BVTBC adds wavy diagonal lines?

[creampuffyness]

Hello everyone,
First post here, I hope I am doing this in the correct place. I recently bought a BVTBC and started poking around. I am seeing "noise" or "wavy lines" when the BVTBC is in my workflow. I have not messed with the chroma settings on it yet, which is why the blue in the pictures look different, I am not worried about that yet.

I have attached 2 pictures.
"withouttbc.jpg" shows a fairly solid blue screen.
"withtbc.jpg" shows wavy blue lines. Once again disregard the color difference for the moment.

My Workflow without TBC is: VCR -> Composite cables -> DMR ES15 -> SVideo cable -> GV-USB2
My Workflow with TBC is: VCR -> Composite cables -> DMR ES15 -> SVideo cable -> BVTBC -> SVideo cable -> GV-USB2

I can take some video if its helpful. I know people seem to have issue with BVTBC. My serial number is VT00802 if that helps identify anything.

Thank you for your help.

[lordsmurf]

Probably 99% of base BVTBC have noise, often extremely ugly.

The few that are "noise free" can be easily be affected by interferences in a typical home/apt/office, electrical line noise (using UPS?), or even the power grid itself (in which case you're just screwed, unless you move to a new area/state)

This is expected.

Where did it come from? Realize that 99%+ of all eBay-sold BV units are the common flawed or failed models, not the very specific versions that are suggested. (I've only sold two base BVs, ever, as B+ bargain units. That was years ago. I sometimes wonder how those have held up. Both were refurb'd at the board level. Not fun.)

[creampuffyness]

Unable to afford the recommended TBCs I saw this pop up on eBay and decided to try. Luckily the seller changed their return policy when I complained about no returns. The power supply is not stock, and I am not running it through a UPS at the moment, but I have one I could connect it to.
I had forgotten to mention that I tested all 3 SVideo cabled I have and got the same results at every connection. All fine without BVTBC, all noisy with it. I guess I have one or 2 more tests I can try before sending it back. Any other suggestions from anyone besides a UPS?

[lordsmurf]

I tried anything and everything, on multiple units. It's just inherent to the units. No QC, terrible product.

What did you pay for it?
(Wow, was that you that paid $1k for that? Way overpriced, given the known issues it has. Sellers have no concept of video gear pricing. They see $$$$ signs, not the gear. Most TBCs either have value, because good stuff good. Or almost no value, because bad stuff bad. There's not really a middle. I hope that's not the same "nightowl"/nightowl3090 on this site or Reddit, he should know better.)

Perhaps I have some alternate suggestions.
PAL or NTSC? Both? Neither?

[creampuffyness]

I am able to switch from PAL to NTSC on the unit.

[lordsmurf]

That wasn't my question. No amount of anything will fix that BV. Maybe it's just the PSU, but I doubt it. That's just more wasted time, wasted funds.

What I'm asking about is what your source tapes you have, so we can figure out a good alternative for you. Some are NTSC only, some PAL only, not as many do both.

What you realistic budget is. (Not the "I want a mansion for $2" budget.)

[Gary34]

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I am able to switch from PAL to NTSC on the unit.

Are your tapes PAL or NTSC?

[creampuffyness]

The current VCR is a Samsung VCR/DVD combo unit. I have a JVC HR-S9911u on its way. I'm hoping to eliminate the need for the DMR ES15 when it arrives. Everything I have is NTSC, I have no plans to work with PAL. Realistic budget for a TBC is under $1k which is why I wanted to see if the BVTBC would fit the need.

[creampuffyness]

I connected to a UPS and saw no difference. I again swapped every video cable just to verify I see the same results and I do. I see some TBCs for sale on eBay and here. Are the TBC-1000s considered better than the AVT-8710s? There is a LOT of threads regarding them, and sometimes the information I am reading directly conflicts the other information I am reading. I see information about green vs black AVT-8710s and its too much to keep track of.

[Gary34]

I think I see what you are looking at. The 1,400 dollar TBC 1000 on eBay or the 1,500 dollar AVT 8710 on the marketplace here.

Datavideo gear in general is having issues right now. Most people bypass the distribution amp on the TBC 1000s also.

-- merged --

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I see some TBCs for sale on eBay and here. Are the TBC-1000s considered better than the AVT-8710s? There is a LOT of threads regarding them, and sometimes the information I am reading directly conflicts the other information I am reading. I see information about green vs black AVT-8710s and its too much to keep track of.

The black AVTs are known bad units and aren’t really an option. In my opinion I would stay away from the TBC 1000 on eBay. I messaged that guy because I noticed I’ve seen that Parent Trap picture that he has on his listing. It isn’t a test image from the unit that he has listed. It’s an image from a different listing but he lied about it in his description and that the last image shows the unit in use. I had to call him out and tell him hey that image isn’t from that unit where is it from? He’s flipping TBC 1000s. You don’t get it till you call him out. The TBC 1000s already have a lot of issues. The have different generations too. I would trust LS’s refurbed AVT 8710 over an eBay refurbed TBC 1000 by sone random person any day of the week and I think all of the members here would. They are basically the same price too.

-- merged --

Here’s his description.

[lordsmurf]

Black AVT-8710 are flawed, period. These actually cause dropped frames, the opposite of intention.

DataVideo TBC-1000s are simply universally damaged in some way now, and require a refurb, with optional suggested bypass. I've done a few bypass, and a few refurbs. However, understand that bypass/refurb carries risk, even somebody skilled can have a bad outcome. So I refuse to pay big bucks for somebody else's overpriced untested gear (aka eBay "tested/working" gear). Lineage has become just as important as condition now, because you don't want something that was previously owned by a random idiot. It needs to pass through the hands of somebody reputable, not eBay/Facebook randoms.

Most of my TBCs are now sold/gone, only two are left at the moment. The unit you reference is now reserved. (When I post gear, it tends to go quickly.)

Some people insist on using eBay, which is just nuts to me. It's a flea market, full of random people, with random crap, in random condition. It's not some sort of trustworthy authority. And to what end? To attempt to save 10%-25% of money, but end up spending 200%+ in time? This person here has wasted how much time now? Sometimes I need to be blunt: "I'm capturing video right now. What are you doing?"

[RayNotes]

Based on the feedback you've gotten - this is a very long shot but easy enough to try: Make certain your TBC is not stacked on, or too close to your ES15. Try moving your TBC away from it.

The ES15 throws out RF interference that will disturb video and audio in some devices. From my tests, it looks more like a dirty head or "pit rot" on a Laserdisc than waves, but this suggestion is so easy to try, why not? Good luck.

[aramkolt]

I could try recapping this for you for a fee if you like, but hard to guarantee any results since I've not worked with that model and there aren't a lot of case reports to say what causes this issue in that model. You can get some noise patterns like that on AG1980's when the capacitors are bad inside of the VCR, so maybe it'd help here, hard to say.

[creampuffyness]

Quote:

Based on the feedback you've gotten - this is a very long shot but easy enough to try: Make certain your TBC is not stacked on, or too close to your ES15. Try moving your TBC away from it.

The ES15 throws out RF interference that will disturb video and audio in some devices. From my tests, it looks more like a dirty head or "pit rot" on a Laserdisc than waves, but this suggestion is so easy to try, why not? Good luck.

I will try one more time. I have a few things plugged into a power strip, not connect to the same power source as the TBC. Worth a shot

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I could try recapping this for you for a fee if you like, but hard to guarantee any results since I've not worked with that model and there aren't a lot of case reports to say what causes this issue in that model. You can get some noise patterns like that on AG1980's when the capacitors are bad inside of the VCR, so maybe it'd help here, hard to say.

This was supposedly recapped in 2021.

Honestly the JVC HR-S9911U is doing such a great job by itself it has me rethinking the immediate need for a frame TBC.

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The black AVTs are known bad units and aren’t really an option. In my opinion I would stay away from the TBC 1000 on eBay.

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Black AVT-8710 are flawed, period. These actually cause dropped frames, the opposite of intention.

DataVideo TBC-1000s are simply universally damaged in some way now, and require a refurb, with optional suggested bypass.

If they are all crap what the heck am I supposed to buy? Lol.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by creampuffyness

I have a few things plugged into a power strip, not connect to the same power source as the TBC.

"power strip" or UPS? Those pathetic strips (or even so-called "surge protectors") do nothing for protection. Either UPS, or you're endangering your gear, as well as getting dirty uneven power.

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This was supposedly recapped in 2021.

The ES15 that you bought?

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Honestly the JVC HR-S9911U is doing such a great job by itself it has me rethinking the immediate need for a frame TBC.

It has only line TBC, no frame TBC.

To use a crass analogy: line TBC is a rubber, frame TBC is the pill. Your partner (VHS) is dirty. Without both, you risk STD, or crotch goblins. In video terms, unstable image, chroma noise, dropped frames, audio sync errors, etc.

Without both, you take risks. In almost all cases, the person does not notice defects until it's too late. Then it's baked in errors, and you're screwed. Or redo the project, if you can.

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If they are all crap what the heck am I supposed to buy? Lol.

Well, you've pigeonholed yourself into a substandard budget for it. The general advice is to buy it, use it, the resell it. Quality gear holds value, junk is your forever. If not break-even on resale, any difference is either the de facto rental fees, or even a profit.

Another crass analogy: You've decided to eat Mexican food, but your budget only allows for Taco Bell (and let's not even get into how it's not Mexican food at all). Gourmet leaves you satisfied, Taco Bell gives you butt squirts. The different outcomes are solely based on the willingness to spend funds needed to get what you want. At least unlike food, you can resell gear.

Right now, you're hoping for the inverse of "greater fool theory". You're hoping somebody dumb sells you a good TBC for less than it's worth. And you shun TBCs that are market valued. That's just the reality of the situation. So you can either try/hope (and good luck to you), or you can just buy a known-good TBC and get down to the actual capturing.

Some people dislike my bluntness on TBC matters, but I'm not always in the mood to tippie-toe around feelings. I get it. You don't want to buy stuff. Been there, done that, had to deal with the consequences. You can either learn from my errors (and the errors of many others), or you can choose to find out on your own (FAFO).

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I could try recapping this for you for a fee if you like, but hard to guarantee any results since I've not worked with that model and there aren't a lot of case reports to say what causes this issue in that model. You can get some noise patterns like that on AG1980's when the capacitors are bad inside of the VCR, so maybe it'd help here, hard to say.

Re-capping will have zero effect on base BVTBC. It's engineering/manufacturing flaws.

[creampuffyness]

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"power strip" or UPS? Those pathetic strips (or even so-called "surge protectors") do nothing for protection. Either UPS, or you're endangering your gear, as well as getting dirty uneven power.

APC UPS

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The ES15 that you bought?

No, the BVTBC

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It has only line TBC, no frame TBC.

To use a crass analogy: line TBC is a rubber, frame TBC is the pill. Your partner (VHS) is dirty. Without both, you risk STD, or crotch goblins. In video terms, unstable image, chroma noise, dropped frames, audio sync errors, etc.

Without both, you take risks. In almost all cases, the person does not notice defects until it's too late. Then it's baked in errors, and you're screwed. Or redo the project, if you can.

I understand the need for the frame TBC. The ES15 was a stop-gap until I got a quality VHS with line TBC while looking for a frame TBC. I have read many many threads regarding this.

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Well, you've pigeonholed yourself into a substandard budget for it. The general advice is to buy it, use it, the resell it. Quality gear holds value, junk is your forever. If not break-even on resale, any difference is either the de facto rental fees, or even a profit.

Unfortunately $2200 isnt in the budget at the moment. The BVTBC is going back (thankfully i had the seller agree to returns before buying).

But to my point above about "everything is crap".

Most posts saying "buy the TBC-1000". The next posts say they are all flawed. "AVT-8710 works great!". Next post says they are all garbage. Difficult to believe much of anything unless I see it for myself, and I won't be able to get my hands on one for awhile.

[aramkolt]

Only downside to this one is that it is composite only, but it's a good price. Just add a 12V power adapter.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/196900863860

If I was you, I'd do a capture of the same content directly from the VCR with Composite and S-Video without any TBC inline. If you can't tell the difference between the two for the content you are capturing, then it should be ok to use a composite setup on a budget with that content.

A perfect frame TBC will be completely transparent oustide of perhaps correcting some vertical jitter. They can make images worse however in some cases as you've discovered. There's some slight losses when you convert analog to digital, hold a couple frames/fields in a buffer, then release them at a digitally precise rate converted back to analog which is all a frame TBC really does.

The BE5 there uses 12 bit DACs and ADCs, so on paper, it should outperform any of the recommended TBCs (which are only 8 bit) color/artifact-wise, it just lacks S-Video which the recommended TBCs do have which is better, all else being equal. How good composite will look will depend on on your capture card's comb filter, but S-Video is technically superior on paper always due to never having luma and chroma mixed into composite. Brigheye does make S-Video capable TBCs, but they tend to go for a lot on the rare occasion they show up for sale, though still sell for less than the recommended TBCs. The S-Video input TBCs they have all output SDI as well, so you'd need an SDI capture card that can capture 480i if you went that route.

Latreche34 here uses a BE75 for his youtube channel here, and that does accept S-Video which is what he uses as the input.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvyDHWuLXg0

Brand new BE75's are still sold and less expensive than the $2200 you mentioned at around $1400 I think.

....but the BE5 linked above at 1/10th the price may be easier to justify as a trial item and doesn't require you to change your capture card. I don't think you'll have trouble reselling the BE5 either to break even at less than $150 shipped if you don't like it.

I've also never seen a direct comparison showing a BE5 to be inferior in a real life example to a properly working TBC-1000 or AVT-8710 to show visual inferiority.

I also think the For.A TBCs are underrated and overlooked, but the ones with S-Video inputs don't come up for sale at reasonable prices that often either.

Just my $0.02, can be wrong, my experience may differ from others, just throwing other ideas out there.

[creampuffyness]

Interesting. Thank you for the info aramkolt. I've never heard of this before. I would prefer to keep an video workflow all the way if possible. I got this JVC HR-S9911u only a few days ago, and honestly I haven't even tested the composite output as I had a queue of tapes to jump into and was very pleased with the results so far. This gives me another avenue (rabbithole) to go down.

[Gary34]

Quote:

my experience may differ from others

Out of curiosity how did those TBCs you mentioned perform compared to your TBC 1000?

On your testing I wonder how much of an impact your Panasonic 1980p ag and capture card will have on your testing of frame TBCs. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...s-fa-310p.html

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I've also never seen a direct comparison showing a BE5 to be inferior in a real life example to a properly working TBC-1000 or AVT-8710 to show visual inferiority

Did you do a comparison when you were getting your experience with these TBCs?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

Did you do a comparison when you were getting your experience with these TBCs?

A lot of so-called "tech reviews" are so ridiculous these days.

Story time: When it comes to cars, I'm unusual. In my entire life, I've only bought 2 cars for myself. Both were bought new. And I still have both. #1 is approaching 30 years old, #2 is now 10 years old. I still have #1 because it works, and every use means less miles/wear on #2, though local driving only. And #2 is my childhood dream/muscle car (sort of), pristine, still turns heads. When it comes to how each acts, operates, I know them inside-out. I'm not even a car guy, I just know my 2 vehicles. How each reacts to wet, cold, heat. How the brakes and accelerator react, and at which gear/speeds. I intimately know both the pros and cons of each. They are tools to get me from A to B, with a little style in #2.

TBCs really are no different. I've used most TBCs for 10/20/30 years now. I know how those will react to various situations. And although I do get surprised from time to time, both positively and negatively, it not that often (once per year?).

So when a person says "I tested it" or "I used it", and then comes to a quick conclusion, I just have to roll my eyes.

With car #1, I have 100k's of miles, and #2 has 10k's.
- The main detractors of car #1 are/were those who wrongly assumed it was "the same" as the wimpy base model. (Probably 100% of the base models were long ago scrapped, but my model is sometimes still seen on the road.)
- The main detractors of car #2 are/were mostly just jealous. They don't want to put it the time to make it happen, and are only interested in instant gratification. And/or they blow their money on stupid BS. (GenX was the "save up for it" generation?)

There's a lot of overlap with TBCs. Too many wrong assumption out there, too much griping about the not-unreasonable costs (especially given "buy it, use it, resell it").

With TBCs, I have probably just as many K's of tapes fed into them (both directly, and indirectly), and I have K's of miles on the cars. I don't know everything, and I openly state it. Some people know nothing, and pretend to be an expert on Youtube/wherever.

So when somebody tells me it was "tested" with a dozen hours .... pffft, HAHAHA! No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by creampuffyness

APC UPS

APC and Cyberpower are designed/engineered differently, and APC is inferior for AV gear. Noise leaks into signals. In the 2010s, I lost all of my APCs when the power company switched to that new "smart" metering method that sent a signal through the power lines. (The power company reimburse me for all of them, and admitted fault.)

For testing only, I hesitantly suggest bypassing the APC UPS. Eliminate it as a variable.

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Unfortunately $2200 isnt in the budget at the moment. The BVTBC is going back (thankfully i had the seller agree to returns before buying).

There are good option in the $1k range, it just requires a little patience to locate one that functions correctly. (Which, of course, can be hard to do as a newbie, buying used gear from random recyclers/resellers on eBay. As you have learned first-hand, with a bad BVTBC that was not "working" or "tested" as claimed. Par for the course.)

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But to my point above about "everything is crap".
Most posts saying "buy the TBC-1000". The next posts say they are all flawed. "AVT-8710 works great!". Next post says they are all garbage. Difficult to believe much of anything unless I see it for myself, and I won't be able to get my hands on one for awhile.

Most "buy the DataVideo TBC-1000" posts are outdated, and were made before the mass failure we've seen with those units. Sometimes literally decades before. I made many posts pre-2005 about how well the TBC-1000s worked -- and they did at that time!

AVT-8710 was the same. It was one of the best units in the 2000s.
- Then the 08-09 recession harmed the tech industry, and suddenly the semiconductors/chips needed were no longer fabbed. So Cypress used other chips, and those were flawed. The models actually caused timing issues! This was the "black" generation, and that crap is all over eBay, sold by people that have zero clue.
- The good green models have largely failed, due to cheap construction that trapped heat during use. Over the decades, heat damage has been cumulative. So you have to be really careful buying this model. eBay sellers are idiots when it comes to these, so don't trust anything they claim.

Both of those TBCs can still be quite excellent, but condition matters, where/who you buy it from matters. You can't just random buy online, and expect it to be perfect. It's not a new item from stores/Amazon.

I've put out some inquiries to my contacts, to see if I can locate a decent $1k unit for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Only downside to this one is that it is composite only, but it's a good price.

It's a great price, but a poor value, given all the "hidden costs" (both time and money) that are involved with it. A can of dog food for $1 is equally a good price, but a terrible value in terms of me having a healthy dinner.

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A perfect frame TBC will be completely transparent oustide of perhaps correcting some vertical jitter.

Correct. Transparency, and with some ability to correct laymen jitter (up-down bouncing, not to be confused with jargon "jitter").

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There's some slight losses when you convert analog to digital,

This is so vastly overstated that I'm almost tired of reading it. It's misleading as stated. When I wash my hands, I remove some skin cells. I don't run around saying "OMG, my new soap ripped off my skin!!!" Everything has losses, even digital has losses. The key is how much, how perceptible -- ie the transparency. Sometimes "loss" is good, too (depends on context, how, where, why).

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hold a couple frames/fields in a buffer, then release them at a digitally precise rate converted back to analog which is all a frame TBC really does.

There's more going on, but that is the basics.

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The BE5 there uses 12 bit DACs and ADCs, so on paper, it should outperform any of the recommended TBCs (which are only 8 bit) color/artifact-wise,

Bits doesn't mean as much as you keep implying. How you use it matters more than how big it is. (Yes, pun intended. ) Bits was a lot like megapixels in the 2000s, pure measurbating by marketing depts to make it seem better than it really was. More existed, but how well were those used, if at all?

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it just lacks S-Video which the recommended TBCs do have which is better, all else being equal. How good composite will look will depend on on your capture card's comb filter, but S-Video is technically superior on paper always due to never having luma and chroma mixed into composite.

Correct, composite isn't bad. Implementations of composite are almost always bad. But not all. Some devices, including TBCs, handle composite quite cleanly, with minimal artifacts. Certain composite TBCs are suggested, and in that ~$1k range (+/-), what I consider budget TBCs. Sadly, the best Cypress composite units are also failing, and I have two failed units in my attic.

@aramkolt, I've been tempted to send you some of my non-functioning units several times, since you have interest in repair and testing. However, my fear is that you'll approach it with pre-conceived notions, or make hasty conclusions, essentially using my own gear against me with conflicting "advice" (as you are verbose, and sometimes too hastily). I have observed a proper mellowing in past months, but it needs to be more.

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Latreche34 here uses a BE75 for his youtube channel here, and that does accept S-Video which is what he uses as the input.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvyDHWuLXg0
Brand new BE75's are still sold and less expensive than the $2200 you mentioned at around $1400 I think.
....but the BE5 linked above at 1/10th the price may be easier to justify as a trial item and doesn't require you to change your capture card. I don't think you'll have trouble reselling the BE5 either to break even at less than $150 shipped if you don't like it.
I've also never seen a direct comparison showing a BE5 to be inferior in a real life example to a properly working TBC-1000 or AVT-8710 to show visual inferiority.

It's just a different method, with different pros/cons (weaknesses). latreche34 has a genre to his captures, and it's worked for him. Others may not get those same results. In fact, I'd suggest it, given the high variability in home tapes. I've never liked the closed-loop SDI method, it's too proprietary(ish) for my needs. But I do have some.

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I also think the For.A TBCs are underrated and overlooked, but the ones with S-Video inputs don't come up for sale at reasonable prices that often either.

Transparency is the issue. Quite a few of the composite model FA's also have caps issues that burst open on the board. So it's not just a recap job, but a board clean job. I agree, then can be great. Or not.

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Just my $0.02, can be wrong, my experience may differ from others, just throwing other ideas out there.

Always appreciated.

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Originally Posted by creampuffyness

Interesting. Thank you for the info aramkolt. I've never heard of this before. I would prefer to keep an video workflow all the way if possible. I got this JVC HR-S9911u only a few days ago, and honestly I haven't even tested the composite output as I had a queue of tapes to jump into and was very pleased with the results so far. This gives me another avenue (rabbithole) to go down.

When you start to get into budget gear, you really need to consider the source. So:

- How many tapes?
- If any VHS, what recording mode are your VHS tapes? SP, LP, EP/SLP, or a mix? If mix, % of each? If not known, guestimate. (What you don't want to do is put these tapes in a ratty old VCR, and have the tapes get damaged.)
- What % of your collection is from a camcorder, a VCR, and retail?
- What era are your tapes from, % of each? 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s?
- Are you aware of any problems with the tapes? Either with the signal, or physical? (mold, etc)

You don't want to add problems for yourself with wrong/bad/cheap equipment. Or if you do, keep it in moderation. Otherwise you'll just give up before finishing. I've seen that far too many times over the years. Don't make it harder on yourself. Because then you'll waste all your time farting around with gear, and not simply using it to convert your videos. The videos matter most, right?