VHS transfer with Blackmagic, problems?

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by McCarthy

This is not a problem for me since I'm not going to capture any tapes with copy protection. My only interest is in home recordings from eBay, flea markets, etc. Only used this tape to have a good source tape for testing. Looks like I'll have to record my own test tape.

Will come back once I have done a long capture so that I know if I have a audio drifting issue. Will also test other de interlacing options.

This is the kind of tapes that clearly demonstrate the inconsistancy of BM analog capture devices, BM is only good for interfacing SDI to computer. Ensemble Designs, Snell & Wilcox, Aja and some consumer USB/PCIe devices have much more resilient devices to this type of problematic tapes.

To address this problem you will need a different capture device which is costly or add Pany ES10/15 in the chain.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

But you're missing something. Anti-copy (Macrovision and others) is just an artificial video errors. Natural errors can appear similar, and still trip up detections. Again, Blackmagic carsd are very inferior to any tape signal defects, and all VHS signals are defective in some way. You're fighting the grain by using it, pissing uphill.

I'm running out of ways to make you realize this isn't the card you're looking for. (Waves Obi-wan hand in front of you. )

Do you think professional video tape signals are (your terminology) cleaner?

I've asked before, but which formats did/do you use in the studio? Would you say VHS requires more timing correction?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

or add Pany ES10/15 in the chain.

Even that may not help. This card is pervasive, infamously so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews

Do you think professional video tape signals are (your terminology) cleaner?
Would you say VHS requires more timing correction?

It depends.

Something like U-matic has unique problems, it's different, maybe not better, but a TBC made for VHS really does not address what is needed.

Something like Betacam is cleaner signal-wise.

To be blunt, I'm not sure if you're actually asking a legitimate question here, or if you're trying to be an obnoxious contrarian again, merely asking a passive aggressive setup question before you go on some irrational trollish tirade. Tread lightly, my patience for this behavior is about gone.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Even that may not help. This card is pervasive, infamously so.


It depends.

Something like U-matic has unique problems, it's different, maybe not better, but a TBC made for VHS really does not address what is needed.

Something like Betacam is cleaner signal-wise.

To be blunt, I'm not sure if you're actually asking a legitimate question here, or if you're trying to be an obnoxious contrarian again, merely asking a passive aggressive setup question before you go on some irrational trollish tirade. Tread lightly, my patience for this behavior is about gone.

I think you get slightly annoyed when people disagree with you, I make no apology for that. I'd rather 'ask' than 'tell' people what they do, know or what their experiences are.

You've spent decades being often unwarrantedly obnoxious to strangers on the internet (waved away with ' people don't want coddling'), I am just trying to ask you some genuine questions, you might not imagine so, but I do have better things to do with my time than to start rows on the internet with people I don't know.

Which formats did you work with? It's a genuine question, I'm trying to understand what you mean about 'cleaner signals' etc, because from what you either have a very different experience of professional videotape to many of us, or you just haven't used that much of it.

Maybe if I knew I could actually format a reply or at least understand how you've arrived at some points.

[latreche34]

While the flagging or skew defect is tape/VCR related, it can be remidied by enhancing the HBI signal in the video stream before conversion to digital, Once converted to digital everything is baked in. Pro capture devices can indeed address this problem, the next best thing will be the ES10/15 as I mentioned above.

[RobustReviews]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

While the flagging or skew defect is tape/VCR related, it can be remidied by enhancing the HBI signal in the video stream before conversion to digital, Once converted to digital everything is baked in. Pro capture devices can indeed address this problem, the next best thing will be the ES10/15 as I mentioned above.

That's actually an interesting consideration.

Not personally attempted it, but that actually doesn't sound like a bad shout.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

While the flagging or skew defect is tape/VCR related, it can be remidied by enhancing the HBI signal in the video stream before conversion to digital, Once converted to digital everything is baked in. Pro capture devices can indeed address this problem, the next best thing will be the ES10/15 as I mentioned above.

In theory.

The problem with BM cards is purely the SD ingest. Even with TBCs. Even with clean signals. It's just so damned touchy. That's the problem. So even DataVideo TBC-1000 and ES10/15 type recorders can fail to provide signals to appease the devices. This has been reported for probably a decade now with BM cards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobustReviews

I think you get slightly annoyed when people disagree with you,

I get annoyed when people say false BS. This site is intended to help others, not spread misinformation, not to pontificate about how vast and impressive (not) their video knowledge is (isn't). Nor try to find exceptions/loopholes, and then pretend that said exceptions overrule general rules. Those exist for a reason.

In this conversation thus far:
- this thread is a perfect example of why Blackmagic cards are really bad for VHS
- this thread is a good example for why TBCs intended for consumer analog formats are needed, not just any random TBC (such as studio rackmounts)

^ Those are the rules. What people like you fail to understand is that I don't necessarily like the rules, but the rules they be. It is what it is. Like it or lump it. This entire site was established to navigate the rules of video, to get quality results. First as my personal notebook online, and then expanded over the decades.

Quote:

You've spent decades being often unwarrantedly obnoxious to strangers on the internet

I think many, many others would disagree with you.

Quote:

you either have a very different experience of professional videotape to many of us, or you just haven't used that much of it.

Ditto.

[latreche34]

If you have a crappy VCR to experiment with you can create the flagging problem by screwing the tape tension adjustement or one of the P guides just enough to afect the top 5-10% of the frame and before you start to loose video RF, And you can actually recover the tape with good results assuming you have the right gear.

[McCarthy]

Just for the record, I don't own a Blackmagic card, it is a standalone device. Here a link:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005VNE85Y

Those reviews are pretty decent and don't seem to be bought or faked.
Not sure if the BM cards are the same or worse.

Do you guys have a top 10 list of capture devices or something like that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

If you have a crappy VCR to experiment with you can create the flagging problem by screwing the tape tension adjustement or one of the P guides just enough to afect the top 5-10% of the frame and before you start to loose video RF, And you can actually recover the tape with good results assuming you have the right gear.

I have 3 more VCRs incoming, so I can test and use alternatives.

My current JVC is in like-new condition and has no problem with any other tapes. I also cleaned the mechanics and lubed every part according to the service manual.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by McCarthy

Just for the record, I don't own a Blackmagic card, it is a standalone device.

You're be too literal. The "card" is the board with chips, regardless of the comm method used. You're probably thinking of internal desktop cards, which use ISA, PCI, AGP, PCIe, and others. But those are just comms. USB, Firewire, Thunderbolt, etc -- also cards. So that "external" device is just a card in a box.

Quote:

Those reviews are pretty decent and don't seem to be bought or faked.

Amazon reviews are largely left by idiots. This has been widely known for years. There have literally been dangerous items that catch fire on Amazon, and yet those still had overall good reviews.

You have to take use case, knowledge of the user, their acceptance of (low) quality, etc, into consideration. Unless you see dozens of reviews specifically stating that the item was used for transferring VHS, with full details on workflow hardware, and samples are attached showing that the transfers really are excellent, then it's just worthless blah-blah that doesn't apply to you or your use case, nor address the problems you're running into.

There are far too many people that just accept whatever terrible quality is barfed out of a capture card, and falsely assume "VHS is just terrible". VHS is fine, it's the gear that's terrible, their methods that are terrible.

Quote:

Do you guys have a top 10 list of capture devices or something like that?

What is your use case?
For example, transfer, edit, make a documentary for broadcast?
Or just transfer some videos for yourself, friends, family, fellow collectors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by McCarthy

I have 3 more VCRs incoming, so I can test and use alternatives.
My current JVC is in like-new condition and has no problem with any other tapes. I also cleaned the mechanics and lubed every part according to the service manual.

VCRs can be touchy, easy to damage heads from wrong cleaning supplies (NEVER Q-TIPS!), overlube, etc. But for now, let's assume you did a textbook good job?

[McCarthy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

You're be too literal. The "card" is the board with chips, regardless of the comm method used. You're probably thinking of internal desktop cards, which use ISA, PCI, AGP, PCIe, and others. But those are just comms. USB, Firewire, Thunderbolt, etc -- also cards. So that "external" device is just a card in a box.

Amazon reviews are largely left by idiots. This has been widely known for years. There have literally been dangerous items that catch fire on Amazon, and yet those still had overall good reviews.

You have to take use case, knowledge of the user, their acceptance of (low) quality, etc, into consideration. Unless you see dozens of reviews specifically stating that the item was used for transferring VHS, with full details on workflow hardware, and samples are attached showing that the transfers really are excellent, then it's just worthless blah-blah that doesn't apply to you or your use case, nor address the problems you're running into.

There are far too many people that just accept whatever terrible quality is barfed out of a capture card, and falsely assume "VHS is just terrible". VHS is fine, it's the gear that's terrible, their methods that are terrible.

What is your use case?
For example, transfer, edit, make a documentary for broadcast?
Or just transfer some videos for yourself, friends, family, fellow collectors?

VCRs can be touchy, easy to damage heads from wrong cleaning supplies (NEVER Q-TIPS!), overlube, etc. But for now, let's assume you did a textbook good job?

I used MG Chemicals Single Head Chamois Swabs with 91% isopropyl alcohol.

I'll buy pre recorded tapes from eBay etc, go through them, and capture everything 80s and early 90s that reminds me of my childhood and teenage time. Fun content like commercials, rare toons and shows, things you can't find on DVDs or streaming channels.

I may upload the content to YouTube if I find enough good material.

When I'm going to stream this content in my house, I'll have it stored on a Synology NAS with 8 hard drives (16 TB). I'll stream within my 10 GB ethernet home network. Players are 4k ROKUs hooked up to TVs (ranging from 42" 1080p to 75" 4k) and laptops with external monitors (also 1080p to 4k).

I plan to keep only one file for every capture after editing is done. It needs to be 1080p and compressed to a good quality, ready for streaming in my home network and ready to upload to YouTube. Something like max 1.5 GB / h. I'm open to suggestions.

[lordsmurf]

Being random tapes, I wonder if oxide is shedding, even micro shedding.

If sharing this with anybody, just do it properly.
If doing this to any scale/volume, also do it properly, for your own sanity.

[McCarthy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Being random tapes, I wonder if oxide is shedding, even micro shedding.

If sharing this with anybody, just do it properly.
If doing this to any scale/volume, also do it properly, for your own sanity.

I think this reply belongs to another thread.

[lordsmurf]

"I'll buy pre recorded tapes from eBay etc" = random tapes.
... and discussing cleaning gear.

[McCarthy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

"I'll buy pre recorded tapes from eBay etc" = random tapes.
... and discussing cleaning gear.

Yes, but your reply was out of context since I asked for a list of best gear, replied to your question, and didn't get an answer after all.