Playing VHS tape: TV vs. capture card?

[Gary34]

Even though I like my 1980 that tgrant refurbed. Deter is the king of the 1980s according to most everyone. There opinions are more valid then mine because i barely use my Panasonic. We are soo far off subject though.

[guyburns]

I have packed all my gear away until the Panasonic DMR ES15 arrives, but I had kept some of the test captures, attached. The "Sobolewski" captures, in ProRes Proxy at ~5mbps, are from a home movie made in 1987. A friend who has loaned me his PC laptop, did so if I captured his one and only VHS tape. "Raiders", in ProRes 422HQ at ~50mbps, is from a commercial VHS. Both are PAL.

Both these tapes play nicely on TV. No artifacts whatsoever. But, the Sobolewski is unwatchable when captured, yet the Raiders one is quite okay. Same setup in every case, but I ran the Sobolewski captures at a lower bit rate.

VCR: JVC HR S6960 connected via S-video to…
Capture unit: AJA Io LA connected via Firewire 800 to…
Computer: 2011 iMac, running under Snow Leopard using AJA's VJR Xchange

Sobolewski 01 is before the video starts. Everything should be black, but we have a green flash.

Sobolewski 02 is at the start of the video, taken on a wobbly tripod. It has one weird flash.

Sobolewski 03 is a nasty piece of work. Puts me of capturing at home, I can tell you that much.

Raiders: a nice piece of work, ProRes 422HQ at 10 bit.

The Raiders capture came before the Sobolewski captures, and I didn't go back to check that Raiders still captured okay. Maybe the AJA suffered a serious fault inside during the Sobolewski captures.

I still don't get it:

• All my 20 or so tapes, PAL and NTSC, play nicely on TV. So the problems don't lie with the tapes.
• My setup can capture data rates of at least 60mbps (the "Raiders" capture), so the "Sobolewski" problem cannot be explained away as a data transfer problem – because they run at only 5mbps. In addition, the exact same AJA unit, running on a similar iMac and similar software, has succesfully captured "Raiders", in Melbourne, at uncompressed rates.

-- merged --

I've just imported the Sobolewski video into Premiere to have a look. I've never bothered with Properties before, but there's a wealth of info there:

File Path: /Volumes/TSB USB DRV/T.mov
Type: QuickTime Movie
File Size: 120.7 MB
Image Size: 720 x 576
Frame Rate: 25.00
Total Duration: 00:01:57:08
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.0940

QuickTime Details:
Movie contains 1 video track(s), 0 audio track(s) and 1 timecode track(s).

Video:
This movie appears to have DROPPED FRAMES.
There are 2246 frames with a duration of 1/25th.
There is 1 frame with a duration of 3/25ths.
There are 4 frames with a duration of 4/25ths.
There are 4 frames with a duration of 1/5th.
There are 3 frames with a duration of 6/25ths.
There are 3 frames with a duration of 7/25ths.
There is 1 frame with a duration of 8/25ths.
There are 6 frames with a duration of 9/25ths.
There are 7 frames with a duration of 2/5ths.
There are 10 frames with a duration of 11/25ths.
There are 10 frames with a duration of 12/25ths.
There are 2 frames with a duration of 13/25ths.
There are 2 frames with a duration of 22/25ths.
There is 1 frame with a duration of 23/25ths.
There is 1 frame with a duration of 1/second.
There is 1 frame with a duration of 57/25ths.
There is 1 frame with a duration of 72/25ths.

Video track 1:
Duration is 0:01:57:08
Average frame rate is 19.64 fps

Video track 1 contains 1 type(s) of video data:

Video data block #1:
Frame Size = 720 x 576
Compressor = Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy)
Quality = Most (5.00)

Timecode:
Timecode track 1 contains 1 type(s) of data:

Timecode data block #1:
Start Time = 00:00:00:00
Reel name = 001

[lordsmurf]

#1 The green flash is the capture card failing/glitching, possibly the software, nothing to do with any VCR/TBC. That has nothing to do with the incoming signal, that's entirely internal to the card/computer.

#2 The "weird flash" is a glitched frame, and again it's from the capture card. Not software. And it may be induced by lack of frame TBC, but not as likely.

#3 You're dropping frame, duping frames, and the card is freaking out. Again, fault of card, unknown if due to lack of TBCs.

You may have a bad capture card on your hands. At very least, touchy.

[ahmed12h]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

Digital has benefits over analog.
1. Digital can be easily copied over into more copies with no loss because it is just computer data. This is what happens when you copy VHS to another VHS. https://youtu.be/nqy_hYDI0As?si=ErCTr93oEPhtbUP7

Wow, I really countered many tapes with same symptoms, and I did many things from buying another
VCR or buying different capture card or do some restoration . But I can understand what was the reason for that.

It is alllllll about how VHS tape was recorded

[latreche34]

Notice in that youtube video, not only RF signal gets weak and RF noise increases, Line timing starts to drift off as mechanical inaccuracies get compounded over generations. It will be interesting to see the same experiment with a VCR equipped with line TBC to see how far it can maintain decent line timing.

[Gary34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Notice in that youtube video, not only RF signal gets weak and RF noise increases, Line timing starts to drift off as mechanical inaccuracies get compounded over generations. It will be interesting to see the same experiment with a VCR equipped with line TBC to see how far it can maintain decent line timing.

I bet it’s not nearly as bad on a restored Panasonic 1980p ag or something like that. LS pointed out that it was exaggerated.

[latreche34]

I've seen a similar video on YT before and the artifacts are similar, In that video they skipped few copies to get the completely noisy picture at the end, the video would be too long to show every copy.

[mrmuy97]

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

The "Sobolewski" captures, in ProRes Proxy at ~5mbps
[...] I ran the Sobolewski captures at a lower bit rate

Oh no. For the purpose of high-quality results, VHS ProRes hardware capture should absolutely never be done at anything less than 422HQ.

Why did you choose to use Proxy for capturing anything??

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

My setup can capture data rates of at least 60mbps (the "Raiders" capture), so the "Sobolewski" problem cannot be [...] a data transfer problem – because they run at only 5mbps.

Correct, it is not even remotely close to a data transfer issue.

But we already know this because the hardware required in order to run the software you're using is already capable of data rates many times faster than 60Mbps in the first place. You'd have to dig out a fossil to find a machine that could choke on 8MB/s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

the exact same AJA unit, running on a similar iMac and similar software, has succesfully captured "Raiders", in Melbourne, at uncompressed rates.

Different capture computer + different versions of capture software = a number of variables

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

Maybe the AJA suffered a serious fault inside during the Sobolewski captures.

Looks like the issue didn't happen "during" that capture -- It was obvious from the very beginning (i.e. before tape was even playing). Possible that it had a hardware malfunction coincidentally in between the two captures. Not likely though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

"Sobolewski" captures [...] are from a home movie made in 1987
All my 20 or so tapes, PAL and NTSC, play nicely on TV. So the problems don't lie with the tapes.
Both these tapes play nicely on TV. No artifacts whatsoever. But, the Sobolewski is unwatchable when captured

Correct, you can tell from the capture of the 2nd & 3rd examples that that portion of tape looks to be in good condition, but your capture workflow after the VCR clearly has one or more issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

Capture unit: AJA Io LA connected via Firewire 800

If you're going to stick with that, I'd open it up and at the least do a recap for the power circuitry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

until the ES15 arrives

And an immediate power board recap on that as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

VCR: JVC HR S6960 connected via S-video

Does that PAL model have a line TBC?
Assuming you have the ES15 by now, turn VCR line TBC off (if equipped) when using.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

Sobolewski 01 is before the video starts. Everything should be black, but we have a green flash.
Sobolewski 02 is at the start of the video, taken on a wobbly tripod. It has one weird flash.
Sobolewski 03 is a nasty piece of work. Puts me of capturing at home, I can tell you that much.

Sub-optimal workflows with issues will tend to make you feel that way as wasted time increases and results remain frustratingly bad.

Address in the following order:

1. No surprise, home video, need something to help stabilize between VCR / capture device
-- you state ES15 will be added for this purpose --
2. ES15 may need/ want recap work
3. Io box may need/ want recap work

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

This movie appears to have DROPPED FRAMES.

Signal not clean/ steady enough for Io to lock on. See #1 above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

At very least, touchy.

Agreed, needs help between Io and VCR to capture his consumer tapes. See how/ if ES15 helps and go from there.

[Gary34]

Quote:

Different capture computer + different versions of capture software = a number of variables

Guyburns lives in Australia. Servese43 lives in Australia. This is a great option for both people I think. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mar...apture-pc.html

300 dollars is a steal on that capture computer and the card.

[mrmuy97]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

300 dollars is a steal on that capture computer and the card.

Agreed. Anyone in AU in need of a quality capture setup is crazy to not take that deal.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmuy97

Agreed. Anyone in AU in need of a quality capture setup is crazy to not take that deal.

Agree.

That's what the marketplace is for! Community members connecting with others community members, to get the gear we need. It's not random Facebook/eBay junk, but things we actually used, or refurb'd, or both. And sometimes we have great deals!