ES10 tests shaky letters

[Geremias]

i was trying to post but some error happens..

my setup is VCR NV-J31HQ - composite to ATI TV WOnder 600 usb

attaching some tests, signal straight to capture card or through ES-10 (EU) passthrough (composite)
Virtualdub on win 7

What can be the cause of the shaky letters?

Thanks

[BW37]

Not really a good answer to your question but here are some suggestions:

1. Menu screens are not usually good tests of capture devices. The video they produce is sometimes not a true NTSC or PAL signal so it can cause capture problems. It's best to test with actual video playback from your VCR. This might be the cause of the text shakiness but I'm not sure.

2. It looks like your ES-10 is doing useful things if it can tame that shakiness, whatever it's root cause.

3. It will be best to use s-video from the ES-10 to the TV Wonder 600 USB. That capture device does not have a good comb filter (if any at all) so using the ES-10 for passthrough has the added benefit of providing a decent comb filter to prevent some composite capture problems like dot crawl.

Hope this is useful,

BW

[Geremias]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BW37

Not really a good answer to your question but here are some suggestions:

1. Menu screens are not usually good tests of capture devices. The video they produce is sometimes not a true NTSC or PAL signal so it can cause capture problems. It's best to test with actual video playback from your VCR. This might be the cause of the text shakiness but I'm not sure.

Thank you for your answer.
i do have many tests of the video and yes, it looks much more stabilized.
i´m just showing this letters because i want to have the best signal that i can straight from the VCR, so i think the shakiness of the letters are showing me that something is wrong.
Thats what im trying to find out, if the shakiness is normal and what could i do to stabilize it, if its an incompatibility between capture card and vcr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BW37

3. It will be best to use s-video from the ES-10 to the TV Wonder 600 USB. That capture device does not have a good comb filter (if any at all) so using the ES-10 for passthrough has the added benefit of providing a decent comb filter to prevent some composite capture problems like dot crawl.

im trying to get a new VCR, anyway i heard that ES-10 europe has a brightness problem with s-video output signal and its recommended to use SCART only. Do you know anything about this? im sticking to composite until i have a better VCR.

[BW37]

I've also heard of the brightness problem with the ES-10's but can't help you there other than to suggest that it might also be a problem with composite out unless you know specifically that it is not. My guess is that all of the testing was done with s-video both in and out since that is the preferred signal path for the best captures. Composite is usually just ignored by those looking for the best captures.

It's also possible that there is no brightness problem with the s-video out IF you are using composite in. I just don't think that has been tested much if at all. But this is speculation on my part...

Regarding the shaky text: Do you see this when you view the VCR output directly on a TV? If not, maybe there's nothing wrong with the VCR and it's just that your capture device cannot handle the menu screen output but the ES-10 (and your TV) can. As I said, these "screens" are often not true, compatible NTSC or PAL signals and can mess with A/D conversion (capture or otherwise) which is designed around valid signals.

A better SVHS VCR is always a good plan in any case!

BW

[Geremias]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BW37

I've also heard of the brightness problem with the ES-10's but can't help you there other than to suggest that it might also be a problem with composite out unless you know specifically that it is not. My guess is that all of the testing was done with s-video both in and out since that is the preferred signal path for the best captures. Composite is usually just ignored by those looking for the best captures.

It's also possible that there is no brightness problem with the s-video out IF you are using composite in. I just don't think that has been tested much if at all. But this is speculation on my part...

Regarding the shaky text: Do you see this when you view the VCR output directly on a TV? If not, maybe there's nothing wrong with the VCR and it's just that your capture device cannot handle the menu screen output but the ES-10 (and your TV) can. As I said, these "screens" are often not true, compatible NTSC or PAL signals and can mess with A/D conversion (capture or otherwise) which is designed around valid signals.

A better SVHS VCR is always a good plan in any case!

BW

i do see it shaking text a little bit in my tv, but i see it worst on my capture card.
i´ll try to add samples of es-10 captures.
i will try to get a better vcr, svhs is difficult to get in my country. Also may run tests with s-video out from es-10 and see if looks better than comosite.

thanks for your answer!

[aramkolt]

Huh. Seems to be a crazy amount of chroma noise on that last sample in the direct playback there. With the ES10, it seems to be adding a sort of screen door effect where there are very fine evenly spaced vertical lines. Could be a problem with your specific ES10, or others here might chime in to note if that is a known issue. I will say that ES10's do have SMT capacitors on their digital board and almost all of mine were bad before I recapped it, though I didn't notice any actual image deficits prior to the recap. For me, SMTs in that era are a "replace on site" type of item, but most people will only look at the power supply caps which do tend to show obvious physical signs like bulging or leaking if they are bad. Bad power supply caps could potentially cause that sort of image noise too, so would be worth opening up just to take a look at them.

I second the sentiment that the VCR blue screen is an interesting test for TBCs and capture cards, but there are some TBCs/capture cards that will freeze on the blue screen, but work fine the moment real video starts playing, so the conclusions that can be drawn from that don't necessarily have real-world applications. It's a bonus if the card can handle the blue screen, but I don't think it's a necessity. The test can vary a little from VCR to VCR as to how it generates the blue screen since it isn't a completely standardized NTSC signal oddly enough as BW37 mentioned.

[Geremias]

Thanks Aramkolt for your answer!

i believe that the vertical lines you see with es10 are already in the original. You can see them in the direct playback sample, only that they are kind of disguize (and more zig zag looking) by the other chroma noise and more saturated colors. ES10 make the colors more uniform so image is perceibed clearer, but i dont think it adds new noise or vertical lines (sorry i dont know the exact terms).

This chroma noise and vertical lines im trying to figure it out if they get better with a better VCR.

Consider that this is a VHS that is a copy of the original VHSC tape (that got erased), so some errors could have got made in the copying process.

So there are 3 possible sources of the noise:
1- from the original VHSC camera (jvc JR-ax10)
2- noise added in the copying process to vhs tape (bonus the aging of the tape)
3- noise made by the current VCR, capture card, cables, interferences or incompatibilities..

im trying to fix number 3 since number 1 and 2 cant be fixed.

Do you know where the noise and vertical lines could come from?

i should start a new thread posting my captures, but first i will try to get a new vcr and run new tests..

[lordsmurf]

Never test on generated video. Misleading, both ways (false positive, false negative).

ES10/15 type is not a TBC replacement, or a TBC. It's a DVD recorder with strong+crippled line TBC and non-TBC frame sync. It has multiple issues, and those can vary between PAL and NTSC too. It's a budget option, but you get what you pay for.

ES10/15 has a nasty AGC at times, easily seen at boot.
The bright/overexposure/luma issue is mostly PAL, but NTSC is not entirely accurate either.

ES10/15 is best only used for times where net outcome is better video.
Meaning ES10/15 flaws + benefits = better video.
That equation often does not = better video. There are many times where the output is worse to suggested methods. But if all you have is lower-end gear, then you're stuck, that is "best" (relative, not absolute).

You 3 posting above may know some/all of this (or not), but mostly posting for posterity for future readers. When the ES10/15 is discussed, these aspect need also be known.