Better quality Hi8 captures, cleaning vs. retry?

[Boppo]

I'm done transferring 220 MiniDV tapes and are now doing my Hi8 tapes. I have 104 Hi8 tapes. I've done 71 of them and have 33 more to do.

Right now I'm transferring tapes from 1996. First I rewind them and then start playback. The first time I play them the capture have disturbances. So I rewind them again and do it over again, most times with a good result. A few tapes I have to do a third time before the capture is OK.

The tapes have 28 years so it's not surprising there might be some problems.

Questions:
1. Playing the tapes more than once seems to get a better quality. Rewinding and fast forwarding doesn't seem to improve the quality as good as just playing them. Is this right?
2. I know I could try to clean the heads. I have an old cleaning cassette that probably already used. Rewinding that one and using it might be a bad idea. Another option would be cleaning the manually. However my concern is that I risk to worsen the quality. I'm afraid of that as I only have 33 more tapes to do.
What do you think?

[vwestlife]

With that large quantity of tapes to transfer, you might want to do the 12voltvids trick and leave off the camcorder housing to give you easy access to the video head drum, without needing to disassembly it. He even does the (probably not recommended) technique of using your fingernail to gently scrape dirt off of the head while playing a tape.

[Boppo]

The main question was "Playing the tapes more than once seems to get a better quality. Rewinding and fast forwarding doesn't seem to improve the quality as good as just playing them. Is this right?"

With this old Hi8 tapes it seems like the first playback is bad, the second is OK and the third time it's good. Howcome is that? Is it dirt that falls off the tape. If that's the case why don't i get the same result when fastforwarding and rewinding?

-- merged --

Like this.
First playback. Several blue screens.
Second playback: A couple of blue screens.
Third playback: No more blue screens.

[timtape]

You describe "better quality" as better than a blue screen.

But once the VCR goes to blue screen we have no idea what's going on or why. Before it went to blue screen what was the picture, the sound like? Were there any warnings of the picture or sound starting to fail? Can you upload some video and audio examples?

[dpalomaki]

Hi8/Video8 tape is not as robust as VHS/S-VHS. It is more prone to dropouts and other issues. That it plays better (e.g., fewer blue screens) after a playback or two implies that the exercise of the tape and cassette results in more even/free tape movement through the transport and over the heads. This does comes with some added risk to the tape if there is a transport issue.

An approach to mitigate this risk is to capture each playback and then discard the the unhappy captures. In some cases if all captures contain problems it may prove that good portions of each capture can be combined to create a best version.

[aramkolt]

Odds are that it isn't really the playback that improves it, probably more the tape being exercised/rewound/retensioned. My guess is that if you did regular speed fast forward or rewind a couple of times that youd' get the same result as playing it, but yeah, there's really no harm in capturing multiple times if you don't like the results, you can recapture until you do.

[Boppo]

timtape, an image is better than a blue screen. I thought I explained the matter quite good. No need for uploading videos. VCR? Read my postings, please. It's a camcorder. Jesus!

[timtape]

I'm trying to help diagnose what might be going on. A camcorder contains a VCR. It makes no difference.

This fast winding before playing is often called "exercising" the tape, but I've never found a good justification for it. Tapes are not human beings. They dont need exercising. And as mentioned it has its risks.

Perhaps your camcorder has failing caps (very common). After using the camcorder for a while, the slow warming up of the internals, including caps and lubricants may be enough to make the caps work a little better and the lubricants to become a little less resistant. This MAY be what is going on here, or part of it.

Can you try another camcorder known to be in top condition to compare?

-- merged --

You may need to tell us more. When it's not a blue screen, what is the picture and sound like? Perfect picture, perfect sound? Or faults in the picture? Faults in the sound? Things that may have led up to the point where it dropped out to blue screen. If so can you describe the faults in words? Better still let the pictures and sound do the talking for you via uploaded samples. That is what I should have asked.

Tim

[Boppo]

I cleaned the heads with a swab. The result was good. Better colors and less disturbances/blue screen etc. Still it seems like Hi8 tapes from 1995 needs two playbacks before the quality is good.

[dpalomaki]

I have encountered a few tapes (both VHS and Hi*) that may present issues when first played after years of sitting. In some cases to the point of not playing beyond a certain point and causing the VCR to stop and eject the tape. In many of those cases a FWD./REW cycle has helped. Environmental conditions (humidity, hear, and poor tape wrap after last play or REW may allow the tape to sort of "stick". Not like glue but be a bit reluctant to spool off freely. This may be aggravated by aging of the tape transport system as well where in it may become weaker.

[Boppo]

These old Hi8 tapes are hard to transfer. A comparison.

First playback: 10 min (out of 90 min total) are OK without blue screen or disturbances. 912 MB.
Second playback: 38 min (out of 90 min total) are OK without blue screen or disturbances.
Third playback: 85 min (out of 90 min total) are OK without blue screen or disturbances. 1,56 GB.
Fourth playback: 90 min (out of 90 min total) are OK without blue screen or disturbances. 1,6 GB.

So I have to do four playbacks to transfer one tape. That's 6 hours not counting the time to rewind. Quite boring.

The parts of the tape that have problems are mostly blue screen or in some cases disturbances like the attached image.
As written I've cleaned the heads but the problem seems to be with the old tapes.

The explaination made by dpalomaki makes sense.

[aramkolt]

I'd love it if after capturing one of those problematic tapes if you could send me one to see if I'm able to reproduce the issue or not. I have something like 10 different Hi8/Digital8 cameras as well as a couple of the Hi8 VCRs and I'm really curious if this issue is reproducible or if it's something going on with your specific setup. If you're willing to send me one of those tapes that you're done with that had the issue, PM me.

[Boppo]

I'm transferring Hi8 tapes from 1993/1994. It works by doing 2 or 3 playbacks.

I had one tape that was a hellish. The first playback wasn't good. When doing the second playback the tape stopped several times giving error C:31:42. I took out the tape and winded it forward a little bit manually, just to get past the ugly parts. Then I put it back in the camcorder and continued.

Most parts of this tape looks black and fine, but a few parts looks nasty but spots (maybe mold) and even some wrinkles. I'm propably a mistake putting a nasty tape back in the camcorder?

P.S aramkolt. I will keep all my tapes as a backup.

[timtape]

The image seems to show foreign matter stuck to the tape. Is this common to all the tapes you've had problems with?

If so that looks like it could be the problem. I wouldnt be playing such tapes until they are checked out thoroughly, and possibly expertly cleaned.

These are Metal type tapes. They are more vulnerable than VHS tapes to permanent damage after water immersion, and the mould that often forms if the water/moisture isnt removed quickly. Even without mould the water can destroy the signal on the affected parts of the tape.

Any tendency for the tape to stick to the next wind as it unspools is dangerous. The tape often breaks with a long, shallow tear which cant be fixed without losing some of the recording at each break. Again I wouldnt play these tapes until the problems are understood and dealt with first.

More close up photos of the tape surface welcome. Also shots through the clear top window for any signs of mould or other foreign matter inside.

[Boppo]

It's only this tape that has such problems.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

I'm propably a mistake putting a nasty tape back in the camcorder?

Most assuredly. Any tape that appears to have foreign material on it (dust, crud, fungus, mold, etc.) should be kept out of a VCR/Camcorder until after it has been cleaned. There are other threads here on cleaning tapes.

[Boppo]

Not the best solution, but I took the best parts I captured from the two playsbacks and put them together to one.

-- merged --

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

Most assuredly. Any tape that appears to have foreign material on it (dust, crud, fungus, mold, etc.) should be kept out of a VCR/Camcorder until after it has been cleaned. There are other threads here on cleaning tapes.

Now I have another problematic tape that gives C:31:42. I do as before and pass those parts by manually wind the tape.
Actually I found no thread here about cleaning Hi8 tapes (only VHS).

-- merged --

Howcome a tapes becomes wrinkled like this?

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boppo

Howcome a tapes becomes wrinkled like this?

Where to start? Here's a few potential mechanical causes:

• Poor condition pinch roller.
• Misadjusted or misaligned pinch roller.
• Misaligned capstan shaft.
• Broken or misadjusted tape guides.
• Excessive take up tension.
• Insufficient take up tension.
• Weak or no tape back tension.
• Failure of the mechanism to wind the tape back fully into the cassette before the cassette ejects.

A good tech checks for and/or repairs all such player faults to prevent tape damage.

[dpalomaki]

Google Sony error code C:31:42. YOU will find a number of hits with suggestions that might work. However, I have no experience with it on any of my Sony gear.

[Boppo]

I transferred my oldest Hi8 tapes. This far it seemed like the older tapes gave the worst quality. Because of this I thought my oldest tapes, from the beginning of 1993, would havr bad quality. On the contrary. They gave really good quality on the first playback and transfer. Maybe because the camcorder was brand new when I filmed those tapes.