JVC HR-S8960 strange capture defects, improper lines captured?

[FinnTape79]

I posted this because you may have experienced similar problem... I am grateful for the help I have already received here. New problems still seem to appear and the whole VHS sometimes feels like a cursed piece of technology. I can't give up :-D. Capture software used was Virtualdub (64 bit).

Today I finally started using the JVC HR-S8960 tape recorder for digitization. The internal TBC was ON, Best On (Edit). The first half hour was accompanied by so-called normal, rarely occuring irregular image errors which were consistent with the expected condition of the tape. In the later half, errors began to appear in the picture at an almost steady pace (Compared to the previously executed JVC HR-S6700 + ES10 capture, remarkably often, like 5 - 10 times more). I ran HR-S8960 without TBC, BEST and also only with Stabilizer on. Also all off, no improvement. The unprocessed (all off) picture was quite choatic but seemed that the basic "lowsy" VHS tracking was ok in the natural form without processing. This sample capture is taken from 2005 VHS tape (60min). I also ran with HR-S8960 TBC ON + DMR-ES10 as a secondary picture corrector. HR-S8960 TBC OFF + DMR-ES10. No improvement. Samples have TBC ON + BEST ON / Edit and connection was HR-S8960 via S-Video directly to capture card Avermedia H789.

I have attached the still images to this post. Google link has problematic samples with HR-S8960 along with previous "good enough" HR-S6700 samples. Huffyuv samples running at normal speed and slowed down x264 versions (to underline picture errors) can be found at this link (also check the attachments of this post):

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...nF?usp=sharing

My own analyzes of this error:

The incorrectly drawn image lines have been read, but their information has not been synchronized correctly. Why did the error occur now on the secondary recorder (S6700), where it did not occur the previous time?

Connection methods used:

JVC HR-S8960 Connection was from the tape recorder to AverMedia H789 (Conexant CX23888) S-Video. Secondary recorder JVC HR-S6700 was connected to Panasonic DMR-ES10 and from ES10 to Avermedia H789. All S-Video.

Cause of error (guess):

Avermedia H789 has problems on handling the signal (condenser or other circuit not working as intended). Maybe the problem get worsen at the time the circuit board heats up because the first 30min was very clean (maybe circuit was cool). Partly broken S-video cable because I have removed and attached it while testing recorders. The head drum of both recorders has become dirty almost at the same time. The error is quite specific and the rest of the image is of good quality. The tape is relatively new and it has been able to play quite stably even with lower class recorders. Weird

Upcoming steps:

Tomorrow I try to add my good 'ol PCI PINNACLE PCTV 100 (Philips SA.... circuit) and check this theory on improper handling of signal because of hardware problem. So trying to exclude the capture card from the list of causes. I try secondary S-Video cables.

*** Let me know if the google drive link doesn't open. You should find files with following names:
01_Error_frame_2714.JPG
02_Error_frame_2946.JPG
03_Error_frame_4622.JPG
04_Error_frame_12166.JPG
HR_S8960_TBC_ON_Best_ON_Auto_direct_Avermedia_Huff YUV422.avi
HR_S8960_TBC_ON_Best_ON_Auto_direct_Avermedia_Huff YUV422__on_ongelmia_x264.avi
JVC_HR_S6700_DMR_ES10_correction_HuffYUV422.avi
JVC_HR_S6700_DMR_ES10_correction_HuffYUV422_ei_vai kuttavia_ongelmia_x264.avi

[timtape]

Looking only at the first still, it looks cropped, top and bottom, as if to make it fill a wide screen. The black side bars may be related to this. Standard VHS is natively 4:3.

[hodgey]

I've have a similar looking issue with dropout compensation on the Philips VR1100 (similar to PAL JVC HR-S77xx) and JVC HR-J681, and also on the Panasonic NV-HS870 (And a NV-HD610 I have also has something a bit similar but that one differs a bit more). My older and newer JVCs don't have this issue, and neither does other vcrs and the lines with dropouts have the signal replaced with the previous line properly (to a degree at least). No idea what causes it but it kinda ruins the use of those vcrs for capture for me. Something about the compensated lines caused them to not be the correct level or something so they don't line up properly. I don't think it has anything to do with the capture card, it's something with the VCR. Did you try it with a completely different vcr (like not JVC) + ES10?

Idk if it's the case that the S6700's behaviour changed over time, or if the dropouts became worse from the tape being worned from being played/aging and thus more noticeable, didn't wait to download all of the clips but suspect the latter.

[FinnTape79]

Status update: Fortunately, only certain cassettes are affected by incorrectly drawn lines (tested 4 tapes, 2 of them ok, 2 of them with excess amont of lines). Going 50% - 50% at the moment between useful/ineligibility.

I just ran my deceased friend's 1995 wedding video and it repeated itself within the limits of the normal number of errors I consider. The JVC S8960 based capture is currently in avisynth rendering, where I do basic qtgmc deinterlaces and noise removal. Still, these experiences seem to show that these newer generation recorders are not the solution for all playbacks. Because of this, the Panasonic NV-FS90EG tape recorders I use are undergoing thorough maintenance. They are from 1992 and do not have any digital tunings. Unfortunately, no TBC either. These have to be run through DMR ES10, which is already its own solution, but at the same time a problem in some situations.

This DigiPure thing does a good job when working and clearly reduces the need for temporal degrain -> faster rendering with avisynth. Rainbowing distortion practically does not occur either. Line TBC works well and picture geometry looks decent. Signal is stable enough and capture card doesn't drop frames or interrupt operation (based on experience on 4 tapes).

I didn't dig up the dirty 'ol Pinnacle with green frame defect. Im pretty sure based on your information that the problem's root cause is related to the VCR / TAPE combo - how to handle dropped lines etc. But there's always a change to do 1:1 between Capture Cards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

I've have a similar looking issue with dropout compensation on the Philips VR1100 (similar to PAL JVC HR-S77xx) and JVC HR-J681, and also on the Panasonic NV-HS870 (And a NV-HD610 I have also has something a bit similar but that one differs a bit more). My older and newer JVCs don't have this issue, and neither does other vcrs and the lines with dropouts have the signal replaced with the previous line properly (to a degree at least). No idea what causes it but it kinda ruins the use of those vcrs for capture for me. Something about the compensated lines caused them to not be the correct level or something so they don't line up properly. I don't think it has anything to do with the capture card, it's something with the VCR. Did you try it with a completely different vcr (like not JVC) + ES10?

Sorry Timtape, i just took quick snapshot / VirtualDub 64 screen with windows Snipping tool. Those are just quick and dirty illustrations on how the improperly drawn lines look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Looking only at the first still, it looks cropped, top and bottom, as if to make it fill a wide screen. The black side bars may be related to this. Standard VHS is natively 4:3.

[aramkolt]

Hmm. I don't quite have my setup completed in order to capture what I'm seeing and getting it down the exact frame, but I've got 4 different working JVC HR-S30U units (all bought from different sellers) which technically are later variants of the 7600 line with 2MB Line TBCs and they all seem to create the same sort of horizontal line dropout issues on the same frames as each other. This leads me to believe it is inherent to this series of VCR rather than there being something "wrong" with a particular unit hardware-wise. I think we may be seeing the same issue on yours.

So far, I have just used commercial release VHS tapes in good physical condition from Goodwill to have the best quality starting material to get a feel for differences in playback between different VCRs.

I don't have much in the way of a VCR collection outside of those 30U's, but I do have a Panasonic DMR-EZ48V (Consumer DVD/VHS combo unit) mainly to play around with the component and HDMI out. The EZ48V seems to handle these "line dropout errors" much better than the JVC with most being being completely unnoticeable on that.

Also possible I may be mis-identifying what a "dropout" error really is. Oddly there doesn't seem to be a YouTube video that identifies common VHS playback errors that I could find so that we are all using the same terminology with examples in mind. Even examples of worn heads vs tracking issues vs dirty heads doesn't seem to be out there on the same video. Could be I just am not seeing it though

[FinnTape79]

I have plan to make a secondary capture with S6700 and to use that in video editor "parallel" video track sync 1:1. Flow goes: At the time of the line error, I take the frames of the version captured by the S6700. This can have two problems. S6700 is fed via DMR-ES10 so the frame can have slightly different color map and different resolution size. Testing this "parallel video track - pick a frame from there" approach tomorrow. Rude way could be just double the frames with previous / upcoming clean frame from the same capture. This slows down the frame rate for the eye... Let's see.

And I am now more confident that this "odd lines defect" issue is a feature on JVC... Damn. S8960 is
a highly acclaimed mode and it took two years to get these S6700 and S8960 from a reliable local seller.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Hmm. I don't quite have my setup completed in order to capture what I'm seeing and getting it down the exact frame, but I've got 4 different working JVC HR-S30U units (all bought from different sellers) which technically are later variants of the 7600 line with 2MB Line TBCs and they all seem to create the same sort of horizontal line dropout issues on the same frames as each other. This leads me to believe it is inherent to this series of VCR rather than there being something "wrong" with a particular unit hardware-wise. I think we may be seeing the same issue on yours.