Background noise in VHS capture, due to bad setup or degraded?

[Duxa]

Hi all, I digitized some family VHS tapes about 15 years ago using a Panasonic PAL/NTSC VCR to some sort of digital input into the computer (if I remember right it was a Hauppauge TV card).

Going through the digital files now I noticed a really annoying background noise. I am attaching sample. I want to know if this type of noise is typical for a degraded VHS? (At the time of capture VHS was about 15 years old). Or was my setup at the time bad and introduced the noise?

Source VHS is PAL, and likely recorded in LP (although I am not sure on the last part).

While I still have the VCR (it has not been turned on since that capture, so not clear if it even still works), the capture card will certainly not work on anything post Win XP.

Before I go into a rabbit hole of spending money to try and rebuild the setup I want to make sure that the noise is not due to simply degraded VHS. It would be a bummer to finally get it set up and find out that the noise is there on the VHS. Currently the tape is about 30 years old. From what I understand its unlikely I can get as good of video quality out of it anymore, but maybe if issue was my setup I can get audio out and merge it with video I already have.

Another question would be, not sure if this is correct place to ask. But is there some way to postprocess take out that noise? Or at least dampen it?

Sample attached.

[latreche34]

What background noise you are talking about? Post an original sample, All I see is a heavily compressed screen capture of the player.

[Duxa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

What background noise you are talking about? Post an original sample, All I see is a heavily compressed screen capture of the player.

Hmm, you really cant hear the background noise? I dont even know how to describe it. Like someone is rubbing on the microphone maybe?

EDIT: after thinking a bit I realized what it sounds like. Sounds like back in the day you would get audio noise from analog audio due to poor shielding? Maybe? Maybe that means it was indeed the setup. I think I had similar type of noise before we all switched to USB/Bluetooth audio for our computers when plugging in to front analog headphone jacks on a PC tower, those wires ran through the case and sometimes introduced noise, sounded just like this if I remember right. Question then to the experts. What are the chances the VHS tape is still fine 30 years later? Is that even possible?

here I am attaching another sample, the problem is that in the entire video there is either music, or talking or street noise... so no good part of quiet to point out the noise. But here there is no singing just street noise, maybe you can hear it better here.

[Hushpower]

I can. It's quite obvious. Can't offer any solutions though.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duxa

Hmm, you really cant hear the background noise? I dont even know how to describe it. Like someone is rubbing on the microphone maybe?

Before I write my answer I read the entire post twice and could not find any mention of audio noise, All I read was VHS background noise.

[Duxa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Before I write my answer I read the entire post twice and could not find any mention of audio noise, All I read was VHS background noise.

Ah, I see now, I didnt think that "noise" can be read as video noise. My bad. Glad we cleared it up

Yeah I am talking about Audio.

[timtape]

This is an interesting and unusual fault. It's not a noise as such but more like momentary dropouts in whatever audio was recorded with the mic. But specifically dropouts of one part of the audio spectrum. I've not seen or heard this on a VCR camera recording before. Here's a screenshot of the dropouts (circled) which are represented as a series of vertical dark lines showing where the signal drops out.

[timtape]

Here's an attempt to lessen the effect of the dropouts in one file. The three sections are: before/after/before.

[timtape]

As to whether the fault is in the tape I guess the only way to know is test play it but on a deck in excellent condition. Generally, well stored VHS tapes have lasted well. The audio effect here isn't typical of VHS tapes, degraded or not. It's quite unusual in my experience.

[Duxa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Here's an attempt to lessen the effect of the dropouts in one file. The three sections are: before/after/before.

Definitely an improvement, but I think you guys encouraged me in trying to get the setup together and try and recapture. I found the capture card. Its an AVerMedia PCI-E card (although I dont remember if this is what I captured the video on or not). I dont have original box, so not sure about the model (doesnt say on the PCB). Attaching a picture though.

Now need to dust off the VCR and the tapes... crossing fingers they are functional after so many years. Any advice on if I should maybe open up the VCR before powering it on and check capacitors or lube up the head or anything?

[lordsmurf]

I'll have to look deeper at this post, look at samples. Do that later, busy now, real life family medical issues ongoing.

But a quickie comment: AverMedia was never known for quality anything, and it's usually lackluster at capturing. Skimming the topic, it may be settings or capture software, but it's probably all of it. Best to start over, good card, good software (VirtualDub 1.9.x, good settings.

But also don't randomly buy cards from Amazon/eBay/etc.

[Duxa]

Wow, thanks all for such an educational experience. As I read more and more about it I learn more and more. Like I just found out there is almost a dozen different PAL formats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL#PAL_broadcast_systems

Among the differences is the "sound spacing" (whatever that means), maybe capturing in wrong PAL format is what caused those dropouts that were mentioned by timtape

the VCR used for playback is Panasonic NV-HD650AM
I pulled up the manual and it doesnt mention what type of PAL is used in playback.

[latreche34]

I don't think that applies to your case since you most likely have linear mono judging by the quality, The wiki article is talking about HiFi Stereo.

[Duxa]

this is the VCR, says it supports PAL B/G.I.D and has "German Stereo" whatever that means lol (see attached picture).

Now question is, which PAL version should I pick in VirtualDub? Options are:

PAL B
PAL D
PAL G
PAL H
PAL I
PAL M
PAL N
PAL 60

VCR doesnt playback 60, N, M or H

So that leaves:

PAL B
PAL G
PAL I
PAL D

I guess perhaps a simpler question would be... how to tell if something is wrong if I have wrong PAL selected? Anything to look out for or listen for? Im ok with doing method of elimination to find the correct one, but Im not sure what to look for in playback/capture.

[latreche34]

There is only one VHS PAL system, The one that works in color that's the one, The reference to the PAL standards in the VCR box is for tuner reception capabilities, it has nothing to do with the VCR section. The choice of broadcast standards in capture software menu such as PAL B, G ... is because back in the day people used capture cards to record over the air and satellite channels into computer so choosing the right standard is important, Not relevant to VHS tapes. NICAM stereo is a digital audio reception, a special decoder used inside the VCR's tuner that decodes it into analog stereo and recorded into the VCR's HiFi audio track, again nothing special about VHS PAL.

VHS format has 3 and only 3 standards, NTSC, PAL and SECAM, Later Hybrid formats emerged to fulfill display compatibility needs, such as PAL60, NTSC 4.43, MESECAM, none of this was part of the VHS specification or part of a broadcast system such as B, G, T ...etc for that matter.
Hope this helps clear things up.

[Duxa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

There is only one VHS PAL system, The one that works in color that's the one, The reference to the PAL standards in the VCR box is for tuner reception capabilities, it has nothing to do with the VCR section. The choice of broadcast standards in capture software menu such as PAL B, G ... is because back in the day people used capture cards to record over the air and satellite channels into computer so choosing the right standard is important, Not relevant to VHS tapes. NICAM stereo is a digital audio reception, a special decoder used inside the VCR's tuner that decodes it into analog stereo and recorded into the VCR's HiFi audio track, again nothing special about VHS PAL.

VHS format has 3 and only 3 standards, NTSC, PAL and SECAM, Later Hybrid formats emerged to fulfill display compatibility needs, such as PAL60, NTSC 4.43, MESECAM, none of this was part of the VHS specification or part of a broadcast system such as B, G, T ...etc for that matter.
Hope this helps clear things up.

wow yeah! thanks for the explanation!

I am currently going through tapes trying to find the one I need to recapture, will report if noise is on the tape. (so far confirmed VCR works after being in the box for 15 years!)

Ill probably need to start another thread about deinterlacing... I did some test captures and its all interlaced.. not sure if I should be deinterlacing during capture or after, and how to do it with minimal or no quality loss.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duxa

... not sure if I should be deinterlacing during capture or after, and how to do it with minimal or no quality loss.

Nope, don't do that. De-interlacing is always lossy for native interlaced contents such as video tapes.

[Hushpower]

I assume that Latreche means do not de-interlace during capture.

If you are going to de-interlace, do it in "post" ie post-capture processing.