VirtualDub audio speeds up, JVC rewind slipping?

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by DannyDorito

I think I'll just go with it.

I probably would as well here. But I would do a final "timestamp" setting check as per above. And then you just need to spot check the entire video once captured.

I hope it continues to work as you currently see.

[DannyDorito]

Well, I’m back again. I had to make some workflow changes as the SR-MV45 that I bought from LS gave up the ghost, so I’m on a VS30U that I got for a decent price. Also had to reinstall windows 7. Sadly, this problem has popped up again and I have no idea how to fix it. I’ve tried everything that worked before in this thread to no avail. The volume meter roughly matches the video preview, and for what it’s worth it matches the CRT I’m previewing on as well. But when watching it back the video drags behind by almost a full second! Any ideas on anything else I could try?

VS30U -> DVK -> ATI USB -> Windows 7 Box

-- merged --

With more testing, this happens in 32 bit, 64 bit, vdub2, everything. And it seems like it has to be something on the encoding side, since it's in sync in preview, although I don't entirely understand how vdub handles the preview. It's certainly an issue with vdub though, as AmaRec handles it fine with no desync. Not sure if amerec is "good enough" by LS standards, but if I don't find anything else on fixing vdub, looks like it might be what I go with. I've attached samples from the same tape as a few months ago, to show what I mean. Anyone musically inclined could pick up on it more, but looking at the mallet players toward the end of the clips makes it evident.

[aramkolt]

SR-MV's are also ones that I've got a fair amount of refurbishing experience with. Their main pitfall is that they use some crappy caps in their power supplies as well as in the DVD recorder section and some SMT caps on the DVD drive. I'm not sure that would cause poor rewinding specifically, but maybe. Usually they get stuck saying "loading" indefinitely when there's a "significant enough" capacitor issue. A lot of mine also have dim displays that don't seem to be correctable with recapping, so guessing the failed caps if they are failed for long enough causes some sort of permanent damage to the display, but luckily that's more of a cosmetic thing and it's still readable "enough" to get by and it doesn't affect playback at all.

The audio thing really seems like it's speeding up or slowing down the audio to match the frame rate (which is one of the sync options), but even for that, it would seem like you must be dropping a lot of frames for the audio to fluctuate that much. I take it you aren't using a frame TBC?

[DannyDorito]

I think the video circuitry went out, probably that entire board that's connected via the world's flimsiest ribbon cables. It had some sort of internal sync issue it looked like, there was just colorful garbage on the screen with occasional bursts of the true image coming up. I gave up on it. Sucks considering I way overpaid for it in the first place... Got a VS30U on eBay for less than a quarter of the price I paid LS, works far better than the MV45 did.

On the audio issue, it's not speeding up or slowing down in vdub, I specifically selected to NOT have that happen after it butchered a few other captures with awful warping. It's all the right speed, just off. No frame drops or at least very few. I am using a DVK-100 as frame tbc, VS30 has an integrated line tbc. everything lines up on displays, on preview, etc, but the final file is desynced. It's very strange. I'm using Amarec at the moment as I can't put this project off any longer, I have to get this done. It's been delayed for so many reasons for the past year. I'd like to use vdub though as Amarec is pretty limited in weird ways (like seriously, why can't it write to something that ISN'T NTFS???)

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by DannyDorito

Also had to reinstall windows 7. Sadly, this problem has popped up again and I have no idea how to fix it. I’ve tried everything that worked before in this thread to no avail

Video capture is a complex computational operation. Sometimes minor system OS/software changes, or corruptions, or even hardware fault with in the computer, can disrupt the delicate balance needed. Or the delicate balance you once had. Anybody that has done capture with any length of time has run into this, often multiple times if you do it for multiple years. For example, at this exact moment, the TBSC card slaved to my primary ATI AIW system decided to start outputting noise -- and replacing the card had zero effect. So the problem is elsewhere, and a reformat (and new main drive) is in it's near future.

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And it seems like it has to be something on the encoding side,

Encoding?

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since it's in sync in preview, although I don't entirely understand how vdub handles the preview.

Did you try another codec yet? Not necessarily for actual usage, but just for the sake of testing. Lagarith, for example.

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Anyone musically inclined could pick up on it more, but looking at the mallet players toward the end of the clips makes it evident.

Just to state the obvious, neither video is a source capture, correct? But rather a deinterlaced downconverted H.264 copy. Sometimes that would have an obvious effect, but perhaps not here.

In the "from VirtualDub" clip, I immediately see a 10-frame "stick" at the start of the video. 10 frames is about .333 ms. But there's also some jumps in there, which may have confused something. The encoding to H.264 may also be a problem, because there's a chance that an encoder misread audio/video start.

In that tiny length H.264 converted clip, what I see is a 600ms delay. If you load the file into VirtualDub2 (because it can natively read the H264 in MP4 wrapper), and then go to Audio, and Interleave, adjust it to 600 ms. It's now in sync.

BTW, is that a BOA Nationals competition in Indianapolis?! (I don't think you're old enough to have been in that, when it was in the Colt's Hoosier Dome, so what relation are you to whoever was in it? Parents?)

Also, marching band videos confuse deinterlace algorithms, so I have some tips, at a later date, after you're done capturing, and are looking to process anything. Definitely keep the interlaced captures. I have never found a perfectly satisfying deinterlace filter for these sorts of band videos, but hopefully we get something someday.

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Originally Posted by aramkolt

Their main pitfall is that they use some crappy caps in their power supplies as well as in the DVD recorder section and some SMT caps on the DVD drive. I'm not sure that would cause poor rewinding specifically, but maybe.

Yes. In the past, many of my decks have refurb'd or swapped power boards. The DVD drive isn't as important, the VCR can by used even if it's failed. However, the type of failure matters. Unfortunately, the DVD half of the unit shares some smaller boards with the front display, so you can't just remove it like you can with VS decks.

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dim displays that don't seem to be correctable with recapping,

Correct. LCDs can fail to illuminate entirely when left on for too long, or when left off for too long (years, decades). And that pretty much described this model of VCR. It was sold to organizations that ran it 24/7 at times, and then set it in a box in a warehouse for 10 years. So it got screwed both ways. You rarely find MV decks that are bright. And even those "bright" models dim with mild use, given that they're all 20 years old now.

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but luckily that's more of a cosmetic thing and it's still readable "enough" to get by and it doesn't affect playback at all.

Correct.

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The audio thing really seems like it's speeding up or slowing down the audio to match the frame rate (which is one of the sync options), but even for that, it would seem like you must be dropping a lot of frames for the audio to fluctuate that much.

From the samples provided, that's not happening here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyDorito

I think the video circuitry went out, probably that entire board that's connected via the world's flimsiest ribbon cables. It had some sort of internal sync issue it looked like, there was just colorful garbage on the screen with occasional bursts of the true image coming up. I gave up on it.

I actually doubt this is the case. But because JVC did use lousy flimsy cables, in all of the decks, it may be a simple cable issues. There's really no way to have an internal sync error (unless you massively mess with the audio heads). Color bursts may mean a cap went bad again, cascaded from somewhere. It's another case of UPS not read "DO NOT DROP!" labels, and then it has some pretty obvious internal performance drop signs. Hamfisted goons.

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Sucks considering I way overpaid for it in the first place... Got a VS30U on eBay for less than a quarter of the price I paid LS, works far better than the MV45 did.

Well, no. You actually underpaid for the VS30, and won your eBay gamble. That's actually very uncommon. I just hope it doesn't have hidden issues. I hope you opened it, inspected the insides, properly cleaned the heads and transport path, etc. There's a lot more to do, but that's about as far as you can go with easy DIY servicing. Regardless, I'm glad you have another unit now. It's actually getting much harder to find decks in 2024.

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It's certainly an issue with vdub though, as AmaRec handles it fine with no desync. Not sure if amerec is "good enough" by LS standards, but if I don't find anything else on fixing vdub, looks like it might be what I go with. I've attached samples from the same tape as a few months ago, to show what I mean. .....
I'm using Amarec at the moment as I can't put this project off any longer, I have to get this done. It's been delayed for so many reasons for the past year. I'd like to use vdub though as Amarec is pretty limited in weird ways (like seriously, why can't it write to something that ISN'T NTFS???)

AmaRecTV is not magically "keeping it all in sync" when other fail, and the reasoning is likely related to how it ingest and processes video, seeing as how it was created as a streaming/"broadcasting" software for analog video game console sources.

However...

When you've exhausted suggested/proper software, including adjusting settings, and it's still not working for you -- especially if it's causing anxiety/whatever -- and/or especially when it's giving you stress/grief because you're trying to meet some sort of deadline -- then go for it.

Video capture is hard. I try everything I can to make it easier for others -- the hardware suggested for both quality and ease of use, the software (and settings), etc. But because video capture has so many variables (the tape signal, the computer/OS, etc), sometimes you just have to settle. The important thing here is you tried. Most people try, and do succeed. Some try, and fail, and it's not their fault. You kept trying, you found something else that may suffice. Again, go for it.

VS30 > DVK > ATI + Win7 + Amarec = you now have your method. Get to it.

Although, again, what I'm seeing is just a 600ms lag, for whatever reason. I think that could be solved. But as a home user, non-hobby, family videos only, I don't know that it needs solving, unless you're just a person that hates it when "computers win".

... and I'd really enjoy hearing more about the band video, including seeing your final capture.

FYI, in another life, I was involved in marching bands, in various roles. Always enjoyable. I probably saw 1,000 bands over the years. That's something I haven't been able to do in over a decade now (due to health).

[DannyDorito]

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Encoding?

Unless I’m mistaken on how HuffYUV works, there’s still realtime encoding happening, no? My conclusion is that there’s some issue involving that. This is present even before the H264 conversion to post here. I’ll have to figure out how I can trim them down to post. Lossless video quickly balloons in size I haven’t tried Lagarith, but it did happen even before I installed HuffYUV and tested uncompressed.

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BTW, is that a BOA Nationals competition in Indianapolis?! (I don't think you're old enough to have been in that, when it was in the Colt's Hoosier Dome, so what relation are you to whoever was in it? Parents?)

Good eye It’s 1993 Grand nationals, not me, I wasn’t even alive for the VHS age. My mom was in her high school band at that time.
Anyway, I am definitely keeping the original files for all of these. I have plenty of room (hopefully). Would certainly like to know how to do better deinterlace on marching arts recordings. I have DCI, other high school level stuff. Both of my parents were involved for years in various bands.

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There's really no way to have an internal sync error (unless you massively mess with the audio heads).

That’s maybe not the best description of what’s happening. Maybe I’ll hook it back up and post a video. If I can fix it, I could do some less important captures with it, without frame tbc. It’s had a lot of unplugging and plugging in abuse internally since I had to disassemble it so many times to keep fixing it. I may have sheared something off. I spent too many hours on it.

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Well, no. You actually underpaid for the VS30, and won your eBay gamble. That's actually very uncommon. I just hope it doesn't have hidden issues. I hope you opened it, inspected the insides, properly cleaned the heads and transport path, etc. There's a lot more to do, but that's about as far as you can go with easy DIY servicing.

This is perhaps true but for now (I knock wood frantically as I write this) it’s producing a pretty clean image with seemingly decent color, although I don’t really know how to judge that. My only gripe is it loves to flash the Video Calibration overlay on my captures. I suspect there’s a setting I missed. I still need to get in and clean the heads and the transport but I’ve seen varying methods and the copy paper concept terrifies me.

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When you've exhausted suggested/proper software, including adjusting settings, and it's still not working for you -- especially if it's causing anxiety/whatever -- and/or especially when it's giving you stress/grief because you're trying to meet some sort of deadline -- then go for it.

The hard deadline (at least the one I want to meet) is August 9th, when I leave for college. I’m not sure I can budget space for the VCR, TBC, CRT and full desktop in my dorm . While I could certainly leave the unfinished tapes for breaks, I’d rather spend that time with family than be stuck in a room with a VCR. Had I gotten everything when I was hoping, I may have been done by now, but oh well.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyDorito

Unless I’m mistaken on how HuffYUV works, there’s still realtime encoding happening, no? My conclusion is that there’s some issue involving that.

No, I think you're getting a VirtualDub lag at video ingest, but the audio is starting early. It's a setting in VirtualDub for sure. Do you have the actual ATI USB 600, or one of the clones?

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Good eye It’s 1993 Grand nationals, not me, I wasn’t even alive for the VHS age. My mom was in her high school band at that time.

I was at that event! Small world. I have the full set of BOA bands finals from Indy 1993, the "official" releases (with VHS box art, etc).

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I have DCI

Very, very nice.

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I could do some less important captures with it, without frame tbc.

There's no reason to remove the frame TBC(ish) from the workflow.

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My only gripe is it loves to flash the Video Calibration overlay on my captures. I suspect there’s a setting I missed.

You need the remote (JVC LP20303 is fine), and disable Calibration. It actually makes playback worse 99% of the time, on almost all most units. You need to open a new thread, to review your JVC menu settings. Or just search past posts where I discuss menu settings. (R3 off, Calibration off, Picture Mode norm/auto, TBC on).

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I still need to get in and clean the heads and the transport but I’ve seen varying methods and the copy paper concept terrifies me.

It's actually the safest method now. Just be firm + gentle.

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The hard deadline (at least the one I want to meet) is August 9th, when I leave for college. I’m not sure I can budget space for the VCR, TBC, CRT and full desktop in my dorm . While I could certainly leave the unfinished tapes for breaks, I’d rather spend that time with family than be stuck in a room with a VCR. Had I gotten everything when I was hoping, I may have been done by now, but oh well.

You have time.

[DannyDorito]

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Just to state the obvious, neither video is a source capture, correct?

Here are the source videos, captured in HuffYUV in vdub downloaded from this site. Forgive me for the drive link, but the forum didn't like my multi-part zip, and since we're looking at stuff in the beginning and end of the capture, I didn't want to trim it. I figure you don't want 600 MB of lossless captures needlessly clogging your site storage anyway.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...usp=share_link

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... and I'd really enjoy hearing more about the band video, including seeing your final capture.

I'd love to hear your critique on how well I did, what can maybe be improved. I PMed you my capture of it since they say the full school name and the (incorrect, but close) city, so I'd rather not have that public.

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Although, again, what I'm seeing is just a 600ms lag, for whatever reason. I think that could be solved. But as a home user, non-hobby, family videos only, I don't know that it needs solving, unless you're just a person that hates it when "computers win".

While yes, it is just a few hundred milliseconds, it makes the marching band videos painful to watch and even the home videos aren't great. I would be willing to sink more time into fixing it, but as of now I can't tell what's happening. Amarec isn't a great piece of software in my eyes, I'm watching it drop upwards of 20 frames over a 30 minute capture, where vdub would rarely drop any at all. I feel like it's worth it to fix. Maybe something in these source videos would indicate it to you, I'd be very appreciative of any help.

-- merged --

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There's no reason to remove the frame TBC(ish) from the workflow.

I only have one, so I'd keep it on the VS30 if I were doing multiple captures at once.

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You need the remote (JVC LP20303 is fine), and disable Calibration. It actually makes playback worse 99% of the time, on almost all most units. You need to open a new thread, to review your JVC menu settings. Or just search past posts where I discuss menu settings. (R3 off, Calibration off, Picture Mode norm/auto, TBC on).

I've got a harmony remote that has the codes for it, I disabled the overlay, but in older threads you said to keep calibration on on the VS30U as it helps? Wasn't clear.

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I was at that event! Small world. I have the full set of BOA bands finals from Indy 1993, the "official" releases (with VHS box art, etc).

Wow! Surprising. Maybe you'll remember the large flag incident at the end of the show that happened to the band that I've got recordings of...

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No, I think you're getting a VirtualDub lag at video ingest, but the audio is starting early. It's a setting in VirtualDub for sure. Do you have the actual ATI USB 600, or one of the clones?

It's a real ATI 600 (Unless you yourself are selling clones in fake original cases ). Any ideas on why it would be lagging? It does it when using the ATI audio or the motherboard line in like I was before.

[lordsmurf]

Just spend $15 on the OEM remote, JVC LP203030, those programmables never work correctly, missing things like manual tracking (with SP/EP to engage/disengage, and up/down to change).

Ah, yes, use DVK on actual captures, not the deck for testing, if you're doing both at once. (But then, what about capture card and computer? You have two of those now as well?)

I'll have to pull out that video, I don't remember off-hand, not seen it in decades.

Clones look different than the actual ATIs. Those are not "fake", just badged different, different software/drivers.

Alright, ATI, check.
And Win7, correct? Confirm.
Finally, post a screen capture of your VirtualDub 1.9.x timing settings.

[DannyDorito]

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But then, what about capture card and computer? You have two of those now as well?

Could grab another card (or use the Blackmagic Intensity Pro I have, though I won't say that too loudly lest I get shamed I have other computers for sure.) But the point is moot as I confirmed that it was a sheared off pin on one of those stupid ribbon cables. The MV45 won't output any video at all now. Annoying. I found a replacement cable online but I'm not sure it's the exact same pin pitch, and I don't know that it's worth it at this point.

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And Win7, correct? Confirm.

Definitely Win7 Ultimate, SP1 with all security and feature updates installed. (And the nag to update to windows 10. Thanks Microsoft.)

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Finally, post a screen capture of your VirtualDub 1.9.x timing settings.

Attached, I think these were what you recommended before and are what I was using.