High frequency noise from JVC SR-V101US audio output?

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Spectrum stills are not nearly as good as seeing them as a video clip in real time with the synchronised audio. I found out Win 10 allows mp4 video recording of what's on the PC screen. Here's an example. It's the linear audio of a VHS tape recorded off TV in '93.
.

Sounds like a young(er) Roger Allam, but I'm a long way from certain if it is. If it is I met him once at a radio play recording, a decent chap by all accounts.

Azimuthal misalignment was one of the many reasons audio cassettes ended up with a somewhat unfair reputation, this is a great demonstration of it, and a useful clip.

I do need to dig out some of the work we did with videotape audio and post bits on here, we spent about 18 months working on various strategies for it, the project eventually came to nothing and contains lots of tedious bits - but I'll have a look in the office when I get a moment and see if there's anything useful that could be shared. The samples I think are on CD but I'm sure I could rip them for general circulation or for use in diagnostic matters.

[Teefer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

This still hasn't been addressed:
Why not record quality video with JVC, quality audio with __. Re-merge captures.

Every time I read a response from you, I scratch my head and ask why a seller that runs an entire forum would behave such a way unless they were interested in sullying their reputation? Make no mistake - no one reading this thread could ever conclude that there's anything more I could have, or should have done to address this issue. It is certainly you that should have spent less time selling more gear over the last few months, and more time helping a customer who already purchased from you.

Why are you more concerned with addressing my intended workflow than the obvious noise issue with the linear audio circuit in the deck you sold me, the lack of satisfaction I have with its performance, the many months I've waited for a solution from you (the seller), and the time spent by other users trying to resolve an issue that is really yours to resolve? You're the one that sold the unit - I'm helping you out of good faith. In my experience, sellers take back goods that do not perform satisfactorily for their customers -- especially when the resources are going up in demand and the seller can repair it, or resell with full disclosure to another customer. I would have even paid for return shipping to help share the burden of you needing to resell it. That's very reasonable, and I always offer to do this when I return items.

I will not incorporate two decks into my workflow. I just need one deck without an extremely noisy linear audio circuit. If it means I need to buy a deck with slightly worse video quality to achieve this, that's fine. I guarantee they exist, and I'm not concerned about the price. This is up to me to decide.

If you want me to resell this deck on your behalf -- fine -- I can. I'll do it because one day I'll probably find myself in a health situation too.. but just literally ask your customer for the physical help next time, and save the months of struggle, back and forth communication, and pretending that you're doing them a favor by doing the bare minimum of responding to their existence.

If anyone deserves credit in this situation, it's the forum members that have donated hours of their time to helping (something I sincerely appreciate).

And please -- no more talking about the particular technical details -- proof by verbosity will not work here and it's starting to reveal your actual intentions. This is no longer a troubleshooting thread -- this is a thread where I explain how you've failed to meet a minimum standard as a seller and your posts are now serving as evidence to support my claim. You've done nearly nothing to help -- you've put up barriers and actually posted to 'vent' rather than post to actually solve a problem for your customer.

I've provided enough samples in this post to convince any thinking brain with ears that there is an issue. Have you listened to the sample in Post #19? I'm starting to wonder if you've even read through this entire thread before responding..? I have an entire section in a post about the items I've done to troubleshoot, none of which changed the noise issue.

How much longer are we going to spin our wheels here? It's clear to me that customer satisfaction isn't your priority and that defending some strange idealistic view of VHS predicated on the education of perceived laymen is more important than addressing the issue for your customers in a pragmatic manner. We're on thread page three since October 9th and I still have an unsatisfactory deck you sold me on my bench. This is evidence enough for me to understand what your priorities are.

Also - I've archived this thread, should it happen to disappear.

[lordsmurf]

I'm not a store, I'm a person. I'm not going to just do whatever you want. If you want sycophants ("customer service"), use Amazon. I'm not going to be cowed into submission because you're being obtuse.

FACTS:
- linear audio is not common
- linear audio is ancient, and HiFi (ie most all 90s-00s gear) is backwards compatible with it
- linear audio doesn't work great in most post-80s VCRs, including JVCs
- linear audio really didn't sound all that great in 80s VCRs either!
- linear audio tends to work better in Panasonics, or rebadges
- linear audio is often a situation that requires double capturing, when highest possible quality is sought (ie, usually for musical reasons, not random camcorder footage)

Could you have do anything more to avoid this? Probably not.
Could I have? Also not.
But we're here, and we're trying to resolve it. But resolution cannot happen when you constantly ignore questions and make demands.

In a recent email, I even asked outright if you really want a refund, and laid out some more facts so you can ponder the workflow, make an educated choice. But no direct answer, some wishy-washy responses. I'm a no-BS person, and don't have patience to pull responses out of people.

Anyway, more troubleshooting here...

Looking back at your WAV file from post#19 (which I had missed until recent days), your capture gain is too high. That exact card sometimes has audio controls, sometimes not, depending on OS and driver versions. When not, it requires a registry audio hack to lower values to 50%, and not max at 100%. Same audio hack as the ATI 600 USB and SVID2USB2. That alone is creating excess noises.

Your cabling may also be causing this.

Power can still be in play. UPS is not a cure-all to bad power. As mentioned, on a non-video main system, I get power related issues, and have to use ground loop isolators. Many are cheap Chinese crap, and don't work as promised. But the Mpow brand does well. It would require a RCA>mini>RCA step, not idea, but worth trying.

Again, try to audio modes in the menu: MONO, HIFI, R, L. The HIFI mode on linear audio will make excess hiss and noise, the MONO mode generally muffles some %. Did you try any of this yet?

Next..

Had this been a different time, I could have swapped out a VCR, done even more testing, etc. I would have liked for you to capture a tape there, then send it to me, so I could multi-test it on at least a dozen different models of JVCs, and quite a few non-JVCs. But right now, I'm having to step back from VCRs. If I don't step back, I'm going to regret it later.

- While I've always been open to deck swap, I don't think I have anything that will work here. You could try my 7800, but it's going to be a costly swap for you (shipping Canada<>USA), and may yield no change. You really need a refurb'd AG-1980, which will also cost you. I agree, double capturing 300 tapes is not very appealing.
- While I've always been open to deck refund, it makes more sense to ship directly to a new buyer, and in fact simply connect buyer to seller rather than be a middleman.

Sadly, I don't have much confidence that you'll read anything written here, just more emails and posts with conflicting info. And I can't keep wasting my time on this. Make a decision.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Looking back at your WAV file from post#19, your capture gain is too high. That exact card sometimes has audio controls, sometimes not, depending on OS and driver versions. When not, it requires a registry audio hack to lower values to 50%, and not max at 100%. Same audio hack as the ATI 600 USB and SVID2USB2. That alone is creating excess noises..

That's interesting.

What do you determine as 'too high' out of interest? Looking at the file it doesn't clip and it appears everything in this single clip neatly aligns to the ITU BS 1770 recommendations (it's been a while since I had to remind myself of that!), erring slightly conservatively. This may be what the 100% refers to in the card settings? Obviously this is a short clip, and it could be entirely coincidental and still ultimately nothing more than an interesting curiosity (insert your own definition of interesting )

Of course, the file could have been post-processed etc too.

Now, that doesn't mean they are the right values to use for VHS transfer, but what appears to be happening here. If these values are found to generate noise then changing them would certainly be a small and easily tested thing.

What peak/RMS do you recommend for VHS audio transfer?

[lordsmurf]

This is where experience comes in. Both with the hardware in use, and having worked with audio captures for 30 years now.

When the input gain is too high, it exaggerates the noise floor (hiss, buzz, etc). The extant audio also has a loudness and distortion quality to it, which I hear here.

In terms of values, I forget the numbers, I'd have to look. Everything is GUI based, and has been for 20 years now. Audio captures must be in the 50-66% range (half to just over half), usually 55-60%. You tweak it per capture. Anything under captures too low, the noise floor blends with audio. Anything too high distorts, and again blends.

I just dropped a file in Sound Forge. It has 50% to -50% as the range, or -6 db. Everything should be within that range. The sample WAV from this thread touches into 97%+ aka -1 db and then clips hard. The base noise floor isn't a thin line, but a thick lines, gain too high from capture.

Stuff like ITU is theory blah blah. That's great and all, but a lot of that BS means nothing in practical application. Video is rife with theory that says XYZ but reality is ABC. When they align, great. When not, don't care. I want results, not to pass a book test. ITU is something for hardware engineers to worship and study and implement -- and yet, many don't, leading to users like me to also ignore the theory to get results from the hardware.

I don't think the audio was processed for the WAV sample. Not sure, but doubt it.

When the audio gain is within proper capture levels, it doesn't take much effort to raise the good audio, and further suppress the bad/noise.

This is the sort of thing that really differentiates pro capturing from amateur capturing, much like TBCs vs. no TBCs.

I probably need to dedicate a few guides to audio capture.

[latreche34]

For analog captures anywhere from -10db to -4db I found it acceptable, Getting close to 0dB is risky for analog sources you never know when you get that spike.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

For analog captures anywhere from -10db to -4db I found it acceptable, Getting close to 0dB is risky for analog sources you never know when you get that spike.

It's not even about spikes. As mentioned, the WAV sample from this thread has a loudness/distortion quality to it. And the noise floor is raised. I agree, the noise in that WAV is unacceptable, but it's the capture card gain that's doing it.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

When the input gain is too high, it exaggerates the noise floor (hiss, buzz, etc).

Not primarily. The first sign of too high A/D converter input gain is clipping distortion. I dont hear any clipping distortion here. Yes it's sometimes very close to clipping (within 1 db) but both by ear and by meter, it doesnt appear to clip. As an example file it is perfectly acceptable, and demonstrates what it set out to demonstrate: the HF singing noise coming probably from the VCR. Even so I would have captured with lower gain to avoid the possibility of clipping somewhere in the entire recording. But perhaps the OP did capture at a lower level and then "peak normalised", a very handy feature in digital audio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The extant audio also has a loudness and distortion quality to it, which I hear here.

I dont hear significant distortion, even when it peaks around -0.7 dbFS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

When the audio gain is within proper capture levels, it doesn't take much effort to raise the good audio, and further suppress the bad/noise.

If you mean we should capture at high enough input gain to avoid adding noise from stages downstream of the VCR, I agree. But these days with very good but modestly priced converters having over 100db S/N weighted, capturing linear audio with a S/N of perhaps 50db should be a walk in the park. So long as we dont capture with gain so high as to clip, it should be a walk in the park, the margin for error at capture is huge. Most people err by setting gain way too high.

Now below really is some serious clipping from the pro audio world. Thankfully this seems unusual. The severe distortion in Whitney's voice is not in the original 1985 TV studio videotape recording. It is not even in the digitised capture, which I can also link to. It appears in post apparently when somebody tried to "improve" it, "restore" it "clean it up" for subsequent release on CD and DVD and got their gain horribly wrong. What a mess. All the other Whitney tracks in the compilation are fine.

Note that the song starts very quietly. The distortion is only heard further into the song. That's perhaps a clue as to how they set their levels incorrectly. They probably set their level using the quiet section at the start of the song, a trap for young, and not so young, players.

https://youtu.be/uF5E0w2h6wM

[Teefer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

It's not even about spikes. As mentioned, the WAV sample from this thread has a loudness/distortion quality to it. And the noise floor is raised. I agree, the noise in that WAV is unacceptable, but it's the capture card gain that's doing it.

No - you are wrong. A capture card where gain percentages can be overridden in the registry, as you referred to it, wasn't even used. You had no knowledge of my audio capture method and yet asserted that this noise is caused by a capture card? After all of this discussion, this is what you're concluding? Your responses have clearly descended into asininity. You are being intellectually dishonest, or you're under an extremely grave misapprehension.

I wanted to remove all sources of potential noise, so I removed the aged USB-interfacing capture card from the audio chain. I've instead used a modern digital mixer to capture the audio for this sample. I use this equipment every day in my professional line of work with high performance expectations. Gain staging was set in an optimal manner to give the best SNR. No compression, limiting, EQ or any other processing was applied to the audio. I have no idea what you mean by "loudness/distortion quality" to the audio. That is not terminology that would be used in the case of an unprocessed sample. There is no clipping occurring and there is nothing that suggests the audio was processed in any manner. My mixer is not introducing this noise. The noise is equally as apparent when directly output to any hi-fi system, in a purely analog chain.

Please spare us the nonsense. You're not fooling anyone with this verbosity. There is no evidence to suggest that this noise is coming from anything other than the deck's circuitry.

It's clear to any reader that you have some ulterior motive here. I don't know what it is - maybe protecting your ego, or protecting your perceived reputation? I really don't know, but it isn't working. Based on the preponderance of the evidence, the deck you sold me has a crappy linear audio circuit and it is responsible for the noise in all of the samples. It's as simple as that.

[lordsmurf]

Ulterior motive? WTF? You're being intentionally argumentative now. You ignore questions, don't respond to posts/emails/PMs, and apparently hold back information.

There is distortion in that sample WAV, and it's too loud. That audio capture sucks.

For the 3rd time now, did you try the MONO, HIFI, L and R settings in the JVC menus?

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Ulterior motive? WTF? You're being intentionally argumentative now. You ignore questions, don't respond to posts/emails/PMs, and apparently hold back information.

There is distortion in that sample WAV, and it's too loud. That audio capture sucks.

We can't hear anything really appreciable; to be frank. That's on one of our working systems, Tannoy Reveal or BeyerDynamic DT770/DT990.

The capture appears perfect specification wise, it does not suck in my opinion.

[Teefer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Ulterior motive? WTF? You're being intentionally argumentative now. You ignore questions, don't respond to posts/emails/PMs, and apparently hold back information.

There is distortion in that sample WAV, and it's too loud. That audio capture sucks.

For the 3rd time now, did you try the MONO, HIFI, L and R settings in the JVC menus?

Correcting your misrepresentation again -- I do not recall receiving any PMs from you to which I have not responded. I do not recall receiving any e-mails from you requesting replies which I have not provided. I do not intentionally hold back information. As I respect my own time and the appropriate process for troubleshooting, I cannot answer questions in this thread that are evidently seeking to act as red herrings and obfuscate the true source of the problem.

The sample in post #19 is not distorted, nor is it too loud. Your subjective opinion doesn't qualify as fact.

Yes of course I have cycled and tested all deck OSD options, especially audio related ones.

The problem is that the linear audio circuit in the deck you sold me is noisy as I and other forum members have concluded for quite some time now.

[lordsmurf]

"I cannot answer questions" was my point. You can't have a Q&A troubleshoot when you ignore Q (and gripe). Be it posts, emails, PMs.

So when you cycled the audio options in the menu, what happened?

In terms of hearing (or not hearing) the over-loudness of the clip, we'll just have to disagree. What I hear there is not what I would do, too loud, and would (and does!) lead to issues. You can't treat VHS sourced audio like other random (and usually better) sources.

This "problem" in the JVC linear audio performance isn't my fault. I didn't design the deck, JVC did. Nothing in my refurb process would cause a linear-only audio issues. What you're running into here is an inherent weakness of JVC decks. Not just this specific unit, or even this specific model. And it's not even a JVC specific issue.

You need to buy a Panasonic AG-1980P. It's a money pit of a deck, but certain sources require it. This is one of those times. Either that, or just live with the crappy wiggly (no line TBC) video quality from your other low-end decks. The ones with the "better" linear audio output. Maybe add an ES10/15 (or Canadian ES16), to make it less bad. But again noting that most people are far more bothered by bad/imperfect video, than bad/imperfect audio. The world is visual.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

I dont hear significant distortion, even when it peaks around -0.7 dbFS.

No, I can't either. I don't have a 'golden ear' though, my audio perception is plumb-average, which sometimes can be quite useful! Sounds like a very effective transfer to me, using the full range of the quantisation values - very cromulent. Raised noise-floor or no, that's relatively easily dealt with in post-production with modern software, what can not be recreated is a poorly quantised 'quiet' recording.

Most strategies for removing noise work by amplifying the noise-floor as an intermediate stage anyway - so if the audio is going to be edited properly raising the noise floor isn't usually too much of an issue in my opinion, but audio noise-reduction strategies are something I leave to others as this really isn't my area of expertise beyond using processes like those found in Audition etc, anything serious I pass on.

I wonder if having a recording with less effective bit-depth in the noise makes the noise more tricky to eliminate? Maybe our audio experts could chip in?

Quote:

Now below really is some serious clipping from the pro audio world. Thankfully this seems unusual. The severe distortion in Whitney's voice is not in the original 1985 TV studio videotape recording. It is not even in the digitised capture, which I can also link to. It appears in post apparently when somebody tried to "improve" it, "restore" it "clean it up" for subsequent release on CD and DVD and got their gain horribly wrong. What a mess. All the other Whitney tracks in the compilation are fine.

Heavens, that sample is rough - I do wonder how that slipped through quality control!

Quote:

They probably set their level using the quiet section at the start of the song, a trap for young, and not so young, players.

Don't turn it on, take it apart?! - Sounds very much like a Dave Jones'ism!

[latreche34]

Teefer, Check 12voltvids YT channel, Maybe he has a tip about this problem or if you are close you can just drop it off so he can fix it for you for a charge, could be something very easy and won't cost much.

Also here is a similar thread over at videohelp:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...Fi-audio-issue

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Also here is a similar thread over at videohelp:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...Fi-audio-issue

Just remember that subpar linear playback isn't a problem of the SR-V101, or even JVC. You could probably look up any number of popular JVC models, and come across threads like that. Same for popular non-JVCs. Even before the SR-V101 existed, we'd discuss the HR-S9600 and 9800 decks in newsgroups and the pre-forum internet..

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Just remember that subpar linear playback isn't a problem of the SR-V101, or even JVC. You could probably look up any number of popular JVC models, and come across threads like that. Same for popular non-JVCs. Even before the SR-V101 existed, we'd discuss the HR-S9600 and 9800 decks in newsgroups and the pre-forum internet..

Is this information about the performance strengths and weaknesses of various VCR's easily available in one handy spot on this site so potential buyers can make informed decisions before buying?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Is this information about the performance strengths and weaknesses of various VCR's easily available in one handy spot on this site so potential buyers can make informed decisions before buying?

That's not a question that can be answered.

The tapes partially determine the quality of the playback. VCR playback isn't a binary process, yes/no or on/off, but one with many variables. Tapes are a variable, and the recording cameras/VCRs have a big impact on this. For example, when a person says "all of my tapes", it's not immediately a valid statement, as the same units (or comparables, if more than one) could have recorded all.

So there's no way to create such a list. JVCs do perform lesser with linear audio, but then that's true of most VCRs. The few consistent exceptions are many Panasonics and rebadges, from crappy consumer VCRs to high-end (and PITA) AG-1980.

Again, linear audio is ancient, and even the "best" capture will be not-great. It requires post-capture restoration to pull out that greatness. And a capture file needs fall within a "goldilocks zone" of values, not just recorded too high/low (either by choice, or by happenstance).

At very most, you can make a few general statements, like "Panasonic AG-1980 tends to break constantly, even recap'd and refurb'd units" or "JVC tends to have lower quality audio on linear mono tapes". While I could add that to guides, I really don't think it'll help as much as confuse.

[leeoverstreet]

I need two questions answered:

1) Was Teefer's VCR sold "as-is" or not?
2) Is Teefer getting his money back or not?

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Teefer, Check 12voltvids YT channel, Maybe he has a tip about this problem or if you are close you can just drop it off so he can fix it for you for a charge, could be something very easy and won't cost much.

Also here is a similar thread over at videohelp:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...Fi-audio-issue

Yes a local fix would probably be better given the transatlantic distance. Another easy improvement would be to check/ align the play head's azimuth (only one screw to adjust) either to a good standard azimuth alignment cassette, or to Teefer's camcorder footage as per the YT clips (walking up the steps). It would not reduce the noise tones/whistles from the deck (which may be endemic to the design and to perhaps many VHS VCR's), but it would make the soundtrack brighter and clearer, as in Teefer's own Panasonic YT transfer, which can go a long way to masking a deck's own linear audio residual noise.