Distorted rolling image PAL VHS tape issue?

[Traderbam]

Hi, I have been trying some test captures with new TBC from LS in the loop.

VCR - Philips VR1100 (JVC clone), TBC is AVT clone, using USB-Live card.

What is the effect/issue in this sample clip? Should this be resolved by a TBC? My deck is a Philips VR1100 and I've tried various combinations of DSPC on/off and VCR TBC/NR on/off with no change to behaviour. The TBC is an AVT-8710 clone. Is this an unavoidable tape issue?

Secondly, I have a new Pinnacle USB-710 (from LS recently) and in a number of test captures the video will freeze, but the audio capture continues in the background, with the video eventually resuming. I don't have the same issue on the same tape with a Hauppage USB-Live2. Any suggestions for diagnosing?

Thanks

-- merged --

Would appreciate any help/guidance on this one. Thanks.

[aramkolt]

Looks like a couple of things going on there. The vertical roll would most likely be fixed by a frame TBC (but that's odd because you have one that is supposed to work), but it also looks like there's a lot of line dropouts with the dropout compensator of the VCR repeating a lot of lines in a sort of blurry way. It also appears that there's no line TBC in use as each scan line does not start at the same place on the left side of the images. Your VCR should have a line TBC if I'm looking it up correctly. I guess the other potential issue is that you could be using a PAL tape on an NTSC machine or vice versa and that might cause something like that.

Mistracking of the VCR or camcorder it was recorded on could be playing a part in this, though I don't think that usually causes vertical roll. The vertical roll being there kind of allows you to see the "sync pulses" that are usually out of frame and they seem quite poorly defined here.

This also looks like it might be a second generation tape meaning it isn't the original recording of the event, and any sort of time base errors on the original would get baked in and not really correctable.

I have seen video reproduction like this where the video head drum was not tightened down to the rest of the chassis which I thought was a kind of interesting way to produce time base errors, but that's pretty unlikely to be what's going on here.

Does the machine do that with all tapes such as with commercial releases, or is it just that tape specifically?

I haven't really run into a tape with sticky-shed syndrome or mold that does that, but I could see that potentially causing something similar if you've done everything else correctly. That, or the VCR itself has a problem, but again, that would be evidenced by other tapes also not working in it that are known to work well on other VCRs.

If you're in the USA, I'd be happy to see if any of my variety of TBC containing VCRs and frame TBCs do any better with this tape and I'd capture it for you for free. That assumes the tape is recorded as NTSC, since I don't have any PAL/SECAM VCRs.

[Traderbam]

Yes I have both line TBC on the VCR and frame TBC in the loop. I suspect it may be more to do with the tape. The recording was recorded from a camcorder onto the VHS tape. Is that often the source of baking in timing errors which can't be fixed? The tape is a PAL tape, I don't have issues with other tapes on the same gear of the few I've tried so far.

I'll try a few rewinds of the tape to see if it helps the potential "sticky" problem but it wasn't mouldy and general playback was fine in other areas of the tape.

Any thoughts on the Pinnacle card issue?

[Gary34]

Quote:

I have a new Pinnacle USB-710 (from LS recently) and in a number of test captures the video will freeze, but the audio capture continues in the background, with the video eventually resuming. I don't have the same issue on the same tape with a Hauppage USB-Live2. Any suggestions for diagnosing?

Does Virtualdub say that frames are being dropped or inserted? How does the footage look on playback?

[aramkolt]

Must have missed that last part - Are you saying the capture is completely fine with the Hauppage Live2 with the same VCR/tape and capture chain other than the Pinnacle710? If so, that basically points to an issue with the Pinnacle 710.

[Gary34]

Every time I’ve had an issue and went on here with a question the answer was actually something simple I overlooked and I was assuming it was something bigger in the beginning and jumping to conclusions.
I thought my TBC was messed up because of a black and white picture. In reality it was either a bad cord or the cord just not being plugged in all the way.
I thought my TBCs were making a green tint on my video. Really I wasn’t on unity with my proc amp and my capture card wasn’t on 0.
I’ve haven’t had any real issues since I started this method. It’s been smooth. It’s just learning. So far. Fingers crossed.

I’m not trying to get off subject I’m just saying it’s important to look at the real simple stuff when you are trouble shooting.
Something being wrong with that card is less likely.
My video preview will pause sometimes but i don’t have dropped or inserted frames unless I have have my audio preview turned on to where I can hear it during capture. Then it will insert frames unless you are on a really good XP capture computer. I capture in windows 10 so I can’t preview audio while capturing on a Pinnacle 710 without it inserting frames even though I have a good frame TBC.

Here are the correct timing settings for that card incase that’s an issue. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...ure-stops.html

Aramkolt called all they really well about the PAL part and the 2nd gen. I wouldn’t mess with that PAL tape anymore though unless you make gear that supports PAL or send it to someone who does.

[latreche34]

It looks like the 2nd gen dub is not recorded correctly and the artifacts are baked in, There are ways of finding out if the errors are baked in, one of them is the pause trick, This is better done on a real TV, hit pause in the VCR and observe the behavior of the frame, If the artifact freezes with the frame you know it is baked in.

[Gary34]

Quote:

I'll try a few rewinds of the tape to see if it helps the potential "sticky" problem but it wasn't mouldy and general playback was fine in other areas of the tape.

What Aramkolt is talking about is sticky shed syndrome. If that’s really bad you can take your finger and touch it to the tape and it we’ll come off. You won’t be able to rewind it a few times if it has sticky shed syndrome. You’ll have tape particles all over your VCR. It would be a mess. If you have that then you would be looking at baking or something and using a cheap composite VCR for that transfer and just getting what you can then calling it good because you only get one shot to play that. They have a bunch of examples of that on YouTube.

I put my tapes in my crappy VCR first for just a little bit to make sure things are good then I put them in my good VCR get the levels set, put it back in my crap VCR, fast forward to end, rewind to beginning, take the tape out, let the tape set for 30 minutes to cool so it doesn’t stick to the heads, then put it in my good VCR and transfer.

-- merged --

I would keep an eye on the CPU usage on the right hand side of Vdub where your dropped frames counter and all that is. If your CPU usage gets around 50 percent then you can expect inserted frames but that is not an issue with your capture card or your TBC. That’s just saying your computer can’t keep up. I have 3.4 GHZ, a 720 rpm hard drive, and an SSD for the OS but windows 10 is the weak link in everything. I could install windows 7 on my computer if I wanted. My computer isn’t new enough to where that would be a problem. I would just get one of these https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/com...ation-top.html and another SSD so I would have 4 SSDs and a HDD. Im good for now though. My CPU usage stays around the singles and teens then sometimes goes into the 20s. I don’t have problems then. If I enable audio preview I can see my CPU usage start to get around the 50s and then is inserts frames.
I would make sure your antivirus is off. You can also go to task manager and click on Vdub to give it a higher priority. Then get rid of unnecessary things going on in the background. Obviously disconnect from the internet. Make sure it’s on preview also and not overlay.

[lordsmurf]

Assuming this isn't in the original recording (bad broadcast, bad camera), then this is a playback issues. Nothing to do with TBC or capture card -- though both may choke on this sort of (mis)playback. The tape is not moving across the drum properly.

You're compounding issues. Don't do that. You mention Pinnacle. With that same tape? With all tapes?
- If just this bad tape, then understand that awful playback still screws with TBCs and capture cards, because there's no signal to lock onto.
- If all tapes, then probably driver version/install issue.
But this tape issues is not a Pinnacle issues. Table that for now, and open a new topic later on it.

"fast forward then rewind" is horrible advice. That's how people lose memories/tapes/content. I've discussed "one and done" tapes before. If this tape is one of those, then you'll piss away your one chance to capture it. There will no longer be anything to play, then tape is ruined forever.

DIY baking tapes rarely ends well. Just pay somebody experienced if the tape matters, use SpecBros. Baking tapes is not even something that I attempt, as it can go wrong easily.

[timtape]

Because of the jumpy, rolling picture the highlighted detail might have been missed. As per the stillframe, the red circled area shows mistracking at the top of the picture. This problem may also be related to the rolling problem due to mistracking of the sync info on the tape.

I would first attempt to get a better tracking of that top section of the picture. It might resolve both problems in one hit.

But this is not simple front panel stuff. It would involve custom temporary (mis)adjustment probably of the VCR's internal P guide, most likely the entry P guide.

Most people dont attempt this. Please dont proceed unless you know what you are doing, including knowing how to return the guide to its standard setting.

[Traderbam]

Update on the frozen frame part of this problem. I thought I had solved this by selecting "link related streams" in Crossbar Thingy app but it seems that since I am using a new device, VirtualDub had reset compression settings so instead of using Huffyuv as I had been doing before, the setting was changed to no compression and was probably struggling to keep up in writing to disk.

Not sure if anyone else has seen that but it may be useful gotcha for others.

-- merged --

Capture card seems to be working well now with the correct configuration with no audio/sync issues and no frames dropped/inserted.

I reckon this sample is from a bad copy to tape. I don't know if this was one of the older camcorders that recorded to VHS tape or not, but other sections of the tape recorded from TV shows are fine.

Anything that can be done via scripting to fix the purple lines? They are very bad in sections to make the footage almost unwatchable.