Best capture options for line TBC?

[DarkStar]

To preface, not interested in the Panasonic DMR ES10/ES15 as despite their decent line-tbc, the clipped whites is a huge deal breaker for me. I have a DMR ES45 which also has a decent line tbc, but I honestly didn't notice that it basically outputs a composite signal regardless of input, kinda bad as well on s-video out, leading to a lot of luma/chroma artifacts. I've also heard about some Pioneer DVD recorders that while they have a line tbc, the image is kinda blocky.

Are there any decently affordable options under $500 that don't degrade the video quality that much?

I've seen talk that newer models of the I/O data GV USB2 may have a decent line tbc while capturing, but don't think I can risk it since some models don't have it.

[Aya_Rei]

The IO-Data does not seem to have line TBC capabilities, it's probably just a bit more resilient to some time based errors.

Ethan Nunn made a blog detailing how to fix the clipped whites caused by the ES15/ES10

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkStar

I've seen talk that newer models of the I/O data GV USB2 may have a decent line tbc

This is not correct. The GV-USB2 does not have a TBC, nor anything even resembling a TBC. It's just a USB capture card, nothing more.

This is how myths and rumors start, or are spread.

If GV-USB2 has a TBC, then so does my toaster.

[DarkStar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

This is not correct. The GV-USB2 does not have a TBC, nor anything even resembling a TBC. It's just a USB capture card, nothing more.

This is how myths and rumors start, or are spread.

If GV-USB2 has a TBC, then so does my toaster.

Unrelated, but I was wondering if you could help clear this up for me. Are the Panasonic DVD recorders like ES10/ES15 different in that they preserve the Y/C separation of S-Video input on passthrough, and the Panasonic DVD/VCR combo units do not? I'm not sure if I read on here something about that. I was hoping it was just limited to the VHS deck routing the signal to composite before any of the outputs (component/s-video), and that any s-video passthrough from these combo units isn't basically composite.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Unrelated, but I was wondering if you could help clear this up for me. Are the Panasonic DVD recorders like ES10/ES15 different in that they preserve the Y/C separation of S-Video input on passthrough, and the Panasonic DVD/VCR combo units do not?

It really depends on the exact model, and exact revision if multiples. Most "combo" DVD recorders do, in fact, internally composite input video for processing. Then outputs as composite, s-video, component, HDMI. It's one of many reasons why most DVD recorders look like crap.

Not all are like that, of course. I do not recall the specifics of non-ES10/15 Panasonic combo recorders, especially since most are PAL.

There's used to be a guy at VH that'd often argue with me, but you could see the blended deinterlace with rainbow noise in his sample clips. He was just being obtuse ("if I close my eyes, you can't see me"). He had a PAL combo deck, and it was terrible.

The bigger issue with ES10/15 type combo units is that it spews messages on screen about the DVD or HDD, and/or shuts off quickly. The ES10 and ES15 shut off, but it takes about 6 hours before timeouts. So from that facts alone, the ES10/15 type combo units are simply not suggested.

Quote:

I've also heard about some Pioneer DVD recorders that while they have a line tbc, the image is kinda blocky.

Yes, the image is first encoded on many DVD recorders, and not really analog passthrough. Sometimes the output is DVD-ready encodes, transcoded down for non-XP mode. Signal routes and internals varied greatly in the decade of DVD recorders (~'02-12).

A lot of people just grab random gear, and some proclaim it to have features that don't exist. They simply do not know about the gear, and hence you get lots of awful advice (especially from Youtube and Reddit).

I can't speak to the specifics of all models. There are too many, and it's been 20 years since I did DVD recorder testing and reviews. As a tip, always assume the worst, never the best. DVD recorders have a way with letting you down. Most let you did. Lots of awful units, even from "brand names".

The safe units are ES10 and ES15. (Anybody ever wanting ES10/15 type recorders should reach out to me, see what I have available.)

[BmacSWA]

The attenuator trick seems like a winner to me. Great tip!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

The IO-Data does not seem to have line TBC capabilities, it's probably just a bit more resilient to some time based errors.

Ethan Nunn made a blog detailing how to fix the clipped whites caused by the ES15/ES10

This is a great trick. I’m glad people out there are clever enough to come up with it.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BmacSWA

I’m glad people out there are clever enough to come up with it.

Just be aware that the person ENunn credits for it, didn't come up with it. Attenuation was mentioned here (and/or VH) at least 10 years ago by other users. In fact, that person has some weird/false ideas about TBCs, and just digital video conversion in general. As they say, broken clocks are at least right twice. In this case, ignore the people, focus on the method.

However, I must say, rather than spending ~$60+ on just cables, spend ~$125 (or $250) on a good proc amp. While 2x (or 4x) the price, it has 100x the utility.

[dpalomaki]

FWIW, the attenuator listed was for 50 ohm systems. Video is typically 75 ohm, so the dB rating will be off and ghost artifacts might be induced in longer cable runs. Also, the diagram attenuates the "Y: but not the "C" so color (RBG) construction may be off depending on other factors in the system such as AGC, sync, black level, etc. (However, if the results please the user, ...)

I agree with LS, a decent proc amp is the better way to go.

[Gary34]

Quote:

In fact, that person has some weird/false ideas about TBCs, and just digital video conversion in general.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...cOS-compatible

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...cOS-compatible

Yes, that Tommy86 guy really is clueless when it comes to TBCs. He spouts tons of misinformation.

I like this quote best:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lollo

You do not deserve anything because you are just ignorant on the subject.
But post an evidence of a DVD recorder acting as a frame TBC fixing bad tapes, and I will post a sample showing how the capture of a problematic tape is not improved by a DVD recorder but it is by an external TBC.
Waiting for you samples validating your bullshit…

lollo can be testy, but rightly so in some situations.

[radiokom]

Last month I digitized 2 VHS cassettes when only ES10 helped. I tried on them JVC HR-S7711, Panasonic NV-FS200 and NV-HS1000 with line TBC on and off, shift on top was still there. It is rare, but when this happens ES10 helps (with switched off VCR line TBC in most cases) and in those cases its own added problems are far less than benefit. But frame TBC is needed anyway.

[darkeyes7777]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkStar

To preface, not interested in the Panasonic DMR ES10/ES15 as despite their decent line-tbc, the clipped whites is a huge deal breaker for me. I have a DMR ES45 which also has a decent line tbc, but I honestly didn't notice that it basically outputs a composite signal regardless of input, kinda bad as well on s-video out, leading to a lot of luma/chroma artifacts. I've also heard about some Pioneer DVD recorders that while they have a line tbc, the image is kinda blocky.

Are there any decently affordable options under $500 that don't degrade the video quality that much?

I've seen talk that newer models of the I/O data GV USB2 may have a decent line tbc while capturing, but don't think I can risk it since some models don't have it.

if you see my post:
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...laris-vss.html

i did the same vhs rip with an
AUGUST VGB100, year 2014 with conexant polaris

and with
I/O data GV USB2 with techware 9910.

As you see the frames and IA analisys, conexant polaris is better than techware 9910 inside io data.

[BmacSWA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

The IO-Data does not seem to have line TBC capabilities, it's probably just a bit more resilient to some time based errors.

Ethan Nunn made a blog detailing how to fix the clipped whites caused by the ES15/ES10

So, in stead of using the cabling and attenuator could I just use the Big Voodoo Proc AMP to reduce the luma to an acceptable non clipped value?

[mts1]

To avoid crush/clipping the luma adjustment should happened before digitizing.

[BmacSWA]

The TBC10 comes after the VCR prior to capture.

[mts1]

I didn't know Big Voodoo Proc AMP is part of TBC10.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

Last month I digitized 2 VHS cassettes when only ES10 helped.

My timing is uncanny. Just today, I came across a tape with bad timing. The ES15 made it worse, only the JVC could correct visual problems. Both line TBCs were not enough, frames would be dropped without my Cypress frame TBC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkeyes7777

conexant polaris is better than techware 9910 inside io data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BmacSWA

I didn't know Big Voodoo Proc AMP is part of TBC10.

FYI, for anybody looking, I have an extra early-gen BV10 right now. I'd built out workflows for an archivist org, but unexpected things happened on their end, and still no ETA on if/when they can follow through. So it's up for grabs now. I've not yet posted it in the marketplace. These units are difficult to acquire now. If the archive org deals fall through, I'm just keeping the 2nd unit for myself.

[DarrylInCanada]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

I agree with LS, a decent proc amp is the better way to go.

In my setup SVHS > ES15 > DVK200 > ATI600 I think I found that once the white is clipped by the ES15, no amount of fiddling with the dials on the DVK200 proc amp helped.

Just trying to clarify what you and Lord Smurf mean exactly in relation to the proc amp's ability to fix (or not) the too-much-brightness issue done by the ES15.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrylInCanada

In my setup SVHS > ES15 > DVK200 > ATI600 I think I found that once the white is clipped by the ES15, no amount of fiddling with the dials on the DVK200 proc amp helped.

Just trying to clarify what you and Lord Smurf mean exactly in relation to the proc amp's ability to fix (or not) the too-much-brightness issue done by the ES15.

ES10/15 is not an ideal item to own as a "TBC replacement", for multiple reasons.

Clipping can be compensated for at any time, but the effectiveness depends on location pre/post in the chain. Proc amps may or may not hinder TBC effectiveness, but it's not any worse than ES10/15 hindering quality itself. You have to swap gear around, until the best possible order is found (and often just for 1 tape, the next may differ).

I have
- YUV proc amps
- RGB proc amps
- YUV proc amps + line TBC, in single unit
- YUV proc amps + frame TBC, in single unit

I can go bonkers with proc amps, and it can be fun for glitch/art style work (or play).

Pissing away $60+ on cables is just a "no" from me. I'd much rather apply that to proc amps, especially since proc amps won't have the side effects @dpalomaki mentioned

[BmacSWA]

LS would you agree the BV TBC 10 does contain a Proc Amp or No? Its documentation shows the menu levels to adjust both Luma and Chroma levels.