ATI, Pinnacle capture hardware and OS?

[Repeatingpower7]

Hello! I have plans to digitize my family's old VHS tapes. I've been doing my research, and from what I have read, the Pinnacle 710-USB and the ATI all-in-wonder cards are considered to be some of the best capture cards for conventional VHS capture. I have also learned that there may be some compatibility issues with newer windows machines, but that will not be an issue for me. I have lots of old windows computers, running XP, Vista, 7, 10, etc...
I would like to know why the pinnacle is better than other USB capture cards. Do the other cards force-encode the captured video as H.264?
What about the ATI AIW cards? Should I invest in this as well?
I am trying to learn as much as I can about these, so I don't buy a crap one.
Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

Note: There are versions of Pinnacle and ATI AIW cards, and only very specific versions are suggested. There's also PAL/NTSC considerations. But, yes, mostly correct here.

Converting video was a 2000s task, and it 's now the 2020s. This is why the best hardware and software (and OS) to convert is also from the 2000s, sometimes early 2010s. It's consider a legacy activity now, and most video was long ago converted. Most current conversion projects are actually redo projects, botched initial attempts that looked terrible.

A lot of "modern" (not actually) cards force lossy compression. The ATI/Pinnacle work perfectly with lossless, and the ATI also does low-end broadcast MPEG or DVD-Video MPEG.

But more important than the capture card is the VCR, and the TBC. What are your plans there?

[Repeatingpower7]

Thank you!

Currently, I have a JVC hr-s6600u (no TBC), a Panasonic DMR EZ-485 (which I will NOT be using) and a Panasonic DMR ES-10 DVD player as a weak line "TBC". These were all given to me, so I haven't bought any higher end decks yet. My plan is to digitize a few very sentimental tapes (around 10 - 15), meaning that I would work with what I currently have to make digital files for my family to watch.

I eventually want to capture the entire collection tapes as lossless, so I will eventually end up building workflow as such:
Panasonic AG-1980p > DataVideo TBC-1000 or similar > Pinnacle 710-USB, or a good ATI AIW card > One of my old windows PCs

Currently, the high end equipment is out of my budget (I am in college, it's freaking expensive!), considering that I will have to buy the Panasonic VCR, then send it to get serviced and recapped because it is super old, and see if I can get the TBC rebuilt to get the best quality output from it.

I also looked into VHS-Decode, but I really don't want to spend the time looking through schematics and building the necessary hardware to achieve that.

Do you think that it would be feasible for me to use my current equipment for those specific tapes, and then I go back to re-digitize everything when I have better equipment?

[Gary34]

If your tapes aren’t EP/SLP or VHS-C then you probably don’t need a 1980p ag. Buying from Deter seems like the way to go if you need one.

[Repeatingpower7]

As far as I know, all of my tapes were recorded in SP. I have not played each of my tapes individually yet to confirm this.

[Gary34]

1980p ags have a wider video and better built transport system which makes them better at tracking EP/SLP. There’s different versions of the 1980s. They were a long lived model.

Some recommended refurbished JVCs have a better picture than the 1980s.

There’re things to consider before you make purchases that they can help you with that idk but I guess it doesn’t matter if you aren’t purchasing now.

I will say though that the eBay 1980s that sell are way overpriced for what they are. Sellers see a high price on them and think they found a gold mine so they list it high then some buyers don’t know better and they buy high. An eBay seller saying something it’s tested and working isn’t like Deter saying it’s tested and working at all.

Playing your tapes multiple times can have an effect on the tape.

[joe79]

posted in errror

[mrmuy97]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

I have lots of old windows computers, running XP, Vista, 7, 10, etc

Excellent news. Clean, fresh, OEM install of XP and/or 7 (depending on your capture card) will be best to start from if possible. An OEM (Dell, HP, etc) computer which came with Win7 OEM installed will automatically activate a fresh Win7 OEM install due to the SLIC2.1 table in the BIOS (no product key needed).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

What about the ATI AIW cards? Should I invest in this as well?

Yes, my advice for you would be to simply buy whichever ATI capture device you prefer from lordsmurf's items --600 USB (WinXP & 7) or rare AIW PCI (WinXP, incl. cables & proper sound card).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

I am trying to learn as much as I can about these, so I don't buy a crap one.

Good plan. Majority of hardware out there is junk, with an extra helping of junk software to rub it in. That's the funny part, most people can't realize that lordsmurf's capture cards for sale are an incredibly good deal, and people will instead go buy garbage off Amazon or eBay and just throw their time and money in the trash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

I have a JVC hr-s6600u [...] and a Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD player as a weak line "TBC".

In good/excellent condition? Have you used unimportant test tapes in the VCR to check condition? Have you tested the ES10 in passthrough to check its operation? If you're comfortable enough with the most basic of disassembly, you can take off the 5 phillips-head screws for the ES10's lid and visually inspect the capacitors on the power board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

These were all given to me, so I haven't bought any higher end decks yet. My plan is to digitize a few very sentimental tapes (around 10 - 15), meaning that I would work with what I currently have to make digital files for my family to watch.

I eventually want to capture the entire collection tapes as lossless, so I will eventually end up building workflow as such:
Panasonic AG-1980p > DataVideo TBC-1000 or similar > Pinnacle 710-USB, or a good ATI AIW card > One of my old windows PCs

[...] Do you think that it would be feasible for me to use my current equipment for those specific tapes, and then I go back to re-digitize everything when I have better equipment?

If you're 100% serious about it, you could do 1 run now to get them all archived, and if/when you can upgrade equipment, do a 2nd run. In between, tapes should be stored properly to maximize their chances of surviving for however long it takes you to upgrade the VCR + TBC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

Currently, the high end equipment is out of my budget (I am in college, it's freaking expensive!), considering that I will have to buy the Panasonic VCR, then send it to get serviced and recapped because it is super old, and see if I can get the TBC rebuilt to get the best quality output from it.

Don't limit yourself to a 1980P just because of what you see online about it. There are lots of good options out there, especially if you're doing all SP tapes. Keep your eyes open, check specific yard sales, always be asking people in the 30+ age range if they happen to have any of their old VCRs packed away somewhere. Be sending messages on FB marketplace, eBay, etc, explaining that you're a broke college student trying to pick up some decent equipment for your family videos. You'll be surprised at some of the responses & offers you'll get. You could stumble across a mint 7500 out of nowhere, have it priced super low, and suddenly you have a new main deck with line TBC and the 6600 is your testing/ secondary machine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

I also looked into VHS-Decode, but I really don't want to spend the time looking through schematics and building the necessary hardware to achieve that.

I'd be the first one to tout VHS-Decode if there was any use for it currently. It's such a great concept. But right now (as it has been for years) it's like the first Iron Man movie: Tony Stark (a single person) is tinkering with a bunch of random low-quality parts and so far has managed to create a rudimentary prototype as their proof-of-concept. That's great for blasting yourself out of a cave and into the middle of the desert where you crash land, but useless for everyone else. Hopefully someday it gets completed, but it's starting to look like the analog tape era will be pretty much done by the time that happens, if it ever does.

[Repeatingpower7]

Thank you for your detailed response!

Quote:

If you're 100% serious about it, you could do 1 run now to get them all archived, and if/when you can upgrade equipment, do a 2nd run. In between, tapes should be stored properly to maximize their chances of surviving for however long it takes you to upgrade the VCR + TBC.

I guess it is a smart idea to do an entire run now... I will have time this summer.

Quote:

In good/excellent condition? Have you used unimportant test tapes in the VCR to check condition? Have you tested the ES10 in passthrough to check its operation? If you're comfortable enough with the most basic of disassembly, you can take off the 5 phillips-head screws for the ES10's lid and visually inspect the capacitors on the power board.

The VCR seems to be fully operational, I will take it apart and clean the tape path before running my tapes through there. I am comfortable with taking these things apart, I used to repair Xbox 360's, and let me tell you the kinds of leaky capacitors I'd see in there will make you think "how the hell does this thing still work?" I do not know what the ES10 looks like on the inside, but I have tried it with passthrough and it seems to be running smoothly. I will check it and if there are any bad caps I will replace them.

Quote:

Don't limit yourself to a 1980P just because of what you see online about it. There are lots of good options out there, especially if you're doing all SP tapes. Keep your eyes open, check specific yard sales, always be asking people in the 30+ age range if they happen to have any of their old VCRs packed away somewhere. Be sending messages on FB marketplace, eBay, etc, explaining that you're a broke college student trying to pick up some decent equipment for your family videos. You'll be surprised at some of the responses & offers you'll get. You could stumble across a mint 7500 out of nowhere, have it priced super low, and suddenly you have a new main deck with line TBC and the 6600 is your testing/ secondary machine.

That is a great idea, I'll start to reach out to people when I leave for summer break.

Quote:

Yes, my advice for you would be to simply buy whichever ATI capture device you prefer from lordsmurf's items --600 USB (WinXP & 7) or rare AIW PCI (WinXP, incl. cables & proper sound card).

I do have a question for you about the AIW cards. I have not educated myself about them. Besides the ones lordsmurf has for sale, what are the best models of ATI capture cards? Is there any difference between the AGP vs the PCI AIW cards? And what about sound cards?

[Gary34]

Quote:

Good plan. Majority of hardware out there is junk, with an extra helping of junk software to rub it in. That's the funny part, most people can't realize that lordsmurf's capture cards for sale are an incredibly good deal, and people will instead go buy garbage off Amazon or eBay and just throw their time and money in the trash.

Quote:

Don't limit yourself to a 1980P just because of what you see online about it. There are lots of good options out there, especially if you're doing all SP tapes. Keep your eyes open, check specific yard sales, always be asking people in the 30+ age range if they happen to have any of their old VCRs packed away somewhere. Be sending messages on FB marketplace, eBay, etc, explaining that you're a broke college student trying to pick up some decent equipment for your family videos. You'll be surprised at some of the responses & offers you'll get. You could stumble across a mint 7500 out of nowhere, have it priced super low, and suddenly you have a new main deck with line TBC and the 6600 is your testing/ secondary machine.

These statements seem contradictory.

Quote:

You'll be surprised at some of the responses & offers you'll get. You could stumble across a mint 7500 out of nowhere, have it priced super low, and suddenly you have a new main deck with line TBC and the 6600 is your testing/ secondary machine.

Sorry for the stupid question but which deck are you talking about when you said 7500 with line TBC?

-- merged --

Well you are probably talking about the JVC HR-S7500U and not the HR-S7500EH. I didn’t know if he was PAL or not though.

[mrmuy97]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

I guess it is a smart idea to do an entire run now... I will have time this summer.

My thought is that you never know what will happen, so the sooner, the better for an initial capture. This is as soon as you have your capture workflow properly prepared -- VCR properly cleaned, checked over, verified with test tapes, ES10 recapped & configured, capture computer & device configured correctly. Then you are set to do 1 run of each tape, rewind, and store for if/when you do a 2nd run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

The VCR seems to be fully operational, I will take it apart and clean the tape path before running my tapes through there. I am comfortable with taking these things apart

Just be careful, analog tape devices are unique & delicate. Follow the proper tape path and head cleaning steps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

I used to repair Xbox 360's, and let me tell you the kinds of leaky capacitors I'd see in there will make you think "how the hell does this thing still work?" I do not know what the ES10 looks like on the inside, but I have tried it with passthrough and it seems to be running smoothly. I will check it and if there are any bad caps I will replace them.

My advice, take off the lid, do the disassembly required to remove the power board, be gentle on the bare connector as you invert the board if not disconnecting it to remove for the work, be even more gentle if removing. You'll see the 8 that need to be replaced, and 2 optional (I say do them all). Understand that just 1 cap out of spec can cause issues which may not be obvious, and it's almost a guarantee that most or all of them are out of spec. I do not recommend using the visual "it looks good/ it looks bad" method for this particular situation. The smart choice is to do a power board recap job, check it off the pre-capture maintenance list, and move on to the next task. Taking the "nah, it'll be fine" approach is how people get themselves into needless trouble and wasted time down the road. Make your choice wisely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repeatingpower7

I do have a question for you about the AIW cards. I have not educated myself about them. Besides the ones lordsmurf has for sale, what are the best models of ATI capture cards? Is there any difference between the AGP vs the PCI AIW cards? And what about sound cards?

I'm not familiar with them either, and I haven't used one yet. But, short answer: lordsmurf only sells the best models of any analog capture devices, so that's easy. Whether there's an objective singular "best" device between them, LS would have to chime in. I can tell you I've helped members who use multiple ATI capture devices purchased from LS and all of them were phenomenal quality captured in VirtualDub. The difference between interface types is mainly a matter of the hardware era when the device was created. As for sound cards, again, since the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz is included, safe to say that's the best one to use. It was famous for outclassing the mainstream Creative SoundBlaster cards of the time, though I imagine its preference with the AIW for capturing is probably due to other factors.

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Right now you have an easily achievable goal set. Your monetary cost for the capture device is minimal compared to if you needed to build an entire workflow from scratch. Your time cost can be minimized by setting yourself up for success. Find experts with experience and proven success to learn from. Prepare and execute in a logical fashion and this can be an enjoyable and rewarding project for you.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

These statements seem contradictory.

1a. Question about ATI AIW capture cards & not purchasing a cheap POS
1b. Most capture hardware & software is junk, recommend buying ATI from LS

2a. Statement sounding resigned to eventually spending $1500+ for a Deter rebuilt 1980P
2b. Or you might find a mint high-end deck at an extremely low price, the complete opposite of the 1980 scenario

?? They're just two opinions, each addressing whatever specific quote precedes them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

[...] which deck are you talking about [...] I didn’t know if he was PAL or not

If he encounters a scenario like my hypothetical one, but it's the wrong region, he could still buy it (since it's a lucky find of a mint high-end deck for an extremely low price) and decide to keep it (its value being much greater than the $20 or $40 paid for it) or list it on here for sale. If I were looking for PAL but came across a NIB 7900U for $50, I'd still buy it and list it on here for someone who needs it. Same applies to any other piece of hardware if I know it's needed by the community, even if I personally won't use it.

[Gary34]

Quote:

If he encounters a scenario like my hypothetical one, but it's the wrong region, he could still buy it (since it's a lucky find of a mint high-end deck for an extremely low price) and decide to keep it (its value being much greater than the $20 or $40 paid for it) or list it on here for sale. If I were looking for PAL but came across a NIB 7900U for $50, I'd still buy it and list it on here for someone who needs it. Same applies to any other piece of hardware if I know it's needed by the community, even if I personally won't use it.

I had just seen that the HR-S7500EH doesn’t have a TBC. I was just wanting to point that out then I thought we’ll he’s probably not talking about that anyways.

Quote:

2a. Statement sounding resigned to eventually spending $1500+ for a Deter rebuilt 1980P
2b. Or you might find a mint high-end deck at an extremely low price, the complete opposite of the 1980 scenario

Buying a 1980 for a project that is SP is a bad idea. They have a lot of issues compared to the JVCs. Yeah I see you are trying to help. If he is going to do that be careful. Good luck to him.

[mrmuy97]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

I had just seen that the HR-S7500EH doesn’t have a TBC. I was just wanting to point that out then I thought we’ll he’s probably not talking about that anyways.

Ah I see what you meant now. Didn't know you were pointing out lack of line TBC on the PAL version. Correct, I was just picking a random good (NTSC) VCR with line TBC, and it could be substituted with any recommended model that isn't a 1980 in that example -- Maybe I should have explicitly said "any other VCR on the recommended deck list."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

Buying a 1980 for a project that is SP is a bad idea. They have a lot of issues compared to the JVCs.

Right, I guess I wasn't clear, I didn't bring up or recommend that he buy a 1980 at all. He said he eventually wanted to get one. At present, a vetted 6600 is fine to start with to get his initial captures done. But the next deck doesn't need to be a 1980, especially without learning more about all the other recommended VCR options on the list. E.g. one of my best decks was a chance find of a recommended VCR that I paid peanuts for, immaculate in the original box with everything, works fantastic. My point was that there's deals out there to be had while he's in college on a tight budget way before a rebuilt 1980 is an option, so don't limit yourself to just that one model when there are many other great options at a much lower price.

[Gary34]

Quote:

Right, I guess I wasn't clear, I didn't bring up or recommend that he buy a 1980 at all.

I know you didn’t.

Quote:

one of my best decks was a chance find of a recommended VCR that I paid peanuts for, immaculate in the original box with everything, works fantastic.

That is really good.