DV Firewire capture with Huffyuv?

[Xhumeka]

Hi everyone - first off thanks so much for this great site and all the valuable information it provides.

I have a question regarding video passthrough on a Sony DCR-TRV740 8mm/Hi8 Handycam (with TBC). I have some videos on Betamax that I'd like to capture, and want to do it in the best possible way with my current hardware. From the testing I have performed, the TBC works quite well in passthrough mode so I'd like to use that in conjunction with my Betamax player (EDV-7500) but the problem is very washed out colours when capturing via DV and of course the out-dated dvsd codec. Is it possible to capture via firewire and Virtualdub AND use the huffyuv codec?

The only capture device I have available to me at the moment is the Elgato USB Capture device (i know, i know, by reading these forums you guys call it Elcrapo). It seems to work quite well with VirtualDub, although I can't force the capture to 640x480 but instead must capture at 720x480 and re-size during render with Handbrake.

But when I change my device in Virtualdub from the Elgato to my Sony Camera, the huffyuv codec shows available yet when I try to actually capture, I receive this error:

"Video compressor error: The source image format is not acceptable. (error code -2)"

Is this error simply because it's impossible to capture in huffyuv using DV Firewire? Or should this be possible?

Using VirtualDub with Elgato is OK, but again, I'd really like to use the TBC of the Sony handycam while in pass-through mode if possible.

If anyone is interested, here is a comparison I made to help test my Sony Handicam's TBC capabilities... I compare it directly to my JVC HR-S7500U (with TBC) and it seems quite comparable!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfUz69fztT0

[traal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhumeka

the problem is very washed out colours when capturing via DV

That shouldn't be happening. Maybe the type of PAL recorded on the tape is different from what the VCR or the camera supports.

EDIT: I looked at the video, now I see what you mean, but what looks like washed out colors could just be the fact that the other two captures are more contrasty to a fault (crushed blacks).

I wouldn't have believed that the TBC in the DV camera could improve anything but compared to the Elgato capture (Config #1) it really does.

Config #3 has some tearing at the top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhumeka

Is it possible to capture via firewire and Virtualdub AND use the huffyuv codec?

Even if it were possible, I wouldn't do it on the fly because the CPU load of decoding DV, converting the colorspace from YV12 4:2:0 to YUV 4:2:2 and then encoding HuffYUV could cause dropped frames. Capture with WinDV and then work with the resulting .avi file.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhumeka

"Video compressor error: The source image format is not acceptable. (error code -2)"

Is this error simply because it's impossible to capture in huffyuv using DV Firewire? Or should this be possible?

I'm guessing it's because the colorspace is not compatible.

[Xhumeka]

Quote:

Originally Posted by traal

That shouldn't be happening. Maybe the type of PAL recorded on the tape is different from what the VCR or the camera supports.

Thanks, but I thought it was pretty much fact that DV transfers via firewire is "outdated technology" that shouldn't be used these days.

eg:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

More essentially than resolution, DV is either 4:2:0 PAL or 4:1:1 NTSC, and sacrifices color data. Like DVD, PAL is alternating halved data, while the NTSC is quartered. That's the primary reason that DV for NTSC looks so terrible, when used as a VHS conversion format, and throws out 50% of the color data on the tape (which was already not great to begin with).

[latreche34]

Your workflow with JVC VCR and Elgato using Vdub looks the best among the three so just stick to that. Though your comparison doesn't make any sense, You should be comparing with the same VCR to see which is better DV route or Elgato. It's like comparing a knife and a duffle bag. But we already know DV workflow has drawbacks due to it's color compression.

[traal]

That's correct, DV shouldn't be used for capture because it's lossy and supports less color than VHS/Betamax.

[Xhumeka]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Your workflow with JVC VCR and Elgato using Vdub looks the best among the three so just stick to that. Though your comparison doesn't make any sense, You should be comparing with the same VCR to see which is better DV route or Elgato. It's like comparing a knife and a duffle bag. But we already know DV workflow has drawbacks due to it's color compression.

The comparison I was originally making was only to see if the TBC on the sony handycam was worth the effort, and how it compared to JVC's. For that I wanted to use a crappy VCR so the handycam had to work its hardest.

But the only way that I'm aware of (other than first recording to a Hi8 tape, THEN playback via s-video) to introduce the handycam into my Betamax tape conversion workflow would be to use DV transfer; my camera doesn't have separate output jacks for video passthrough, it can only do it through firewire (and thus forces the video to be encoded as DV).

I guess I'll just have to spend more money if I want decent results for my Betamax transfers... was really hoping to use this camera's TBC but I guess if I want that, I'm forced to use DV.

[latreche34]

Yes, you only take advantage of the internal TBC of the camcorder if you output DV, if the camcorder has analog outputs the internal TBC will be bypassed, It's by design. Back in the day analog outputs meant to be hooked up to a TV that is already equipped with signal stabilization so no TBC needed, but recording analog signal to a DV tape or computer is passed through a form of signal stabilization, I don't know what to call it to be honest, it is a mixed line and frame using a memory buffer.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhumeka

passthrough on a Sony DCR-TRV740 8mm/Hi8 Handycam (with TBC).

Hi8 = no passthrough
Digital8 = passthrough
DCR-TRV740 = Digital8

Quote:

but the problem is very washed out colours when capturing via DV

DV = crappy colors, 4:1:1, compressed crap (in terms of color retention, and added blocks)

Quote:

Is it possible to capture via firewire and Virtualdub AND use the huffyuv codec?

No. Get a quality analog USB capture card. Do note that lack of frame TBC may still pose issues. DV "ignores" timing errors, and just bakes it in (aka, most crappy quality issues).

Quote:

although I can't force the capture to 640x480

640 = not compliant
720 = compliant

Quote:

re-size during render with Handbrake.

Handbrake massively sucks when dealing with captured video. It was made for converting DVDs. Better = Hybrid. Use it. Quality QTGMC deinterlace, etc.

Quote:

But when I change my device in Virtualdub from the Elgato to my Sony Camera, the huffyuv codec shows available yet when I try to actually capture, I receive this error:
"Video compressor error: The source image format is not acceptable. (error code -2)"
Is this error simply because it's impossible to capture in huffyuv using DV Firewire? Or should this be possible?

Correct, not possible.

Quote:

Using VirtualDub with Elgato is OK, but again, I'd really like to use the TBC of the Sony handycam while in pass-through mode if possible.

Not possible. Video is hard converted to DV. Not really a passthrough, as in bypass, but passthrough as in encode/filters applied before output.

Quote:

If anyone is interested, here is a comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfUz69fztT0

Youtube screws stuff up, not valid for quality comparisons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhumeka

Thanks, but I thought it was pretty much fact that DV transfers via firewire is "outdated technology" that shouldn't be used these days.

DV is vastly outdated, 1990s tech, but the camera is DV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhumeka

I guess I'll just have to spend more money if I want decent results

That's how all of us got here. Trying things, seeing crap results, seeking better. Some of us just started way earlier. I went down this rabbit hold in the 1990s. Now I teach others, and for decades. And my hobby turned pro, just gradual evolution. But tools are essentially the same, for analog ingest of consumer formats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

, I don't know what to call it to be honest, it is a mixed line and frame using a memory buffer.

Non-TBC frame sync, at most.
Generally weaker line TBC, just good enough to handle the Video8/Hi8 flutter.