SVHS to VHS DVD recorder for passthrough?

[MrCreosote]

Ran across a $20 Pioneer VHS DVD Recorder.

Since I have SVHS tapes, I haven't paid much attention to these machines because I got the impression you used them also for playing the VHS tapes to be captured.

But now faced with a $20 dea, can it be used for passthru from a SVHS deck?

For $20 I'll gamble it's a good machine.

[mts1]

Sure, you can, assuming your Pioneer supports pass-through mode.

[MrCreosote]

It's a Pioneer DVR-RT500 and judging from the prices on eBay, it's nothing special. $20 w/o remote.

But I did score an Epson Moviemate 30s for another $20. Never knew they made a unit that did all that

[latreche34]

Only few DVD recorders known to have line TBC during passthrough such as the Pana's ES10 and ES15, doesn't hurt to try though.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Only few DVD recorders known to have line TBC during passthrough such as the Pana's ES10 and ES15, doesn't hurt to try though.

I have two Pioneer HDD recorders, DVR 520H and DVR 530H. I didnt buy them for their passthrough effect but I discovered by using them that both straighten flagging. I mentioned this in an older previous thread. I suspect other major competing brands and models do the same. Just because one make or model is known by some to perform this function doesnt mean other makes and models dont.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtape

I have two Pioneer HDD recorders, DVR 520H and DVR 530H. I didnt buy them for their passthrough effect but I discovered by using them that both straighten flagging. I mentioned this in an older previous thread. I suspect other major competing brands and models do the same. Just because one make or model is known by some to perform this function doesnt mean other makes and models dont.

That's also PAL, which is known to have a few brands beyond NTSC's ES10/15 limitation.

- For "best quality for VHS" LSI-based JVC, LiteOn, etc -- does not.
- In NTSC, Pioneer, Philips, Magnavox, RCA, etc --- does not.
- Certain Toshiba do, but not anywhere as strong as Panasonic ES10/15 -- so do, but not equal.

PAL got lucky here.
PAL also is lucky with quality S-VHS VCRs for about half the price still, all things being equal. (NTSC has some cheap junk, but that's not I refer to.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

doesn't hurt to try though.

The problem here is most people don't know what they're looking at. So it can "hurt to try", in terms of the wallet, or in terms of the tape transfer quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrCreosote

Ran across a $20 Pioneer VHS DVD Recorder.
Since I have SVHS tapes, I haven't paid much attention to these machines because I got the impression you used them also for playing the VHS tapes to be captured.
But now faced with a $20 dea, can it be used for passthru from a SVHS deck?
For $20 I'll gamble it's a good machine.

It's just a pissed away $20 bill. NTSC Pioneers lacking quality TBC (or any TBC) is a known known. I hate to see people waste money.

That specific unit is ancient, and pre-dates anything known to have a line TBC. 99% odds is has nothing, like other Pioneer of the era.

Know that I heavily reviewed NTSC DVD recorders from 2003-2009.

[mts1]

lordsmurf, it looks like you somehow not aware that all European (NOT UK) models of VCRs/DVDs, etc. have full support of NTSC as well. And it is not the "PAL60", like in UK models.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts1

lordsmurf, it looks like you somehow not aware that all European (NOT UK) models of VCRs/DVDs, etc. have full support of NTSC as well. And it is not the "PAL60", like in UK models.

That's not accurate.

[mts1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That's not accurate.

Well, may be not all "all", but most of the brands I'm aware of, like JVC, Panasonic, Sony, Pioneer.
Do you have a specific brand in mind? I mean useful for the purpose of capturing.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts1

Well, may be not all "all", but most of the brands I'm aware of, like JVC, Panasonic, Sony, Pioneer.
Do you have a specific brand in mind? I mean useful for the purpose of capturing.

Again, not accurate. It's not true NTSC, just quasi support.

- For VCRs, it's outright false.
- For DVD players/recorders, it really depends. Digital data is not the problem, output analog D>A is the issue, and few have more than PAL-only or NTSC-only output.

[mts1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Again, not accurate. It's not true NTSC, just quasi support.

- For VCRs, it's outright false.
- For DVD players/recorders, it really depends. Digital data is not the problem, output analog D>A is the issue, and few have more than PAL-only or NTSC-only output.

"quasi support"? What does it even mean? And where this is coming from? How do you tell "true" support from "quasi" support?
I have European JVCs. They play NTSC tapes nicely. And I have European Sony DVD player - it has no problem pass through NTSC.
All I have to do is to switch my capture card to NTSC.

[lordsmurf]

"quasi" means it's not a full NTSC 29.97 interlaced output. It's merely "good enough to view", not to capture, as it's a not a true format.

I have PAL VCRs and DVD recorders. The only item that has true NTSC output is the ES10, buried in the menus (and somewhat obtuse at that). So, for example, I am 100% certain no PAL JVC VCR has NTSC output.

Your capture card will not understand the NTSC output of a PAL VCR/DVD, because it's not NTSC.

This is 20-25 year old common knowledge in the capturing world.

[mts1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

"quasi" means it's not a full NTSC 29.97 interlaced output. It's merely "good enough to view", not to capture, as it's a not a true format.

I have PAL VCRs and DVD recorders. The only item that has true NTSC output is the ES10, buried in the menus (and somewhat obtuse at that). So, for example, I am 100% certain no PAL JVC VCR has NTSC output.

Your capture card will not understand the NTSC output of a PAL VCR/DVD, because it's not NTSC.

This is 20-25 year old common knowledge in the capturing world.

Perhaps, you're confusing with UK models, which support PAL60 output, where NTSC color is being converted to PAL, while original NTSC FPS and number of lines are being kept.
As previously mentioned, all I have to do is to switch my capture card to NTSC to start capture.
And yes, I was capturing NTSC from JVC VCR and from Sony camcorder through Sony DVD player. All were European models.
Let me assure you, the European models do support true NTSC playback in both VCRs and DVD Players.

P.S. I just attached a screenshot with signal parameters. Do you see anything there which indicates the signal is not true NTSC?

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts1

lordsmurf, it looks like you somehow not aware that all European (NOT UK) models of VCRs/DVDs, etc. have full support of NTSC as well. And it is not the "PAL60", like in UK models.

There are two types of NTSC compatibility in the EU market, PAL60 and NTSC 4.43, One requires a TV to be multi standard, the other works with a native PAL TV, I don't remember which one is which but you can look it up, Aside from that I'm not personally aware of DVD recorders sold for the EU market that passed NTSC signal without alteration, it's good to know.

[mts1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

There are two types of NTSC compatibility in the EU market, PAL60 and NTSC 4.43, One requires a TV to be multi standard, the other works with a native PAL TV, I don't remember which one is which but you can look it up, Aside from that I'm not personally aware of DVD recorders sold for the EU market that passed NTSC signal without alteration, it's good to know.

Among all models I had PAL60 was in UK models only and you would need just regular PAL TV to watch it. All EU models had NTSC 4.43 and it would require multi-system TV.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts1

Among all models I had PAL60 was in UK models only and you would need just regular PAL TV to watch it. All EU models had NTSC 4.43 and it would require multi-system TV.

Read this 2022 thread: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...back-ntsc.html

That explains it in more detail for you.

NTSC 4.43 = not NTSC
PAL-60 (PAL60) = not NTSC

^ Arguably, neither of those are even formats.

For once, even Wikipedia is accurate: "NTSC 4.43 is a pseudo-system that transmits a NTSC color subcarrier of 4.43 MHz instead of 3.58 MHz[49] The resulting output is only viewable by TVs that support the resulting pseudo-system (such as most PAL TVs)"

Also, UK and EU models of VCRs or DVD player/recorder have no major differences.

So, again,
- for VCRs, not true
- for DVD players/recorders, it completely depends on the D>A abilities, but with most following the cheap/easy pseudo/quasi output.

I can't be any clear here.
Not NTSC.
Not NTSC.
Not NTSC.

And now you know.

[mts1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Read this 2022 thread: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...back-ntsc.html

That explains it in more detail for you.

NTSC 4.43 = not NTSC
PAL-60 (PAL60) = not NTSC

^ Arguably, neither of those are even formats.

For once, even Wikipedia is accurate: "NTSC 4.43 is a pseudo-system that transmits a NTSC color subcarrier of 4.43 MHz instead of 3.58 MHz[49] The resulting output is only viewable by TVs that support the resulting pseudo-system (such as most PAL TVs)"

Well, nobody mentioned NTSC 4.43 until latreche34 brought it up and I repeated it. And that was my mistake, because my capture card specifically said NTSC_M, which corresponded to 3.58 MHz. So, your counterarguments are irrelevant here. And even if it would be 4.43, how does it matter as long as all your devices support it?

Nobody claims PAL60 is NTSC. Not sure why even to bring it up and argue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Also, UK and EU models of VCRs or DVD player/recorder have no major differences.

Then why bother 2 separate lines?
Just FYI, besides having different power plugs, EU models support true NTSC playback as well as record and playback SECAM (in MESECAM format).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

So, again,
- for VCRs, not true
- for DVD players/recorders, it completely depends on the D>A abilities, but with most following the cheap/easy pseudo/quasi output.

I can't be any clear here.
Not NTSC.
Not NTSC.
Not NTSC.

And now you know.

lordsmurf, let me assure you, the facts are really stubborn things. No matter how much you discuss and argue - they always will be there and they won't change.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts1

Well, nobody mentioned NTSC 4.43 until latreche34 brought it up and I repeated it. And that was my mistake, because my capture card specifically said NTSC_M, which corresponded to 3.58 MHz. So, your counterarguments are irrelevant here. And even if it would be 4.43, how does it matter as long as all your devices support it?

That makes no sense.

Quote:

Nobody claims PAL60 is NTSC. Not sure why even to bring it up and argue.

It's because PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 are essentially the same, two ways to "hack" an analog NTSC video signal to play on PAL systems. Either way, the output is lousy.

Quote:

Then why bother 2 separate lines?

Regulations, marketing.

Quote:

Just FYI, besides having different power plugs, EU models support true NTSC playback as well as record and playback SECAM (in MESECAM format).

MESECAM is essentially PAL already. Vastly different from NTSC.

Quote:

lordsmurf, let me assure you, the facts are really stubborn things. No matter how much you discuss and argue - they always will be there and they won't change.

I agree. But you don't have the facts here. What you're asserting is untrue.

There difference in PAL and NTSC is color storage, frame rate, and interlacing. It's easy to badly convert, using PAL60 (or NTSC 4.43), and that's how it was done 99% of the time. Proper conversion is much harder, more processing, more steps.

I've been working with PAL and NTSC video for decades now, since the 90s.

[mts1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That makes no sense.

Well, that's the fact on the ground.
And it is not a one off, it's a pattern. My first multi-system VCR was PANASONIC NV-HD680AM. It even had switch for NTSC playback - 3.58 or 4.43.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

It's because PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 are essentially the same, two ways to "hack" an analog NTSC video signal to play on PAL systems. Either way, the output is lousy.

Why? I mean if you have to convert colors from NTSC to PAL, then yes, losses are expected, but it is just different sub-carrier frequency, then I don't see any reason for quality loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Regulations, marketing.

MESECAM is essentially PAL already. Vastly different from NTSC.

Well, the main difference is chroma handling, so is NTSC. FPS and number of lines are just small technical difference. It is easy to handle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I agree. But you don't have the facts here. What you're asserting is untrue.

Actually, I do. You just refuse to accept them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

There difference in PAL and NTSC is color storage, frame rate, and interlacing. It's easy to badly convert, using PAL60 (or NTSC 4.43), and that's how it was done 99% of the time. Proper conversion is much harder, more processing, more steps.

I've been working with PAL and NTSC video for decades now, since the 90s.

You keep mentioning interlacing here like it a major factor. I'm not sure why.
Also, there is no conversion. PAL VCR just plays NTSC as a regular NTSC VCR. All you have to have is another circuit to handle NTSC format.
It's not a major problem for manufacturers like JVC.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts1

Why? I mean if you have to convert colors from NTSC to PAL, then yes, losses are expected, but it is just different sub-carrier frequency, then I don't see any reason for quality loss.

Any analog processing incur a loss, even for only chroma, Some DVD recorders do have digital format conversion processing if captured from their HDMI output, the losses tend to be minimal but be carful about HDMI, only very few from back in the DVD era that produced true rec.601 480i/576i video signal, the majority were 720p or 480p/576p at a minimum.