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  #1  
01-30-2010, 03:02 PM
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Are there some DVD recorders that just perform well for the money that can be picked up used for a fair price, I mean like the JVC vhs units with the tbc/nr that do their job well, that are fairly available for a fair price?
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  #2  
01-30-2010, 03:51 PM
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Few of them are optimal quality for VHS to DVD transfer work, as the recorders will convert the image errors along with the good portions of the video signal. When a DVD has all the original VHS noise still intact, it looks really crappy on modern HDTV televisions.

However, many recorders work quite well for off-air TV/cable/satellite recordings! You can find a list of the best DVD recorders available on the DVD recorder reviews page at http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-recorders.htm

Just read over the reviews page, and it should discuss most all of the basics. Ask questions if you need to know anything specific, and I'll see what I can come up with for you.

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  #3  
01-30-2010, 04:04 PM
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I did read that, that's why I asked...don't know where to go, there seems to be a few Magnavox MSR90D6 DVD Recorders that I can find now for a fair price, is this model any good for vhs-dvd?
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  #4  
01-30-2010, 04:57 PM
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It will recorder pretty much any signal, but it won't do ANY cleaning for you. You'll have to pre-clean all of the video, through a VCR and TBC, before the DVD recorder input.

Hunting down old JVC or Toshiba equipment is really the best way to go.

The ES series Panasonics in SP or XP mode only, may be passable second choices. The recording quality of the Panasonic ES isn't top notch, but it does filter pretty decent -- maybe too strong, even, as it posterizes/bands the color, and can be temporally blurred.

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  #5  
01-30-2010, 06:11 PM
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I currently use a panasonic EA 38V dual (vhs-dvd), it will record dvd from vhs but doesn't seem to clean up the signal at all, so now I am just using it to record the dvd from the jvc svhs....what about the 38v, is the dvd recorder decent enough with the 8710 and a detailer or do I need another dvd recorder?
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  #6  
01-30-2010, 08:09 PM
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I believe those "EA" model machines are part of the EZ series by Panasonic from 2008-2009. Not the greatest, and not using the same filtering set as the 2005-2006 ES models. These machines are harder to come by, and often very expensive compared to others, so I was unable to fully test one back in fall 2009.

The most harmful noise from VHS tapes is grain and chroma -- visual errors.

Everybody should know what grain is. Or so I would assume. (Ask if you need examples.)

To better understand chroma noise, see this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...flaws-565.html

The external TBC does not address visual errors -- or if you want to get technical, sometimes it DOES help with visual errors, but only minimally (visual jitter, sometimes). It won't fix chroma nose.

The detailer just makes video artificially sharper. It can be good for making VHS tapes look sharper ("more detail", "DVD quality"), if they're in good SP mode recorded condition. Noisy VHS tapes often just get noisier when sharpened. Grain in EP/SLP mode tapes often just gets chrunchier.

You have two choices, when using this recorder:
  1. Record the noise (eww, yuck!) and "live with it" because it's "good enough"
  2. Buy the JVC S-VHS VCR with TBC+DNR, to pre-clean the noise.
Personally, I can't stand the "good enough" mentality that puts up with inferior crappy video. I'd just assume not watch it. Learning that it can be done better was why this site was created.

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  #7  
01-30-2010, 10:53 PM
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Will the panasonic AG-1980 pre clean the noise like the JVC's do? Think I found a 1980 and I have alot of real old vhs recorded in ep/slp recorded tapes with noise and pretty blurry and have read the panasonic will do a better job of playing these?
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  #8  
01-30-2010, 11:13 PM
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Yes, the Panasonic AG-1980P will clean up VHS tape quality, too, with its full field TBC.

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  #9  
01-31-2010, 08:29 PM
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Can't really find info on the Toshiba Model No D-R410 DVD Recorder, is this a good one?
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  #10  
01-31-2010, 08:44 PM
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It's another "TV quality" DVD recorder, only good for recording off-air TV. It won't clean up video from VHS tapes. I'd say the Sony RDR-GX257 is better, for that purpose. Brand new, it's $115 with free shipping, from Amazon. The Toshiba will be used or refurb, and within $25, so similarly priced.

Again, compare it on the reviews page: http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-recorders.htm
Those are all recent reviews, end of 2009. Nothing has changed in the past 30 days.

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  #11  
01-31-2010, 09:22 PM
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Is there a list of the best models for this purpose? As the units are listed for sale by model and not year it was made.
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  #12  
01-31-2010, 10:29 PM
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It's not online right now. It was removed by accident a year or two ago, and is part of the 2010 updates. There are many mentions, however, in the forums.

These are the best DVD recorders for converting VHS to DVD, because the machines can be set to clean up the quality -- or have native hardware (i.e., the LSI Logic DoMiNo/DMN chipsets) that cleans quality.

#1 Choice: JVC LSI Logic series recorders (2004-2006):
  • JVC DR-M10 / M10S
  • JVC DR-M100 / M100S
  • JVC DR-MV1 / MV1S
  • JVC DR-MV5
  • JVC SR-MV45 / MV45US
  • and a bunch more
#2 Choice: Toshiba RDR-XS series DVD recorders (2003-2006)
  • Toshiba RDR-XS32
  • Toshiba RDR-XS34
  • Toshiba RDR-XS35
  • Toshiba RDR-XS36
  • Toshiba RDR-KX50
  • and several more (going off memory)
#3 Choice: LiteOn DVD recorders (2003-2004)
  • LiteOn LVW-5001
  • LiteOn LVW-5005
  • and quite a few more, all LiteOn machines
  • Daytek clones
  • Gateway clones
  • iLo DVDR04 / HD04 clones from Walmart

JVC issues:

The JVC machines, especially the early ones, had the "LOADING" issue as explained in this thread: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...-dvd-2008.html

In some cases, disabling the "power save" mode fixed the excessive pull on the unit's capacitors, but it also prevented the timer recording from working. In these situations, the JVC effectively had no timer, making it unfriendly for TV recording.

Some units would also record video too light, a known IRE problem. (However, this is a bit of a moot point, as IRE is all over the place, be it in cameras, VCRs or broadcasts. Even pro DVDs get it wrong!)

All in all, the machines were reliable and offered top quality.

Toshiba issues:

Toshiba had a bad design in my opinion, as it used the built-in "TVGOS" television guide system. It forced the machine to run 24/7, which caused some heat, and the fan ran in the unit almost 24/7/365. I considered that a fire hazard, so it was something I had to unplug when not using it.

It also falsely detected non-existent "copy protection" not only in VHS tapes (or any input signal, to be honest), but also from broadcast TV. It infamously refused to record many channels, especially on Comcast, and especially on HBO and pay-per-view channels. No broadcast flag was present, it was bad detection.

But it clean up video nicely, with a built-in adjustable filter system, as well as user-alterable bitrates.

LiteOn issues:

The LiteOn units was cheaply put together from kits, making them popular. At the time, it was the only unit at the $200 price point. Like the JVC series, it's used LSI Logic DoMiNo chipsets, giving it the same basic filtering abilities (suppress grain, remove chroma noise).

The units had hidden menus, unlocked by simply flashing the firmware. This site archived many of those firmware hacks at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...aytek-402.html

The flashes disabled copy-protection detection ("remove Macrovision" as some would say, albeit inaccurate), as well as allow for a 3-hour mode. Some would also remove region protection, to allow worldwide playback of DVDs.

The early units had no fans inside, and the player would severely overheat. I have one of the units, but custom modded it with heatsinks on the LSI processor, and fans that could be turned on and off, with accompanying air vent holes.

And it that wasn't enough, sometimes the machine would "jitter" -- alternating between the interlace fields, with some picture bouncing. I get this when using the machine in 3-hour mode for long periods of time (hacked mode +overheating). It's been speculated that the 3-hour was hidden because of its apparent unreliable interlace bounce issue. LiteOn never commented on it.

Oh, and it used standard LiteOn burners that were easy to replace.

LiteOn ran a really nice forum, where LiteOn Taiwan techs interacted with machine owners, often offering up official firmwares, as well as unofficial ones. The site crashed one day -- a typical symptom of using the very, very crappy phpBB2 forum system -- and was never put back. It stayed in crashed form for probably 2-3 years before being deleted from the site. Pathetic. LiteOn lost a bunch of respect among the video community, after that.

IRE was sometimes off by +/-1 or 2, and sometimes luma shifted green on latter-generation units (especially the iLo clones and LiteOn 5106).


As of 2010...

JVC models are easier to come by these days, albeit in various states of condition. Some work like new, others have been victim of LOADING and were broken by poor repair attempts. And then there's everythng in between those two.

Toshiba recorders were hard to find when new. Most of them have disappeared entirely, carefully maintained by happy owners. When available for sale, they're often expensive and/or very used.

LiteOn machines were considered "cheap" (under $200) at their time, and a "no name brand" by general consumers. For whatever reason, many were trashed for no good reason, instead of being repaired and well maintained. As such, few seem to be available.

I have a LiteOn -- the custom modded 5001 mentioned above -- that I'd sell for $100 as-is*. It worked fine, I recorded something with it last month. I used it as a player for about 6 hours one day in mid December. Prior to that, it sat dormant for about 2-3 years, being a backup deck only. I bought it new, and it has maybe 200 hours of use max (both as player, and recorder) -- essentially "like new" condition. It's an excellent machine, but I just don't really need it, and I'd rather have some funds to buy other needed gear, as well as pass along a great item to somebody who does need it. It does me no good in a closet. My other LiteOn units sold in 2008-2009, for about the same price, and the owners all loved them. I planned to put it in the marketplace around Feb 10 or so, but may as well offer it now.
*I say "as is" only because I don't do refunds, it's tested used equipment, often sold for less than true value.

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  #13  
02-01-2010, 11:30 AM
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If that's a sticky, I didn't find it...if it's not it should be.

Are all Gateway's really LiteOn clones and good for recording?
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  #14  
02-01-2010, 08:50 PM
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Which topic? Some of the LiteOn firmware hacking info is already a sticky in the TV/DVR subforum. The other information tends to be spread around. There's a new JVC DVD recorder LOADING fixes sticky, also in the TV/DVR forum.

I don't know for sure if all Gateway units are LiteOn rebadged models. But that was the status quo a couple of years ago. Gateway isn't a big brand of electronics -- they usually make computers. I can't imagine there being many Gateway recorder models.

The one I'm aware of most readily is the Gateway AR-230 is the same a the LiteOn LVW-5005. In fact, that may have been the only Gateway DVD recorder model, period?

The 5005 is basically a 5001 with a weak built-in fan. My 5001 mods were much better than the 5005 version upgrades done by LiteOn. The 5005 still got hot.

NOTE: In my last post, I noticed some of the links were dead. Not sure what happened there. It's fixed now.

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  #15  
02-01-2010, 10:29 PM
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Thanks for then info!!
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  #16  
02-03-2010, 02:15 PM
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Some of the LiteOns (I forget which) were also prone to audio sync issues.

The Toshibas had questionable quality drives (both the burners and HDDs).
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  #17  
02-04-2010, 05:36 PM
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The latter LiteOns were the ones with audio sync errors. I believe there was some overlap with the units that had green-shifted luminance. Firmware fixes were supposed to correct for this, although results varied.

I recall reading about drive/HDD quality in the Toshibas, but I'm not necessarily sure it was any better or worse than others at the time. Panasonic and Pioneer were pretty bad when it came to hard drives. Burners tend to be a universal problem, even today.

Thanks for the added input.

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  #18  
02-04-2010, 07:25 PM
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Yeah, I tried the firmware fix that was supposed to fix the audio sync problem but it didn't help, so I returned it to NewEgg for a refund after trying 2 units.

Dunno about the HDD models (my Pioneer 460, which is my first HDD recorder, has been great so far and I don't recall hearing any widespread complaints), but the DVD only Panasonic and Pioneers always seemed to have the best build quality, IMO, and with the Pioneers having pretty solid recording quality, they've been my favorite brand for years, so I was sad to see them go.
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  #19  
02-07-2010, 03:07 PM
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How about the samsung R-120 for tape, etc-dvd?
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  #20  
02-08-2010, 06:31 AM
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The Samsung DVD-R120 DVD recorder is based on the LSI Logic encoding chipset, too. It should be at least as good as a LiteOn, but probably not as good as the JVC. It's been 5 years since I tested one. My parents own one, but it sits unplugged for probably 2-3 years now.

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