Is my Video8 tape salvageable?

[jimca]

I'm trying to capture some old Video8 tapes using a Sony CCD-TRV75 Hi8 camcorder. I have TBC and DNR enabled.

Some of the tapes/segments of tape play back OK, but some hardly/don't play back at all. Is this an issue with my tapes, camcorder, both? How can I diagnose this?

Sample video attached.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimca

I'm trying to capture some old Video8 tapes using a Sony CCD-TRV75 Hi8 camcorder. I have TBC and DNR enabled.

Some of the tapes/segments of tape play back OK, but some hardly/don't play back at all. Is this an issue with my tapes, camcorder, both? How can I diagnose this?

Sample video attached.

Attachment 17235

Thanks for the sample. When you say "some tapes play back OK" how do you rate the sample? Is this the best playback you've had? If not could you upload the best playback the camera has managed, regardless of TBC and DNR?

[lordsmurf]

Why is it 720p (1280x720 progressive), instead of proper interlaced 720x480?

Further, what I see are digital artifacts on an analog format. Something is wrong here.
What capture card is being used?

I don't think it's the tape with the issue here.

[jimca]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Thanks for the sample. When you say "some tapes play back OK" how do you rate the sample? Is this the best playback you've had? If not could you upload the best playback the camera has managed, regardless of TBC and DNR?

This sample is 2/10. Some audio, no useful video.

Here's the best capture I've gotten. video8-demo-better.7z

It's a 6/10. The video flickers and the audio is a little distorted. I tried playing back the same tape again, and it looked just as bad as the first one.

I'm beginning to suspect it's the camera...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Why is it 720p (1280x720 progressive), instead of proper interlaced 720x480?

Further, what I see are digital artifacts on an analog format. Something is wrong here.
What capture card is being used?

I don't think it's the tape with the issue here.

Oops. I just use the default when exporting from DaVinci Resolve after cutting the sample. I thought it was smart enough to use my project settings. Guess not.

My capture setup is:

Sony CCD-TRV75 --> Blackmagic Intensity 4K (S-Video) --> Ubuntu Linux Desktop

My FA TBC arrives today, so I'll add that to the chain soon.

[lordsmurf]

That BM card is suspect here, but a proper TBC should hopefully prevent it from screwing up the VHS signal (which is common). We shall see.

I don't do the "10" scale, because it's pretty worthless. Much better is school grades. A = excellent, B = passable, could be better, C = not really acceptable, F= total failure. (No D, that letter was to make failures feel better, and I don't care about gear/tape/whatever feelings.) 10 levels of nuance are not needed.

[jimca]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I don't do the "10" scale, because it's pretty worthless. Much better is school grades. A = excellent, B = passable, could be better, C = not really acceptable, F= total failure. (No D, that letter was to make failures feel better, and I don't care about gear/tape/whatever feelings.) 10 levels of nuance are not needed.

Okay, then the first video is an F and the second is a C... barely.

I was able to use clips from the second to make a little Christmas sizzle reel for my family this year, but if a professional service gave me this result, then I would probably ask for my money back. Well, unless it truly is an issue with the tape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That BM card is suspect here, but a proper TBC should hopefully prevent it from screwing up the VHS signal (which is common). We shall see.

I'll try another capture with the frame TBC in the chain and report back. The package should be here any minute now. The playback on the camera's LCD is just as bad, and I've been getting B-grade VHS captures with a non-TBC VCR, so I won't hold my breath.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimca

This sample is 2/10. Some audio, no useful video.

Here's the best capture I've gotten. Attachment 17236

It's a 6/10. The video flickers and the audio is a little distorted. I tried playing back the same tape again, and it looked just as bad as the first one.

I'm beginning to suspect it's the camera...

Thanks for the second sample. For me the camera or deck is the most important item in the system, at least after the tapes! A PC or TBC or capture card cant damage the tapes but a faulty playback device can, regardless of the picture or sound quality. Also some tapes can destroy themselves without any help from a faulty player. They can destroy themselves perfectly well in an as new player.

Many cameras of that era had short life capacitors. Sometimes you were lucky to get 10 years out of them, regardless of how often the camera was actually used. I have a Video 8 camera on the bench now. It's full of the faulty type capacitors. Perhaps 60 of them. Unfortunately they will all need replacing, and looking closely at them, they were all replaced at some stage, so this will be at least the second full scale caps replacement.

I would confirm the camera itself is performing very well, "as new" in fact. Especially these days, a camera or deck should be thoroughly gone over by a skilled tech before trusting it with irreplaceable tapes.

[aramkolt]

What model of FA TBC did you get? You might find that capturing component (I think most For.A's have component out?) with the intensity 4k may do better than S-Video, but yeah, something seems off most likely with the camcorder. Could be the mechanism has dried up librication or the pinch roller could be cracked or bad in addition to the other mentioned potential capacitor issues. Could also make sure you don't see mold on the reels - that'd cause something like this as well.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

capturing component

Never do this. The Y/C from the tape get processed, and never in a good way. The "better" component is actually worse. (Also never confuse composite with component, not the same.)

Quote:

(I think most For.A's have component out?)

No.

Quote:

something seems off most likely with the camcorder.

OP needs to skip the capture setup for the moment, wire the camera to a TV, see if it changes anything. But do not introduce new variables, so as converters/adapters to make s-video/composite into HDMI. That will eliminate, or isolate, the BM card as the culprit.

[jimca]

Okay, ran some diagnostics. Videos attached.

• Playback with CCD-TRV75 connected directly to TV: IMG_3929-small.mp4
• Tape load noises at 7 seconds mark: IMG_3931-small.mp4
• Playback with CCD-TRV75 --> FA-125 TCB --> BM4K: IMG_3933-small.mp4

Looks like it's almost certainly an issue with the camera. The noise while loading the tape suggests a mechanical issue, maybe with the roller guides. The TBC does a surprisingly good job of cleaning up the signal, but can't compensate for a complete signal dropout (obviously). And the audio is completely distorted.

Replies below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

For me the camera or deck is the most important item in the system, at least after the tapes! ... They can destroy themselves perfectly well in an as new player.

I'll switch to using test tapes until I know I can trust this camera.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Many cameras of that era had short life capacitors. Sometimes you were lucky to get 10 years out of them ... Unfortunately they will all need replacing...

I would confirm the camera itself is performing very well, "as new" in fact. Especially these days, a camera or deck should be thoroughly gone over by a skilled tech before trusting it with irreplaceable tapes.

I see. Maybe buying a refurb camera is the easier route here. I'm reasonably comfortable with a soldering iron, but not sure I want to replace 60 caps, especially if they're surface mount. I wish I had spent some time on this site before going on FleaBay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

What model of FA TBC did you get? ... Could be the mechanism has dried up librication or the pinch roller could be cracked or bad in addition to the other mentioned potential capacitor issues. Could also make sure you don't see mold on the reels - that'd cause something like this as well.

For.A FA-125 Time Base Corrector. S-Video in and out.

It definitely needs some lube. I have the service manual, so I'll inspect for any damage. Can I just test the caps with a multimeter in-circuit?

The reels on the tapes look clean. No signs of mold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

OP needs to skip the capture setup for the moment, wire the camera to a TV, see if it changes anything. But do not introduce new variables, so as converters/adapters to make s-video/composite into HDMI. That will eliminate, or isolate, the BM card as the culprit.

Done. I believe we can eliminate the BM with the results shown above.

[lordsmurf]

Just buy another quality Hi8 camera.

Unlike VCRs, TBCs, even capture cards, eBay is still "safe" for Hi8 cameras, under the following conditions:
- Look for a camera with "extra stuff" -- all cables, manuals, even a camera bag. Those tends to be well cared for, and often are being sold by the original owner, or somebody that did buy/use/resell for digitizing.
- Avoid sellers with high feedback numbers, who are selling random crap. Those are recyclers. Most listings are from these schmucks.
- Ask questions. Any questions. What you want to see is the quality of the response, if any.
- There is a reseller of camcorders (he sells nothing else), and he's decent.

Hi8 cameras should not run more than $200 currently, and you sometimes see units under $100.

There are still some pockets of cheap good gear, and this is one of them. This could change any year now (and eventually, it will happen), so enjoy it while it lasts. This is a current glut of used supply.

[jimca]

Thanks for the tips. I ordered another camera from a seller that only deals in cameras and parts. He had it listed as refurb and it comes with a 6 month full refund warranty, so that's reassuring. He's also been responsive to my questions, so I think this is a good one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Avoid sellers with high feedback numbers, who are selling random crap. Those are recyclers.

That is exactly who I bought this from. Hopefully he lets me return it. Otherwise, it'll just be more dollars into the money pit that this project has become.