to a hard drive generates heat and stresses the drive. Better to stress and test a new drive for a few days/weeks, when it's more likely for any electronics to fail than. This is my part of my logic for not using new drives for archive. If it's going to fail, I'd rather have it happen during the warranty period rather than storing it away and finding out it went bad after the warranty.

I don't know the technical aspects of it, but to my limited understanding, only by writing and reading data to a block/sector can it be found to to be bad. I remember watching with fascination, Spinrite writing and reading each block/sector numerous times before it was finally declared uncorrectable.

Here's what others at Datahoarder say: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder...&restrict_sr=1

Edit: I've had several discussions at Datahoarder about the difference between readable vs bit accurate data. Along the hard drive data read chain, there's built in error correction. https://www.google.com/search?q=hard...hrome&ie=UTF-8

The end user result is that the read/copied data is identical to the original. So what's the issue? The issue is that the error correction may not be be 100% accurate all the time. A few missing bits or bytes may not make a difference in the playback of a movie or audio file, but it may be critical if it happens in a legal document or videogame, causing game to glitch or freeze at a critical moment.

My realization of the importance of having a bit for bit accurate copy of the data on your hard drive, optical disc or tape came when I first used EAC (Exact Audio Copy) to rip my CDs. In Accuraterip mode, it can be set to compensate for errors in the CD reader and will make multiple attempts to make a exact bit for bit copy of a track. https://www.exactaudiocopy.de/en/ind.../accurate-rip/

Is the difference made by Accuraterip noticeable by anyone but Golden Ears? Probably not. But like Golden Eyes like lordsmurf can see and identify video artifacts that I just can't see, the data accuracy and integrity is there for those who who can appreciate it.

Last edited by lingyi; 06-20-2021 at 02:53 PM.
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  #35  
06-20-2021, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
Edit: These are good questions. Please don't hesitate to ask them. However, as I've said, don't overthink and overanalyze it. You can only do so much to try and ensure your data's integrity. Do the best you can and move on. Plan for a five year retention, but be prepared to perform upkeep and revisions at regular intervals. And weigh the cost and importance of your data against other things in life. You may find that paying for and stressing about your data may not be as important in the grand scheme of things than you think it is right now.
Great point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
As lordsmurf points out in his post above, writing to a hard drive generates heat and stresses the drive. Better to stress and test a new drive for a few days/weeks, when it's more likely for any electronics to fail than. This is my part of my logic for not using new drives for archive. If it's going to fail, I'd rather have it happen during the warranty period rather than storing it away and finding out it went bad after the warranty.
This makes sense. With new drives, I'm intending to load them right away so much of the writing will be happening during the warranty for sure. I'm at 12TB total right now, which means putting about 6 on each 8TB drive. So maybe I'll fill them with a redundant 2, then delete after. Or maybe I won't sweat it if I reevaluate how important this is, like you suggest. All my data to date can be restored from the older drives being retired anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
The end user result is that the read/copied data is identical to the original. So what's the issue? The issue is that the error correction may not be be 100% accurate all the time. A few missing bits or bytes may not make a difference in the playback of a movie or audio file, but it may be critical if it happens in a legal document or videogame, causing game to glitch or freeze at a critical moment.
I haven't dipped into software to verify data accuracy (though I do use EAC for CD rips). Mostly because I take the time to check the bytes "by hand," checking Properties on PC. See attachment. It's a tedious extra step I suppose, but if I've done drive diagnostics and the OS always confirms bytes are identical after each and every transfer, I'm satisfied and stop worrying there.

Thanks again for the Datahoarder links. I'll take a look at those too.


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  #36  
06-21-2021, 12:07 AM
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A file size compare, especially on large files like videos can be deceptive. I've compared videos of the exact same file size and one is unplayable.

The proper way to compare files is to run a CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check) and optionally save the HASH for future reference. https://computer.howstuffworks.com/encryption7.htm

I use Teracopy with verify on when copying files, It will show any files that didn't match exactly, then you can redo the copy of those files. I then use ViceVersa to compare the directories/folders to see if the files sizes match exactly. If I want to compare files that have already been copied, ViceVersa with a CRC and generate a HASH.

BTW, I never directly move important files, I always copy, then delete after the copy is done. This minimizes the possibility that something (like power loss) can interrupt the move and leave the original file and copy corrupted.
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  #37  
06-21-2021, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
Edit: These are good questions. Please don't hesitate to ask them. However, as I've said, don't overthink and overanalyze it. You can only do so much to try and ensure your data's integrity.
Will the HDD get mold?
Can I put the HDD in a paper bag in a box? Will that help?

Quote:
But like Golden Eyes like lordsmurf can see and identify video artifacts that I just can't see,
Just to add on this, yes, I can see most every flaw...

... but I'm a pragmatist, and will ignore things that don't interrupt enjoyable watching. It's errors that are distracting that need to go -- such as timing wiggles, lost color data, tearing, tracking, audio skew due to dropped frames, etc -- that must be fixed, using a mix of hardware correction before capture, restoration post-capture). Video can never be perfect, but it should be excellent.

I often make comments like "mask it and move on", and yet some folks get some ridiculous idea that I'm a video purist. Nope! Never have been, never will be. There is always an acceptable % of video errors, and an unacceptable %. There's actually few in-between errors. There are people at VH who want to filter video in Avisynth, but the source looks/sounds perfectly fine already -- they're nuts (extreme OCD), and too much time on their hands.

Now then...

When my data was recovered from my failed drives all those years ago, I got back 99% of it. Some files were not 100%, but also 99%, and had tiny video errors. Not too different from digital broadcast transport stream drops. These blips annoy me, because I knew it was 100% long ago, and I've replaced what I could (some is rarer video), but I can still enjoy the other 99%.

Missing data isn't really the same as video errors (or audio errors). With some files, any 1 or 0 that is missing renders it worthless. So testing is imperative.

I also use Teracopy, have for years.

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  #38  
06-21-2021, 01:23 AM
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Will the HDD get mold?
Can I put the HDD in a paper bag in a box? Will that help?
Must...resist...temptation...I've been good!
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  #39  
06-21-2021, 01:28 AM
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Must...resist...temptation...I've been good!
I've often not been in a good mood, for months now, but you often cheer me up, at least for a few moments.

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  #40  
06-21-2021, 09:03 PM
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I've been figuring out a testing method for the new drives, and looked over material from Datahoarders to balance thoroughness with not going overboard. A lot of folks there are talking internals and RAID arrays, neither of which applies to me. Full reads and writes come up frequently though. A user named HittingSmoke suggests "Smart for testing the disk surface, fio for testing the mechanics." I think he means a long Smart test for checking the disk surface, which can take hours or even a full day. I don't know about Fios; never heard of it, it seems intense and it looks like it's only for Linux (or at least there's no GUI version for PC).

So I'm thinking:
1. CrystalDiskInfo - to check Power On Hours to confirm it's a new drive.
2. HD Tune - for Error Scans, et al. What I'm used to and trust, for what it's worth.
3. DiskCheckup - for a long Smart test. Maybe.
4. Then filling the drive for a full read/write.

My questions, which don't seem to be on Datahoarder, are:
1. Is a long Smart test necessary with the above, or is HD Tune plus a full read/write good enough?

2. Regarding heat, is it a problem testing an external for up to a full day?

3. lingyi, you mentioned you do a full read/write, then format to write again. I saw someone else mention this too. Why reformat?

Thanks again for indulging me. Once I have a good MO going, I won't need to ask again.
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