Hi8 camcorder sharper than Digital8 camera?

[iseevisions]

So it's the head that's causing the edge smearing, or not? Do you have any experience with such phenomenon?
Or could be corroded internal contacts like stated in this post?: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...html#post65886 , which also lists a couple PAL models.

If I buy another cam, that will be a whole trial/error thing and could get expensive...
Or do you have a recommendation for a perfect cam (true Hi8, sharp, no smearing, TBC) ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

..

@lordsmurf ?

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iseevisions

So you are saying that capturing the s-video out to a good capturecard isn't going to be better than DV through firewire with such camcorders?

The S-Video and composite output on the digital8 camcorders do not go via the DV encoder, so it's worth using it over the firewire one. All the hi8 camcorder from the last generations which featured tbc/dnr on the high end models do go through a A->D->A step in the camcorder (whether or not TBC/DNR is active). There is little difference between how the output looks between the Sony consumer d8 tbc/dnr models and Sony consumer hi8 tbc/dnr models

The TRV-805E is an older model that used an all analog decoding chain so it doesn't have the chroma bug on the right edge and the video output is a little different looking, though no build in TBC so you'll would want to use it with someting else that can provide stabilization like certain models of dvd-recorder (Since it's PAL, generally 2005 or newer Panasonic, 2005 or newer Pioneer, 2007 or newer standalone Sony) if you much prefer the look of it. Also electrolytic capacitors Sony used in the camcorders from the early 90s like this model tend to go bad and leak over time so very often they don't work or have issues so they're rarely worth pursuing unless one enjoys servicing them oneself.

Were images in the thread from the d8 camcorder captured with s-video or DV? Some capture cards adds some simple sharpening with the default settings, though the hi8 one doesn't really look any sharper to me. Don't seem anything out of the ordinary with how your Digital8 capture looks, wouldn't expect any of the Sony hi8 models with tbc/dnr to look very different.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The S-Video and composite output on the digital8 camcorders do not go via the DV encoder,

Some do route all input through the DV encoder, I have one of those. You can noticeably see the color loss. It's a great Digita8 camera, but only for Digital8. Though I have used it for some Hi8, as the line TBC acted different. It was a net positive outcome, even with the color hit.

[iseevisions]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The S-Video and composite output on the digital8 camcorders do not go via the DV encoder, so it's worth using it over the firewire one.

When comparing the DV & s-video, the latter is the slightest bit sharper, when pixel peeping hard (almost not visible), see pics:

d8-dvgrab: d8-dvgrab.jpg

d8svid2matrox:

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Also the DV does have more pixels on the left side comparing to s-video out (so does the Hi8 cam's s-video, so it's not the capture card's fault), that gives it a higher score in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The TRV-805E ... capacitors Sony used in the camcorders from the early 90s like this model tend to go bad...

Indeed and mine is slowly dying already; audio dropouts, weird colors, composite broken,... unstable overall. And no TBC makes the capture glitch more.
BUT, it is still sharper than the D8 cam, see: d8svid2matrox.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Were images in the thread from the d8 camcorder captured with s-video or DV?

Captured via s-video to a matrox MXO2 mini, same as with the Hi8 cam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

the hi8 one doesn't really look any sharper to me. Don't seem anything out of the ordinary with how your Digital8 capture looks, wouldn't expect any of the Sony hi8 models with tbc/dnr to look very different.

You can see the smearing/noise of the d8 camcorder on almost all edges in the image, see comparison pic I've made:

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(cleaning the heads doesn't make any difference.)
But then again, it's a bit of pixel peeping...

Also the vhs-decode project I was looking into is a bit of a rabbithole and is not yet stable for hi8.

I think I'm going to start to settle with what I've got working now since I've got to digitize a bunch of tapes for my family members and they are eagerly waiting for their childhood memories

The chroma bug is something I can maybe fix/workaround in post processing. I've noticed that it's not visible on all colors, red yes, blue no I think. So instead of just extending the chroma of a few pixels earlier in the line (like some do with avisynth), I'm going to rotate a colorbars image, record+capture this and see what can be done better about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Some do route all input through the DV encoder ... You can noticeably see the color loss...

What model do you have?
If I see no color loss in my case, does that mean it doesn't route through DV first, or how best to check this?

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iseevisions

I've noticed that it's not visible on all colors, red yes, blue no I think. ?

Yeah it's only one of the two YUV color channels that are affected from what I remember.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the d8 camcorder, though the 805E might be getting the equalization done on the image marginally closer to what it was originally since it was the camera that recorded it originally (the image is EQed in a complex manner when recorded to tape and this is "undone" on playback and this isn't going to be 100% equal between different implementations). Of course it doesn't have a TBC and digital NR of the newer camcorders. That said you want to be a bit careful with equating "sharper" with better, sharpness doesn't have to imply actual detail.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iseevisions

What model do you have?
If I see no color loss in my case, does that mean it doesn't route through DV first, or how best to check this?

- Camera put up right now.
- Eh, when you really don't have a baseline to know what you're looking for, it's really just guessing. We already see too much "looks good to me" and "it worked for me" when issues do actually exists. Your sample, browns, won't show as stark as saturated red, blue, green.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Of course it doesn't have a TBC and digital NR of the newer camcorders.

Yuck.
Camcorders are so cheap lately, $200 or less, just buy one (use it, resell it, and maybe profit later when prices so low now).

Quote:

want to be a bit careful with equating "sharper" with better, sharpness doesn't have to imply actual detail.

Quoted because it cannot be stated enough.

[nicholasserra]

I've never noticed a massive drop in quality when comparing my DCR-TRV captures vs analog cam CCD-TRV captures. Even on the firewire path. To the point that I actually ALWAYS do a lossless pass on the analog cams and then a digital (firewire) pass on the D8 cams.

I will say that the analog cams do seem to more consistently play V8/HI8 tapes. I'll often get analog tapes that don't play right on the D8 cams.

Don't rule out the D8 cam just being toast. There's a reason those of us that capture a ton of tapes have a small arsenal of gear. I think I have a dozen 8mm cams at this point.

[iseevisions]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

- Camera put up right now.

That's not a model number
If we know which ones have and don't have the DV routing, we can possibly find out a pattern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

you want to be a bit careful with equating "sharper" with better, sharpness doesn't have to imply actual detail.

In my case it looks like more detail. Here is another example frame:

d8-dvgrab
d8-dvgrab.jpg

Slightly sharper/more detail than previous, but less resolution on left side:

d8svid2matrox

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Even more sharpness/detail (but worse chroma/luma):

hi8svid2matrox
d8svid2matrox.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicholasserra

I'll often get analog tapes that don't play right on the D8 cams.

I've noticed that when PB MODE set to AUTO, it first tries to play it as D8, than after a couple of seconds switches to Hi8 and plays further without rewinding so I miss the beginning of the tape.
When PB MODE set to Hi8/V8 in menu, it plays it straight away analog.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iseevisions

I've noticed that when PB MODE set to AUTO, it first tries to play it as D8, than after a couple of seconds switches to Hi8 and plays further without rewinding so I miss the beginning of the tape.
When PB MODE set to Hi8/V8 in menu, it plays it straight away analog.

This is a good tip.

However, nicholasserra may see what I've seen, and that menu change had no effect. Just weirdness at time of play. For me, especially digital artifacts on the analog tape output.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

..you want to be a bit careful with equating "sharper" with better, sharpness doesn't have to imply actual detail.

Yes, one way to increase apparent detail or sharpness is to boost contrast, but all it does is amplify what's already there rather than add new detail.

[iseevisions]

I decided to go for this route:

Playback Hi8 PAL on the D8 cam -> s-video -> capture on matrox mxo2 mini uncompressed 8-bit or 10-bit

Then, converting the proprietary matrox format to utvideo mkv with ffmpeg for importing into vapoursynth for fixing the chroma edge issue, deinterlacing, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Yeah it's only one of the two YUV color channels that are affected from what I remember.

In my case it's both of them, but different pixel widths..

Follow-up in https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...html#post94649

-- merged --

Oh one more question here:

If I play a Hi8 analog tape in a D8 camera like the TRV620E, and capture the s-video out, is it even worth it to choose 10-bit video?
In other words: what bit-depth does the internal digital (TBC/DNR) processing of the camcorder use, 8- or 10-bit?

[latreche34]

Most likely 8 bit but it doesn't matter, you are not going to get the digital output, it will be converted back to analog and output via S-Video/composite, The only way to get the digital out before it enters the DAC is via firewire but it has to go through the DV encoder of the firewire board, You can never get a lossless signal from the camcorder's TBC ADC chip, it's either going to be analog or DV.

[iseevisions]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Most likely 8 bit .... it will be converted back to analog and output via S-Video/composite

And thus downgraded already internally to 8-bit (with possible color banding artifact)? So if that's the case, capturing s-video in 10-bit is useless?

[latreche34]

Capturing any analog format in 10bit is useless regardless, But to your point, there is no relationship between what the camcorder did and what the capture format is, You are dealing with S-Video now and capture it with best possible quality without going overboard, But 10bit is overkill not because the camcorder TBC processes at 8 bit, but because the low quality consumer sources, If we are talking Betacam rare footage then yes go full blast, squeeze as much as you can.