vhs-decode setup? A Basic Guide

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feedbucket

Oversharpening seems to be a trend in the Decode samples I've seen. Wonder if it's systematic or if people are choosing to render that way.

It's too widespread, almost 100% of what I've seen to date.

I've seen just one sample where the image had more "detail" (sort of, but not really) due to lack of in-deck processing, where bad processing was covering said detail. The irony there is the in-deck processing had more ringing/halo. Supposedly. Were those samples mixed up?! But even if legit, not a mix-up, it's appearing to be an outlier. It was also on what's essentially a test pattern (actually an interstitial), not actual footage. The source (the person) is also dubious, unfortunately, so I think the tests were faked (not s-video as claimed, not JVC/Panasonic as claimed) to make it seem better than it really is. Or again, mixed up.

I have some extremely rare tapes (only a handful exist, period), already captured multiple times, but I want to see if vhs-decode could extract a tiny % more (or less). And due to this, my tests cannot be faked. I want the best possible, even if it means taking clips from multiple captures to assemble the digital file. I will take any win, no matter how small -- and any Original Trilogy or Superman Homepage member (die-hard hobbyists) will understand. But I'm seriously doubting that will happen. And when I run my full tapes, it won't be thrift store crap VCRs, but Panasonic AG-1970/80 and NV-HS1000.

[latreche34]

If you watch VHS-Decode samples on youtube you'll notice most of them if not all have a common issue, edge ringing and lack of dynamic, Not sure if this is VCR related, RF pickup related or decode related, I posted samples of LP tapes recorded at home with low end VCRs using the normal capturing process and I though they sucked, but looking at this, man my LP captures look IMAX compared to that.

[timtape]

I suspect the only way we can truly know if vhs -decode or any other decoding can reliably improve the picture quality is for the relevent people to cooperate, sharing their knowledge and resources in a joint project to discover the truth of the matter.

One critical aspect is using the same reference tape, in the same condition, and played back on the same optimal reference deck, or effectively the same, also in the same condition and state of adjustment.

[latreche34]

Lollo tried to start that over at videohelp by moving the same tape around but the VHS-decode guy declined to participate. They always make the argument that we should be comparing a low end VCR connected to an easycap via composite with no TBC with the VHS-decode method. They don't like to compare a high end S-VHS VCR with line TBC and a good quality capture device with the VHS-decode method using the same VCR, I bet the difference will be slim to none.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Lollo tried to start that over at videohelp by moving the same tape around but the VHS-decode guy declined to participate. They always make the argument that we should be comparing a low end VCR connected to an easycap via composite with no TBC with the VHS-decode method. They don't like to compare a high end S-VHS VCR with line TBC and a good quality capture device with the VHS-decode method using the same VCR, I bet the difference will be slim to none.

I was in process of doing this, but then my AG-1970 failed. No power. And no time or funds to fix it. I was wanting to pit one of the best S-VHS decks for vhs-decode, against one of the best S-VHS decks for a standard quality workflow. Now I'll have to try a generic deck, but that's such a quagmire.

I'm not sacrificing one of my refurb'd AG-1980 decks for this nonsense.

What most people fail to understand is that PAL and NTSC are very different. Not just the tapes, but the VCRs, and the signal itself. European PAL tends to be easier to work with, which is where the project is based. And it's why NTSC largely fails.

I have a NV-HS1000 now, which I'll pit against the best JVC S-VHS setup. But it's just not a priority. I can already surmise an educate guess at the outcome. But like a lot of political nuts, even with clear evidence, these vhs-decode guys will move goalposts, cry, "fake news", whatever.

The "best" decks for vhs-decode are actually pretty craptastic compared to the decks we all use here. It's not even about the TBC, but the transports in those units largely suck, the DOC may not exist, etc.

Overall, is it better than a thrift store VCR, connected via composite directly to an Easycap?
Duh.

But is it better than the recommended S-VHS > TBC > ATI/Pinnacle type capture card?
No.

Back half of the year, I'll try again, once my wrist heals.

[i4004]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If you watch VHS-Decode samples on youtube you'll notice most of them if not all have a common issue, edge ringing and lack of dynamic, Not sure if this is VCR related, RF pickup related or decode related, I posted samples of LP tapes recorded at home with low end VCRs using the normal capturing process and I though they sucked, but looking at this, man my LP captures look IMAX compared to that.

the latter link ("Commercials - Saturday Morning Cartoons 1987 - VHS-Decode Set F") was:
"VHS-Decode (Video) - Audacity (Audio) - TBC-Video-Decode - Final Cut Pro (Muxing, denoise filter). I didn't bother with Topaz Video AI for this set as it didn't really help."
i bolded the important part.

jitterbug has some examples on his "video dump" yt channel, i believe.
should be here:
https://www.youtube.com/@videodumpchannel

how does that look?
pretty good. on the "don't touch too much" side of things.
not even cnr() was applied, obviously.
vcr? i believe some panasonic from the age they alrady started to mess it up big time, cheap mechanics, integrated electronics. i believe i have same chassis panasonic decks, i'll need to re-check that.
if you use such decks via their scart (composite) connections, it's utter crap.

l.s.:

Quote:

Overall, is it better than a thrift store VCR, connected via composite directly to an Easycap?
Duh.

funny thing you mention that, as i was just thinking about particular scene from particular yt video. i'll enclose screenshot later as i'm writing this from old xp laptop. old xp laptops don't do yt.

Quote:

But is it better than the recommended S-VHS > TBC > ATI/Pinnacle type capture card?
No.

had rather bad results from ati all-in-wonder somewhere in the beginning of this century.
pal, composite.
blurry, chroma bleeding the edges of everything...almost as ati never learned how to decode PAL.
i dunno if that's the cards you're mentioning above?
if so, not a good idea in europeland.
maybe they work ok when they don't have to separate luma and chroma, ie s-video?

-- merged --

edit1/ checked it (video dump's yt channel vcr):

nv hd630 2024-05-27_161304.png

yeap, cheap.
such machines are good for quick rewind and taking a quick look what's on the tape, is it worth digitizing or not. they're not good enough for the job itself.
but it proves my point they were putting decent heads on cheap electronics. that's why vhs-decode improves it a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnTWlK6orz8
that's pretty good (good content too). obviosuly some antenna ghosting(could be helped a bit with some avisynth filers), but the detail level is quite good.

recently got slightly older panasonic, with much better mechanism....that's still not as good as sony slv-e730, but better than new panasonic (attached archive of stills comparison...such, relatively small, differences are preserved in encoded files, ie u see them in mjpeg source, you see them in mpeg2 final encoding....)

i added something else to final cut pro doing denoise comment above:

the latter link ("Commercials - Saturday Morning Cartoons 1987 - VHS-Decode Set F") was:
"VHS-Decode (Video) - Audacity (Audio) - TBC-Video-Decode - Final Cut Pro (Muxing, denoise filter). I didn't bother with Topaz Video AI for this set as it didn't really help."
[i bolded the important part. NR in nle is simillar to deinterlacing in nle, nles were not ment to process video, but to "create"...heh...i still remember using zoom in premiere 5...then using zoom as vdub filter, with bicubic resizing, no less! ]

edit2/ ("i'll enclose screenshot later")

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i mean, you'd have to be blind not to see the difference.

on pc side of things it's not easycap, but it's probably not much better

2kliks vhs 2024-05-27_153847.jpg

(it's a usb stick.... at 1'05'' he mentions 25gb file per tape: that would be about 2.4MB/s for 180 tape, ie about 19mbit/s...and that's not huffyuv or mjpeg on 720x576 pal, they're bigger, so it can only be mpeg2....and yeah, at about 2'46'' briefly we see this:

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his input is "19.mpg" file, so it's high bitrate mpeg2.)

and some are using 'composite to hdmi' converters to cap:

2kliks hardware 2024-05-27_154023.jpg

while i'm wondering what sort of deinterlacing (converting laced to progressive hd resolutions is what that device does) can such device have...silly me!
for some reason or another that reminds me of composite inputs of my (otherwise quite decent) sony lcd tv. it's like they've put the cheapest digitizing chip they could find on that input.

[BartoloniDavy]

Sorry boring you , i can't understand if i need 2 Conexant cards to aquire PAL signals (1 of Video and 1 for audio? ) and why for NTSC it's necessary only one card?

[jandsd]

All those on here reading lordsmurf posts.....please read between the lines. This is supposed to be a forum to discuss ideas, not belittle and condescend others. Reading between the lines on lordsmurf's posts will produce some good information, but there is a lot of bs you have to get through. Others in this forum are on the right track. Keep going and keep the project alive. Constantly putting out ones own qualifications does not make one an expert. An expert yesterday does not make an expert today. Disagreements are fine. Insults are another. My only advise.....lordsmurf......go back to school. Take it from someone much more experienced (judging by your posts). Relearn some old concepts and discover some new ones. Otherwise you'll be left with your passive aggressive posts and others to argue with you for the rest of your days.

Just as fast as I came in, I'm out. Bye

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

This is supposed to be a forum to discuss ideas, not belittle and condescend others.
Disagreements are fine. Insults are another. My only advise.....lordsmurf......go back to school.

Irony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jandsd

All those on here reading lordsmurf posts.....please read between the lines.
Reading between the lines on lordsmurf's posts will produce some good information, but there is a lot of bs you have to get through.

There's no "read between the lines". I don't write in riddles, and am very clear with my posts.

If somebody doesn't understand something, then all they need to do is ask for clarification, and I'll give it.

When I type, I do so (or attempt to do so) without any need to interpret. I find fluffy/coddling language completely worthless. So, for example, I will describe something as "crap", not a wimpy/mealy-mouthed "it's not what everybody would want" (or some such watered down nothing statement). Also emphasis on "coddling", because some people let their feelings get in the way of objectivity, science, facts, observation. I'm here to help with video -- not worry about feelings. So "You did it wrong.", not "Aw, poor baby, I know you just tried and tried your best and hardest, but that mean ol' video just didn't work did it?".

Quote:

Others in this forum are on the right track. Keep going and keep the project alive.

"Keep the project" alive is a desperate statements, and exactly what I've warned about from day 1. Open-source projects have a way of fading away to nothing. I cannot even recall all of the homebrew video hardware and software that has faded into obscurity/oblivion over the decades.

Life happens for those involved, especially projects by young 20-somethings, as this one is. The "documentarian", Harry Munday aka TheRealHarrypm, only just turned 22 years old. Although, in actuality, this isn't really Harry's project at all, but rather the great work of oyvindln aka oln aka hodgey. Harry is just a "clout chaser", taking credit of the work of others. I respect Øyvind, we've had many great conversations over the years, even before he created vhs-decode. He was a video newbie when we met back in 2017, and he soaked up knowledge like a sponge. Unlike Harry, Øyvind doesn't make false and hyperbolic statements. He openly admits the project has many issues, and is not a final product. So when the clout-chasing self-proclaimed "documentarian" says one thing, and the actual developer says another -- who should you believe? Hmm?

I just saw Øyvind's LinkedIn status changed to "trying to figure out my health", so I hope he's okay. (ie, real life happens)

If you want to fully use vhs-decode, to capture from start to finish, fine. But if you capture with thoughts of "finishing it later" (and "the software will get better later"), you may be screwed. That has happened so many times over the years, in various fields/hobbies. There are many, many variables at play here. For example, some tapes are "one and done" (oxide shedding, etc), and you can blow your chance to get a quality conversion from it, by using extant gear and tried-and-true quality methods. If content matters, then vhs-decode should always be a 2nd method, never the 1st.

Quote:

Constantly putting out ones own qualifications does not make one an expert. An expert yesterday does not make an expert today.

It does when the subject matter doesn't change, which is the case with VHS. We're talking about a video format that is almost 50 years old now (since 1976) -- and I've dealt with it seriously for 30+ of those years, and I have VHS tapes from 1978.

The vhs-decode project is nothing "new", but rather a project that reuses old methodology (FM extraction), using old VCRs, from old taps. It's fork of a method used for Laserdisc, which itself is a fork of prior methods used for other magnetic media (floppy discs, etc), dating all the way back to the 1990s (maybe earlier?)

Quote:

Just as fast as I came in, I'm out. Bye

Stay, have discussion.

... but not with the trollish/sniping style of Twitter/X/Reddit/Youtube posting. This site isn't for drive-by "social media" comments, but rather quality discussion. I really do seem to live rent-free in the heads of some vhs-decode fans. I rarely give this project any thought. You do you. I'm doing me. You and me can certainly have civil discourse, if needed or wanted. All of this sniping is ridiculous.

vhs-decode is not a forbidden topic. What's forbidden is the attitude, and the false claims (ie, "better than JVC/Panasonic TBCs", etc) that mislead video newbies.

[nicholasserra]

Really trying to get to the point where I can do a side by side comparison of AG1980 > Datavideo TBC >+ ATI 600 versus AG1980 > Domesday Duplicator. But the rabbit hole keeps growing.

I really like the project. The people are extremely helpful. The docs are ROBUST (if confusing). But the limiting factor is that i'm no hardware expert. The software side of things is fine as I write software and spend my day with cli tools anyway.

But i'm not a hardware person, and at this moment it seems that to get my vhs-decode captures closer to something usable I'm now going to need to be ordering and assembling an amplifier pcb, learn how all those components work, learn how to use oscilloscopes, brush up on my soldering, and take an electronics class lol.

The limit here is me.

So i'll keep pushing forward because I love open source projects, the idea is awesome, and they've done so much work so far to get to this point.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicholasserra

Really trying to get to the point where I can do a side by side comparison of AG1980 > Datavideo TBC >+ ATI 600 versus AG1980 > Domesday Duplicator. But the rabbit hole keeps growing.

I really like the project. The people are extremely helpful. The docs are ROBUST (if confusing). But the limiting factor is that i'm no hardware expert. The software side of things is fine as I write software and spend my day with cli tools anyway.

But i'm not a hardware person, and at this moment it seems that to get my vhs-decode captures closer to something usable I'm now going to need to be ordering and assembling an amplifier pcb, learn how all those components work, learn how to use oscilloscopes, brush up on my soldering, and take an electronics class lol.

The limit here is me.

So i'll keep pushing forward because I love open source projects, the idea is awesome, and they've done so much work so far to get to this point.

I'd actually say the limiting factor is before you. Still the hardware, but because of the hardware itself.

We've gotten to a time where some VCRs are literally antiques now. Some are legacy -- ie, still in demand, still used, and will be for years to come. And some are just plain old garbage.

The current state of hardware is not good at all. I've been refurb'ing gear (for others) now for 7 years, and I've witness saddening ugly declines in the overall gear market. I don't mean "market" as in buy/sell, but rather the extant gear supply.

Some of the project participants are so young that they never saw VCRs "back in the day" (last century), or even when still properly working used gear in the 2010s. Or Funai combo junk at best. So you get some pretty twisted ideas of how hardware works, or should work.

I've long stated that hardware weakness is a project weakness, for probably 5 years now. The "duct tape and chicken wire" approach to this will not work to any scale. You can write endless documents, because you have endless variables (hardware in endless conditions).

The model rocket approach, the highly variable output approach, doesn't appeal to anybody at the high-end, nor at the low end. It takes excess time, has hidden costs (or rather lied-about costs by certain overly-vocal cheapskates in the community), and the output isn't really any better but also easily worse.

Honestly, the projects seems to mostly appeals to those who are broke, and with excess time available in their daily lives, given the gear choices (thrift store VCRs), and always brushing off the time it requires for a single tape to be processed. So unemployed, 20s, single, etc, some combination therein. Using Reddit and Discord backs that up, as that is it's demographic. Not exactly representative of the demographic needing/wanting videos to be converted.

You wanted to try it, as a dedicated video hobbyists, but it has lots of barriers to get working. I was actually following your progress with it, but thought this may happen. I was rooting for you!

As I had mentioned elsewhere, I want to get it setup myself, to see how it can handle some rare tapes (that I've already capture multiple times). But my AG-1970 crapped out, and I'm not willing to sacrifice an AG-1980 for it. The project rejects too many quality VCRs (namely JVCs), so that leaves random junk. When I get the time, I can see how it performs with a low-end VHS VCR. But I'm not expecting much. I probably have the hardware skills (sans soldering, thanks MS tremor), the CLI/scripting skills.

My issue is time. I need to spend it with family, not tearing apart a VCR "for funsies" while life passes me by. This isn't something that can be a shared experience, like cooking, or gardening/yardwork, or board games, or watching a baseball game. No, it'll be just me, alone, tinkering with e-waste. This is work. I think you'll find that "time is valuable" attitude pretty common with anybody non-single and starting at least in their early 30s. This is why turnkey setups matter (ie, my workflows), or something that can be bought from Amazon. And it must have low time requirements, not triple processing files, not needing gamer computers chock full of HDDs, etc.

It's a shame some of us don't live closer to one another, as "two heads are better than one", and I'm sure 2-3 of us could crank out a few setups for testing. If only this had existed 20 years ago, when I was healthier, when it was easier to travel. (I actually do know people semi-close, including some old-school tape hobbyists from the 90s. But none of them have any interest in the project, because of the time, ROI, and extra steps needed. I've asked, I've suggested, but nope, not happening.)

I will agree, the project devs have come a long way, and it is interesting. But it's currently just not enough to be widely adopted, with it's variable results, without repeatable results.

As far as friendly ... yeah, not as much. Some of the project cultists are extremely immature. I've seen it, others have seen it. Beyond dealing with the hardware issues, a lot of folks also don't want to have to deal with a young know-it-all horse's ass in a vulgar kiddie community. With some of these people, you have to "walk on eggshells" around them, because they turn into Katy Ka-Boom. You can't have good constructive conversation that way. Not just how great it is, but what's wrong. The good, and the bad, and the ugly. I was talking to somebody recently (on the phone), and the mere mention of Reddit turned him off immediately.

So that's where we are with it.

I do enjoy reading about your progress here, keep us up to speed on your adventures. But as I know, as you're seeing, it's not easy and straight-forward as claimed. However, even when finished, I think you'll be disappointed, as you have some of the best hardware already, for a quality workflow.

BTW, is your TBC-6000 free of the interlace error? All of my TBC-3000 units are failed, need attention. The board at the heart of the 6000 is the same, so keep watch on it.

[nicholasserra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Honestly, the projects seems to mostly appeals to those who are broke, and with excess time available in their daily lives, given the gear choices (thrift store VCRs), and always brushing off the time it requires for a single tape to be processed. So unemployed, 20s, single, etc, some combination therein. Using Reddit and Discord backs that up, as that is it's demographic. Not exactly representative of the demographic needing/wanting videos to be converted.

Definitely seems like it should save costs on the expensive hardware, but at the same time the duplicator hardware wasn't exactly cheap either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

You wanted to try it, as a dedicated video hobbyists, but it has lots of barriers to get working. I was actually following your progress with it, but thought this may happen. I was rooting for you!

Thanks! Still gonna try. I still really like the concept and execution so far. I think I might ask those folks what the "most recommended" setup is in their mind, and just go that route. Whatever is gonna get me working with the least amount custom hardware execution. Then at least I can get some comparisons going.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

BTW, is your TBC-6000 free of the interlace error? All of my TBC-3000 units are failed, need attention. The board at the heart of the 6000 is the same, so keep watch on it.

My 6000 is sitting in a box for the last year. The only issue with it was it would skew the image to the right a few pixels. Right shift. Wasn't a huge deal.

Only use the 7000 right now.

[lordsmurf]

The reality is that everything shifts, and you'll observe this with vhs-decode as well. It's because VHS is demodulated, and is non-perfection analog.

The 6000 and 7000 are not too different, so observe it as well. More and more gear just needs a total recondition, if not outright repair or refurb. The vhs-decode project does nothing for any of that hardware status quo, which is why some cultists calling it 'the way of the future" is amusing, as it still requires decades-old commodity hardware.

I took all of my NTSC gear out of service last year, and proceed to refurb/maintenance on each one. Due to my wrist issue, I never finish the PALed, several decks are in a pile in the corner. I believe you were doing the same, right? I remember you posted about your setup a while back.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicholasserra

I really like the project. The people are extremely helpful. The docs are ROBUST (if confusing). But the limiting factor is that i'm no hardware expert. The software side of things is fine as I write software and spend my day with cli tools anyway.

But i'm not a hardware person, and at this moment it seems that to get my vhs-decode captures closer to something usable I'm now going to need to be ordering and assembling an amplifier pcb, learn how all those components work, learn how to use oscilloscopes, brush up on my soldering, and take an electronics class lol.

If you must dive in, wait a little bit longer and get the MISRC hardware, They are simplifying it as they go, I think the 2nd or 3rd version is in the works as shown in the attached picture, now it includes 2 line level stereo channels audio inputs and two RF inputs, say video and HiFi Stereo:

[nicholasserra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I took all of my NTSC gear out of service last year, and proceed to refurb/maintenance on each one. Due to my wrist issue, I never finish the PALed, several decks are in a pile in the corner. I believe you were doing the same, right? I remember you posted about your setup a while back.

Eh, more like i'm just hoarding gear. Piles of AG1980s for parts, a million miniDV decks, etc etc. My main stuff is all refurb or NOS so all working fine. Slowly diving into minor repairs and recaps, but far from knowledgeable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If you must dive in, wait a little bit longer and get the MISRC hardware, They are simplifying it as they go, I think the 2nd or 3rd version is in the works as shown in the attached picture, now it includes 2 line level stereo channels audio inputs and two RF inputs, say video and HiFi Stereo:

Nice, will keep an eye out! I might pick up one of those CX cards or whatever they're using now too. It's feeling like the AG1980 just isn't an ideal deck to be doing this testing on. Gonna try to tap my umatic deck too and see how that looks.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicholasserra

Nice, will keep an eye out!

Just realize it's only addressing the video+audio capture problem. At least that's their goal, but problems are still likely, as it is just a hobby project here. As latreche34 mentions, I'd wait for several revisions.

None of the other hardware aspects are changed.
- not dismantling VCRs
- not finding (Where's Waldo?) the tap points
- not soldering
- etc, none of it

I detest how some of the cultist pretend this is "easy" in any way. It's not. Even building model rockets (what I often compare this project to) is not easy. Sure, you can get a "kit", and bluster your way to making "something". But it's easier to make a rocket that blows up on the ground, or a vhs-decode that barfs out "potato quality" videos. Quality end results vary highly, and there's a ceiling to it (ie, you won't make a rocket that goes to space, or a pristine HD video). The devil is in the details.

Quote:

It's feeling like the AG1980 just isn't an ideal deck to be doing this testing on.

And that's a shame, too.

I see this as a failing of the project, and not a fault of the best quality decks. Rather than admit to these failings, and try to address them, the cultists cover it up with misinformation. For example, this crap nugget from their Github:

Quote:

VHS-Decode beats out Panasonics & JVC's prosumer and professional internal TBC cards such as the ones found inside the NV-HS950B, AG-1980P, AG-7650, and well-known external TBCs like the Data Video TBC-1000/TBC-3000 and the FORA FA-310P - 2021

... which I'm sure you know is bunk.

Quote:

Gonna try to tap my umatic deck too and see how that looks.

Honestly, for them to reinvent the VHS wheel was always pretty useless. We have a near-perfect method to transfer VHS already. vhs-decode was a solution to problem that did not exist.

But all the other non-VHS (and non-8mm aka Video8/Hi8) formats are where the project could have shined. We need solid method to transfer Betamax/Betacord, U-matic, and others. U-matic is a shitshow of obsolete hardware prone to dropouts and disfunction, and Beta never had TBCs or any real s-video. And those are just the popular formats.

But no, we're mostly left with a project that screws around with old VCRs from thrift stores, or dabbling in 8mm tapes. So the project was never really about archiving, and it is entirely about trying to not buy the "expensive" (not really) tools to transfer VHS/8mm.

And I don't mean "supported" (might work sorta-kinda maybe), but very vetted high-functioning reliable, which it isn't whatsoever.

It's a missed opportunity. Somebody will eventually tackle this, hopefully with a fork. (And the cultists will try to take credit for it, as they already do by claiming Øyvind's work as their own.)

What a shame. And what a sham. I've talked to many people over the years, and they feel the same. Some even wanted to get involved (for the non-VHS/8mm), but cultist attitudes chased them away. The project needs to "separate chaff from wheat".