Convert VHS collection to DVD with combo unit AND without external black box?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

I'm new on this site & just finding my way around but have read several threads & you pop up continuously (wisely & highly regarded I might add).

Thanks much. I'm in quite a few places online, when video is the topic.

Quote:

I want to transfer several hundred VHS tapes to DVD.

Quote:

None of the tapes have copy protection.

All tapes have errors. Even if a tape does not have the artificial errors made as a means of copy protection, the real errors inherent to the VHS format often confuse a machine. The confused machines thinks the error is copy protection, and it either gives a poor copy or -- more likely -- refuses to transfer the video, giving you a rude message on screen.

Quote:

All are around 60 to 80 minutes in length & recorded in SP.

Ideally, you'd want a machine that does a 90-minute mode, if using a DVD recorder. Or set bitrates appropriately in a computer method.

Quote:

All are pre-recorded original (factory) tapes that won't require editing of any kind - just a "straight" transfer.

Pre-recorded tapes often have copy protection. At best, even if the tapes don't have protection, the real errors may be kept to a minimum. Retail recorded tapes are often made on decks with more-stable signals than what a home VCR or home video camera made.

Quote:

Of course, I'd like to get the best quality I can by recording in XP, SP or FR (if available in your recommendation) and I'd like to do it

Yep, as I mention just a second ago! Very good.

Quote:

without getting into external "black boxes" or involving a PC.

Most times you're going to need either

• a timebase corrector (TBC) for about $200-225, like the AVT-8710 from B&H
• or a "copy remover" device for about $100 -- but note that it only works about half the time or less !!!! REGARDLESS of what the company claims. I've been debunking these things for 10 years now.

Quote:

I'd love to do this on a combo unit

Combo units sound like a good idea, but they are not. The VCRs are generally terribly made junk that will poorly play your tape (or even eat it!). Because of the aforementioned signal error issue in tapes, many combo units refuse to copy VHS to DVD.

In reality, a combo unit will only:

• play a DVD
• play a VHS tape
• record a DVD from a TV channel
• record a VHS tape from a TV channel

Quote:

but I've noticed that, with an exception here & there, they are not well liked.

And for the reasons listed above.

Quote:

(I did come across a post from one user here raving about the quality he's gotten from his JVC DR-MV78 unit though.

I say it all over the Internet, and I'll say it again: most reviews are left by idiots. I would wager that the raving is for one of the things it does do, mentioned above (record off TV). Furthermore, the person may be using a 12" TV from 1985, part blind in one eye, and can't see the quality flaws of that exact unit. In some cases, people even expect home video to look bad, so they are okay with blocks and noise, thinking that's all that is possible, so it must be good!

It's not impossible for that scenario to exist -- great quality VHS to DVD on MV78 -- but it's very unlikely.

Quote:

I have a standing search on eBay for 1 but they are not at all common so many years after their manufacture and, to make the possibility of finding the right one even more difficult, I believe the original poster mentioned to get a refurbished one if possible.) So, working within the above, and assuming a "perfect" MV78 doesn't pop up soon, what brand/model would you recommend?

The JVC units from more recents years ARE NOT the high quality JVC decks mentioned in years past. The MV78 is a rebadge of a cheaply made LG unit.

Quote:

Are any of the newer JVC's worth pursuing MV5, 79, 80, 100, 150)

The MV5 was a good DVD recorder, but the VCR was not all that hot. It did work. I'd buy that unit for the DVD recorder part.

The JVC SR-MV45 US is an excellent unit, for $400 from Amazon. But it still might require loopback-recording via an external box.

Quote:

or should I admit that's it's not possible to get decent quality without going with a S-VHS VCR (w/S-video out) to a DVD recorder (and various "black boxes")?

Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

You'll notice combo decks rarely, if ever, state "convert your VHS to DVD" anywhere on the box or instructions. There's good reason for that. (And even when that is stated, it's a passive marketing lie.)

This question was asked in a private message. Rather than hide our tech advice in private conversations, Site Staff will often answer PMs (from any site) here in the digitalFAQ.com forum, so that others may read and benefit from our expertise. Please continue the conversation here. Either login or join as a Free Member, and we can continue troubleshooting your video, photo or web related issue. Thanks for understanding our tech Q&A policies.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

I've been playing around with the limited equipment I have so I thought I'd toss that in here at this point too. I've been buying various combo decks, trying them & selling them on eBay if I don't particularly care for the results. I still have 3 of them & here's what I've found so far--

The first one I acquired about 6 or 7 years ago was a Samsung DVD-VR325. I think this is a Panasonic clone & I'll get back to this one in a minute. The next machine was a Panasonic DMR-EA38V. I didn't like much of anything about this deck. My VHS to DVD dubs were good/very good at SP but it seemed to be really cheaply made.

Quote:

The tape transport especially seemed flimsy.

Such is the problem on the cheap VCR components used in all but the very best pro combo decks.

Quote:

Occasionally I'd get a jittery image during playback but after ejecting & re-inserting the tape it would be fine. Very inconsistent performance.

An issue with the frame synchonizer, I'd bet. This sounds like unstable time base jitter.

Quote:

Another machine I still have is the JVC DR-MV5. I bought this because I wanted to evaluate if Flex Record would have a favorable impact on my dubs which in SP almost always leave 40-50 minutes of unused disc space. The picture during VHS playback is pretty good but, as soon as I engage the dubbing mode (they call it "One-touch Expert Dub" on the front), it flags & becomes discolored at the top of the picture which is transferred to the DVD recording. It's instantaneous too - playback is going along just fine but as soon as I press the arrow which tells the machine which direction I'm going to copy to & from (VHS to DVD), the distortion instantly starts at the top of the picture. I asked JVC Support about it but they were useless.

You ran into false copy protection (or legitimate copy protection, if it was a pre-recorded "store bought" VHS tape). You would need a TBC or copyguard blocker for this. The "external black box" you asked about.

Quote:

Which brings me to the Samsung DVD-VR325. I don't know if I got a freak machine but this produces terrific copies. I've never had the slightest hicc-up with it and, certainly, none of the problems I've come across on some of the discussion boards. It's produced several hundred DVD's (DVD-R's) for myself & friends

Quote:

with just about any disc brand you can name (although I'm using Taiyo Yuden's for the job ahead)

Wise move. Stick to good media! Full list of the best blank DVDs (and where to get them at the best price) at http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm

Quote:

& it tracks perfectly nearly every (pre-recorded SP) tape I've ever put in it.

Tracking generally isn't as much of an issue -- especially on SP mode tapes -- as is anti-copy flagging or even basic stability issues in the signal.

Quote:

I'm starting to think that perhaps I don't have as critical an eye for the results as I should but they look terrific to me & the controls & tape transport feel (and sound) solid & smooth.

Possibly.

Quote:

Far better than either the JVC or Panny. If it had FR, I think I'd go out on a limb & say it's the perfect machine.

Flex recording (FR) mode is certainly nice, letting you customize the bitrate to the recording length. No wasted bits or empty disc space that way, ensures the best quality possible with the machine.

Quote:

Of course, I don't know anything about the chipset, head-width, noise-reduction circuitry or a hundred other things that make up these machines that get debated on this site (or even who made it) but copy-after-copy is clear & stable.

In many cases, it's as easy as unscrewing the deck and looking at the printing on a black chip about the size of a quarter. Some chipsets have cooling units, so those are harder to see. A few machines are full of metal crap and plastic -- a maze of computer guts (JVC is this way on the DR-M10!)

I don't know offhand what is in this unit, being a 2006 deck. There is a slim chance it's an end-of-line LSI Logic DMN-8xxx chipset. I'd have to see some recording samples, to look for chroma noise -- presence of chroma noise would mean it's not LSI, lack of chroma would mean it is likely an LSI.

Chroma noise examples.

Quote:

Maybe I should look for one a year or two newer with FR (if they ever added it) but they may have changed other things such as the coding chip that make it less desirable. You'd know better than me. I'd be curious if you've ever used this unit in particular or any Samsung in general. Nobody much cares for them here.

I'd have to dig through my notes. A number of Samsung products, including DVD recorders, are re-brands of units made by (and sold by) other companies, especially Panasonic.

Quote:

Anyway, just thought I'd pass this stuff along from my (inexperienced and, possibly, uncritical) point-of-view. Thanks again.

Good stuff, thanks much.

Hopefully these two posts have helped you some. For any follow-up comments or questions, post here. Thanks.

This question was asked in a private message. Rather than hide our tech advice in private conversations, Site Staff will often answer PMs (from any site) here in the digitalFAQ.com forum, so that others may read and benefit from our expertise. Please continue the conversation here. Either login or join as a Free Member, and we can continue troubleshooting your video, photo or web related issue. Thanks for understanding our tech Q&A policies.

[LocalHero]

Hey lordsmurf,

Can't thank you enough for the time & effort you put into your post. I'm still trying to wrap my head around your advice in regard to what I need to eventually do. I did have time to pop-the-top of one of my Samsung DVD-VR325's & you were (not surprisingly) spot on. The chip is clearly visible & is labeled LSI Logic DMN-8652 (then 'BO' I think). Is that a good thing?

[admin]

That is a good thing, yes. The LSI Logic DMN-8652 is a good chipset for VHS to DVD conversion, as it removes chroma noise and tape grain. Grainy video and color bleeding/flickers get cleaned up quite well by LSI chipsets.

This is one of those few Samsungs that was not a Panasonic, back when Samsung still had DVD recorders. This may well be the combo version of the Samsung R120 that also has an LSI chipset.

[LocalHero]

I just bought a Samsung DVD-VR330 and it doesn't appear to have the LSI chipset (like the DVD-VR325 does) even though it's listed as having it in the list taken off their website before they removed it.

The DVD-VR325 very clearly says "LSI Logic" on it but the one in the 330 just says "DVD-VR330" and "9854" (I think). If I recall correctly too, it seems to be smaller than the LSI chip.

Thanks again!

[admin]

Check out all the chips, be sure you haven't missed it. Remember that it may be underneath a heatsink or other cooling hardware.

If you end up being 100% positive that the chipset is not in that model of machine, then I can go update those old threads from 2005 that list the LSI Logic chipsets, as per the list from the LSI Logic site's gallery.

There's always a chance that the model was created after LSI got out of chip production, although it had been a planned unit. If that is the case, Samsung may have either rebadged another machine, or replaced the LSI Logic chipset with something else. However, "something else" should still have identifiable chipset markers/names on it, such as Cirrus or Zoran.

Just keep me in the loop. Thanks.

[LocalHero]

It didn't sit well with me either so, earlier today, I removed the housing of both a 325 & the new 330. I definitely mis-identified the chips. In the 325, the big LSI chip is exposed & right out where you can see it. In the 330, the DVD burner obscures it and there's almost no way to view the chip without removing the burner to view underneath.

It looks like there are 4 screws that hold the burner in place. I'd like to take them out so I can tilt it up to see underneath. Is that a pretty straightforward job or could I possibly screw something up, knock something out of alignment or have a hundred springs go shooting all over the room?

[admin]

Always remember that the tell-tale sign of the LSI Logic DMN chipset is that it removes chroma noise, that red/blue color noise found on all VHS tapes (retail or homemade). Examples of chroma noise.

Aside from an XBOX, I've never seen a DVD ROM/burner that was easy to "mess up" (be it springs or some other goofy arrangement of the hardware). None of the 20+ odd DVD recorders I've taken apart have even been an issue -- just remove the screws, do what's needed, put it back again.

Just be careful, sometimes the wires are flimsy.