Damaged Betamax tapes?

[alelazza]

Hello everyone

I have a Betamax SL-F1E and a Pioneer DVR-720H and i would like to capture 29 tapes.

While some are fine (see OK.mpg), other tapes while in play are very glitchy (see GLITCHES_1.mpg) while in some other tapes i am experiencing this other type of glitches while reproducing the tape (see GLITCHES_2.mpg).

In your opinion

• What are these issue due to?
• Is there anything i can do to solve these issues?
• Are the tapes irremediabely damaged?

I appreaciate any sort of opinion or advice

[aramkolt]

The distortions are rather cyclical, so my guess is that there's an alignment/curling of the tape going on or could be you need a new pinch roller.

Not sure on the SL-F1E, but Sony kind of picked a lame design that doesn't allow for just the rubber pinch roller to be exchanged on many machines, it's more of a module that has a metal housing that gets exchanged along with it. I haven't seen anyone actually swap the roller out of the full module, but perhaps that's possible with the right modification to it.

If it was me, I'd probably upgrade to a different player in the SL-HF line that can do superbeta and HiFi audio, though I can't say if your tapes are recorded that way.

[alelazza]

Hi, thanks for your answer

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

The distortions are rather cyclical, so my guess is that there's an alignment/curling of the tape going on or could be you need a new pinch roller.

Ok, if it is a curling of the tape kind of issue is there anything i can do?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

Not sure on the SL-F1E, but Sony kind of picked a lame design that doesn't allow for just the rubber pinch roller to be exchanged on many machines, it's more of a module that has a metal housing that gets exchanged along with it. I haven't seen anyone actually swap the roller out of the full module, but perhaps that's possible with the right modification to it.

Ok, i'll try to look into it and see if anybody has ever changed the rubber pinch roller on this kind of device and has published something about it

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

If it was me, I'd probably upgrade to a different player in the SL-HF line that can do superbeta and HiFi audio, though I can't say if your tapes are recorded that way.

Yeah right, the best idea would probably update the device.


Though i was watching again GLITCHES_1.mpg, given the regularity of the problem, might it be that the tape isn't moving at the correct speed with respect to the speed of the rotating heads? Is there anything i can do in your opinion?

[timtape]

Do the problems appear out of nowhere and then disappear? If so it could be previous tape damage.
Do some tapes play perfectly all the way through or for long stretches? If so that could be the machine is not in too bad condition.

How valuable are your recordings to you? My advice is, to test your VCR, only play known good but unimportant recordings. Dont use your valuable tapes to test your machine. This is "commonsense 101".

If at all possible try and find one of the remaining skilled service technicians to check your VCR, or seek to purchase another Betamax machine which has been recently and competently serviced. Later models are generally preferred. Glitch 2 suggests the audio is not HiFi type. For this audio you dont need a HiFi Betamax VCR.

[enois]

The quickest test would be to try the defective tapes with another VCR if you can find one, thus eliminating one of the two variables.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by enois

The quickest test would be to try the defective tapes with another VCR if you can find one, thus eliminating one of the two variables.

This is not wise. First test "another VCR" also with sound but unimportant tapes.
And know that not only can faulty VCR's damage tapes. Faulty tapes can damage VCR's.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Faulty tapes can damage VCR's.

Yes. A situation I was recently reminded of.

[alelazza]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Do the problems appear out of nowhere and then disappear?

No tipically for the tapes that have these sort of issues they have it along all the tape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Do some tapes play perfectly all the way through or for long stretches?

Yes, some do play perfectly all the way through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

My advice is, to test your VCR, only play known good but unimportant recordings.

Sure, that's what i did
Some tapes do play perfectly fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

If at all possible try and find one of the remaining skilled service technicians to check your VCR

I tried but apparently no one is in buisness anymore, atleast here in northern italy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

seek to purchase another Betamax machine which has been recently and competently serviced.

Well of course this is always an option, but since some tapes are playing just fine i was wondering if there was something i could do with the device that i have now to solve the problem

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Yes. A situation I was recently reminded of.

Happens to everyone soon or later ;(

Quote:

Originally Posted by enois

The quickest test would be to try the defective tapes with another VCR if you can find one, thus eliminating one of the two variables.

Sadly i don't know anyone that has a Betamax

[themaster1]

Apparently you have tapes that play just fine. Try the shell-swap, cost nothing & worth a shot.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

Apparently you have tapes that play just fine. Try the shell-swap, cost nothing & worth a shot.

Beware sticky shed and tape stretchability.

I recently did a VHS shell swap. It seemed fine during the swap, but on playback it damaged my deck. I next put it in a test/dev deck, for just 1s, and it started to jam it immediately.

The tape needs SpecBros. Not worth messing with.

[alelazza]

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1

Apparently you have tapes that play just fine. Try the shell-swap, cost nothing & worth a shot.

That was something i hadn't thought of. I'll try and let you know

[timtape]

Glitch 1 may be due to loss of control track. That could be due to tape damage, perhaps a longitudinal crease on the lower edge. I would carefully view the moving tape at that section for signs of damage. This assumes no other issues of course.

[alelazza]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

Glitch 1 may be due to loss of control track. That could be due to tape damage, perhaps a longitudinal crease on the lower edge. I would carefully view the moving tape at that section for signs of damage. This assumes no other issues of course.

Ok, i'll check while a tape is going (and eventually provide photos here)

[timtape]

The lower tape edge could also be stretched, looking like a wavy gathered curtain. These are usually caused by playing in a badly maintained VCR.

[keaton]

Other potential factors with Betamax that I've seen effect playback is recording speed, what part of the reel you are playing back (i.e. beginning, middle, end), and the flaps inside the shell.

It seems to be a function of tape condition and/or the mechanics of the machine, which are very complex due to the very long path the tape has to travel. I've seen more issues on Beta III (slowest speed) than Beta II. I've seen different picture edge/tracking problems as I go from start to middle to end of a tape, particularly with Beta III. Ideally, this shouldn't be a factor, but when dealing with such old equipment with a very complex design, it doesn't take much imperfection to cause undesired behavior.

The tabs or flaps or whatever you call them inside the shell that hold the tape against the metal or plastic spindle as the tape leaves or enters the shell can become too flimsy due to the glue breaking down. A real danger is a tab coming loose and getting into the machine and destroying the video head. Too tight or too flimsy can effect how the tape travels and cause either too much resistance or cause the tape to not remain steady enough when it enters the machine's tape path. I saw a YouTube on this once (sorry I don't have the link, but search around and try to find it), and he added some cleverly cut plastic reinforcements to better hold those tabs in place so they pressed evenly across the entire tape and didn't flap too much. If that helps, you can try swapping other reels into that modified shell.

[timtape]

Yes good points. I've had to remove, clean and reglue the flaps inside the shells. Yes everything is trickier the slower the tape speed. Everything, tape and machine must be in top condition.

[alelazza]

Quote:

Originally Posted by keaton

Other potential factors with Betamax that I've seen effect playback is recording speed, what part of the reel you are playing back (i.e. beginning, middle, end)

In my short experience, i noted this too

Quote:

Originally Posted by keaton

It seems to be a function of tape condition and/or the mechanics of the machine, which are very complex due to the very long path the tape has to travel. I've seen more issues on Beta III (slowest speed) than Beta II. I've seen different picture edge/tracking problems as I go from start to middle to end of a tape, particularly with Beta III. Ideally, this shouldn't be a factor, but when dealing with such old equipment with a very complex design, it doesn't take much imperfection to cause undesired behavior.

Thanks for the info! Fortunately these tapes seem to be all "Beta I" so at least i might avoid all the problems related to slower speeds

Quote:

Originally Posted by keaton

The tabs or flaps or whatever you call them inside the shell that hold the tape against the metal or plastic spindle as the tape leaves or enters the shell can become too flimsy due to the glue breaking down. A real danger is a tab coming loose and getting into the machine and destroying the video head. Too tight or too flimsy can effect how the tape travels and cause either too much resistance or cause the tape to not remain steady enough when it enters the machine's tape path. I saw a YouTube on this once (sorry I don't have the link, but search around and try to find it), and he added some cleverly cut plastic reinforcements to better hold those tabs in place so they pressed evenly across the entire tape and didn't flap too much. If that helps, you can try swapping other reels into that modified shell.

This is super interesting. I'll look forward to the video you said and i'll pay attention to this detail you highlighted. Thanks a lot!

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

The lower tape edge could also be stretched, looking like a wavy gathered curtain. These are usually caused by playing in a badly maintained VCR.

I've tried to make a detailed foto of the tape of GLITCH_2.mpg, seems bended. Is there anything i can do to recover it?

[keaton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alelazza

In my short experience, i noted this too

Thanks for sharing that! Glad to know it's not just me who's seen this.

Quote:

Thanks for the info! Fortunately these tapes seem to be all "Beta I" so at least i might avoid all the problems related to slower speeds

Excellent! That's a best case scenario!

Quote:

This is super interesting. I'll look forward to the video you said and i'll pay attention to this detail you highlighted. Thanks a lot!

You're welcome! Here's the video I was thinking of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwvf4LreaHE

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alelazza

I've tried to make a detailed foto of the tape of GLITCH_2.mpg, seems bended. Is there anything i can do to recover it?

Thanks for the photo. It looks like typical tape damage from playing in a faulty VCR. For whatever reason(s) the tape has ridden up hard against tape guides and become deformed. This damaged section is basically the audio track but the damage could also be affecting capture of the video signal close to it.

Also as the tape is now effectively narrower than the standard 12.65mm width, the VCR can no longer guide the tape correctly as intact tape edges are (or were) its only reference.

Also the tape appears to be bent away from the heads which is harder to deal with. Whereas when the tape bends towards the heads there's at least the chance it can be somewhat flattened into shape by the tape pressing against the heads and drum.

This could be a very tricky exercise to remedy and there's always the risk the attempts only makes things worse.

As usual, unfortunately prevention is better than cure.