Best capture device for VHS Hi8 (PAL) on PC?

[Tooth76]

I'm new here as a user but not as a topic reader

I've been using Canopus ADVC-1xx / Datavideo DAC-100 to capture Video8 / Hi8 and VHS for ~20 years now.

But it's 2025... Are there better solutions to capture analog video?

Please no discussion on TBC's or VCR's, I already have those covered.

In short: if you ignore the budget (well, limit is ~$2000), what's the best new available analog (PAL) capture device that money can buy you right now (for PC)?

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

In the world of consumer analog videotape capturing, there's really nothing new.

DV devices (Canopus, DataVideo, Matrox, Pinnacle, some others) have been outdated since the early 2000s. Those were late 1990s technology, from the days of the Pentium II (minimum) / III (suggested) computers. Back when many IDE hard drives were still measured with MB (500MB, etc), and only "fancy" expensive systems had GB.

The real game changer for non-DV was MPEG and lossless capturing, especially ATI AIW cards. Sadly, the AIW are still some of the best capture cards ever made (and still require WinXP), but it mostly went sideways or downhill from there. A few cards were quite good, and on USB interface. Namely ATI 600 USB, or certain versions of certain Pinnacles (not any random Pinnacle, certainly not Dazzle junk).

The main defects of DV are color/chroma tint shifting, off exposure, DV blocks (macroblocks). The 4:1:1 just obliterated color data for NTSC (vs. equiv 4:2:2 source on the tapes), and PAL 4:2:0 was passable but soft like high-bitrate homemade DVDs (hardly the bar for high quality). Recent example here.

Since at least 2015, more like 2010, new capture cards are interested in HD video, and SD is always a poor afterthought "feature". Blackmagic cards, for example, are HD cards that do SD capture quite poorly. So many issues with those, in addition to quality defects on par with DV. Honestly, as bad as DV is, those HD cards tend to be worse. It's comparing a dog turd to a cat turd -- both are turds!

The '08-09 recession really harmed a lot of companies, and many products (and even whole companies) disappeared. The major fact was that semiconductor/chips fabs ceased chips, or just ceased period. That knock-on effect meant old devices could not longer be made, chips no longer fabbed. Many companies tried to substitute, but that failed miserably (example= green vs. black AVT-8710, production changes that tanked Hauppauge/Pinnacle cards, etc)

- The 1990s were for low-quality ingest, pre-mature capture era.
- The 2000s were the ear of SD analog ingest/capture.
- The 2010s were about H.264 "MP4" and HD, nobody cared about SD videotapes anymore, so it was mostly Chinese junk capture cards that came to market.
- The 2020s are just the 2010s on steroids. More Chinese crap, and the used quality cards are disappearing now a fast clip (along with VCRs and TBCs).

Before somebody else mentions it: The new decode/FM methods are not ready for primetime. One step forward, two steps back -- meaning those perform worse than the VCRs from 25+ years ago. All while adding vastly more time to the process, with no real in-the-end costs savings.

For $2K, the best setup would be a dedicated modern(ish) system -- SATA, SSD, multicore CPU, etc -- based on the well-regarded ATI AIW. Most people still build computers for school or video games, not understanding the nifty features available to capturing type setups. Who cares about the OS (XP), or the fact that AIW cards are 20+ years old. The capture experience can be made extremely modern with the right configuration. And that's what I use, and have built for others. (In fact, still building a few for others, and wrapping all those up soon, this month.)

So "the best money can buy" is not about something sold new in stores in 2025, but rather something that can be built in 2025, to meet all your needs, and probably some you never even considered.

[Tooth76]

Thanks for your response.

The PC is not the issue. I have a multiple PC's, the fastest is an AMD ThreadRipper 7970X with 2x RTX A6000, 128GB and lots of M.2 SSD's that does a lot of rendering / AI.

It's more about finding a brand new, high quality analogue (PAL) capture device (internal or external).

It's either "I'll stick to the Canopus / Datavideo I have" or "something new that can be bought new right now and isn't worse than I have".

I have looked at the "VHS Decode" project too, I think it's fun, I may give it a try if I have the time but for now it's too experimental. I need a simple and stable workflow.

I'm lucky to own multiple TBC's. I have 3 VHS recorders with TBC (JVC / Philips) and a TBC-1000 / -3000 / -5000 / Green AVT-8710 and some other TBC's like the "Electronic Design TBC-Enhancer", "Kramer FC400" and probably some more.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tooth76

I have a multiple PC's, the fastest is an AMD ThreadRipper 7970X with 2x RTX A6000, 128GB and lots of M.2 SSD's that does a lot of rendering / AI.

For capturing, none of that matters.
- A single-core P4 CPU from 25 years ago is adequate, but the overhead of a multicore is better (so OS and capture don't share).
- RAM doesn't matter at all.
- 5400rpm HDDs are fast enough, SSD is mostly for non-I/O heat/noise benefits

For capturing, you have to abandon the gamer, or "AI", or even "video editing" (Adobe Premiere = resource hog) type mentality. Capturing is about stable results in a workflow, and "normal" computer specs don't really affect this. It's about "going from point A to point B, with the least issues and resistance". As an example, ejectable drives. Even the formatting of the capture drives matters -- and it's not what 99%+ of computers are set for.

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It's more about finding a brand new, high quality analogue (PAL) capture device (internal or external).

That doesn't exist -- unless you want budget crap, made in China, sold for peanuts (or even overpriced) on Amazon. The era of SD analog capture is decades removed now. The best tools are from that era.

It's sort of like asking for "the newest phone booth", but something from the 1980s (I'm assuming here) is/was best. That was really the EOL for that tech. Anything made now is more like a poor recreation, or an echo, of the quality gear from that era.

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It's either "I'll stick to the Canopus / Datavideo I have" or "something new that can be bought new right now and isn't worse than I have".

If that's your binary choice, "new or nothing", then nothing. The old Canopus DV boxes are lousy. But "brand new" is worse.

You have something like the GV-USB2 cards, which can give lossless results. But those are Japanese cards that only really work well with the Japanese software -- not something standard like VirtualDub. It has flukes, caveats, when it comes to usage (example = histogram usage). And you also have issues with Easycap fakes from China, sold as "made in Japan" on Amazon/Temu/etc. The GV-USB2 is not really "new" anyway. It's a long-lived card that has seen changes over time. Late 00s tech. Most people are best served hunting down a used model compared to the risk/expense of buying it "new" (and hoping it's not fake).

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I have looked at the "VHS Decode" project too, I think it's fun, I may give it a try if I have the time but for now it's too experimental. I need a simple and stable workflow.

It's still a tinker project, a model rocket. Fun for some, but it doesn't get you to the moon (doesn't give the stable results required).

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I'm lucky to own multiple TBC's. I have 3 VHS recorders with TBC (JVC / Philips) and a TBC-1000 / -3000 / -5000 / Green AVT-8710 and some other TBC's like the "Electronic Design TBC-Enhancer", "Kramer FC400" and probably some more.

Good stuff indeed.

It's just a shame that you let a Canopus downgrade the quality from the VCRs/TBCs. The DV boxes, for PAL, toss about 25% of the color data, leaving you with blurry/soft video, as compared with lossless, and maybe even some MPEG.

[Tooth76]

I've compared the quality back in 2000-2005 to other devices. It's not all "black and white".

After >20 years, the Canopus still works, without drivers, without special software (I still use WinDV for capture) and without audio sync issues. I just hook it up to my firewire and it "fires away".

It may not be the absolute best but it has proven to be very stable, never had issues.

I tried ATI (and other products / brands) but it gave me a lot of issues with getting drivers to work and crashes during captures back then. So I forgot about ATI years ago and I'm not going back.

Workflow is important too. I can't sell "I have the best quality but it doesn't work right now" to a customer. It just has too work when I need it

Currently I'm packing all my stuff, bought a house with a dedicated building just for my "hobbies"
I should have enough DV-devices and TBC's for the next ~20 years.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tooth76

I've compared the quality back in 2000-2005 to other devices. It's not all "black and white".

Agreed, definitely not. Everything is shades of gray. But there are aspects that are stark differences, as well as some that are less obvious. I don't focus too much on "less obvious".

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After >20 years, the Canopus still works, without drivers, without special software (I still use WinDV for capture) and without audio sync issues. I just hook it up to my firewire and it "fires away".

The "without drivers" is misleading, because it does depend on the Firewire card/port/drivers. That is a major issue for at least 6 years now, due to how Win10/11 interacts with it, and the hardware still extant.

WinDV is special software.

Sync issues fully depend on the workflow devices (TBCs, etc). It's no more special than any other capture card, in this regard.

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It may not be the absolute best but it has proven to be very stable, never had issues.

For usage, I agree, it's pretty straight-forward to use.

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I tried ATI (and other products / brands) but it gave me a lot of issues with getting drivers to work and crashes during captures back then. So I forgot about ATI years ago and I'm not going back.

ATI drivers are definitely a PITA, no disagreement here.

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Workflow is important too. I can't sell "I have the best quality but it doesn't work right now" to a customer. It just has too work when I need it

For me, that battle has been power-related (even killing UPS at times), and HDD failure (and subsequent switching to SSD). It's all so time consuming. The actual capture cards are rarely the issue.

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Currently I'm packing all my stuff, bought a house with a dedicated building just for my "hobbies"
I should have enough DV-devices and TBC's for the next ~20 years.

A fellow gear hoarder! Nice to meet you!

[Tooth76]

This is all smells too fishy.

I sign up here, post a question about a capture device and I get 2 (!) PM's from user Lordsmurf who wants to sell me a capture system for $2000

Is that how you welcome new members?

I'm done here, I'll find my way out.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tooth76

This is all smells too fishy.
I sign up here, post a question about a capture device and I get 2 (!) PM's from user Lordsmurf who wants to sell me a capture system for $2000

Nope, nothing fishy. As explained, I can build one more capture system. It's going on the marketplace at some point, and then I'm done with building capture systems (probably permanently, but I never say "never"). I owe systems to a couple members here, and those are wrapping up now. As mentioned, I overbought supplies to do it (oops), have an extra HTF/rare AIW PCI, and can build one more system as a result.

You can decline the offer, or even choose not to reply.

And it was one PM that probably sent twice. Sometimes the forum has a "hitch in it's get-along". The new forum software should resolve that.

Having a system for sale does not change anything that has been written in this thread. In fact, the entire reason that I began to refurb gear was because the gear we needed/wanted was getting harder to find, and in poor shape when located. With some occasional capture system building for those who wanted the easy path, the path of least resistance to a quality capturing experience.

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Is that how you welcome new members?

I put "Welcome! " in my first post.

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I'm done here, I'll find my way out.

You were offered something that you were probably interested in -- so you choose to leave?

Some people see conspiracy where none exists. I will never understand that mindset.

Sometimes people are just helpful, and it's not "everybody is out to get you". I've tried to help others online for at least 30 years now.

[Gary34]

That was a strange interaction.
His AMD ThreadRipper 7970X CPU is around $2,000 alone.
The RTX A6000 graphics card is around $5,000 and he has 2 in that computer so $10,000.
Who knows how much that PC cost but then he has many more that is just his main one.

He has a lot of nice TBCs which are also worth quite a bit but chooses DV.

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I sign up here, post a question about a capture device and I get 2 (!) PM's from user Lordsmurf who wants to sell me a capture system for $2000

Here's your question.

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In short: if you ignore the budget (well, limit is ~$2000), what's the best new available analog (PAL) capture device that money can buy you right now (for PC)?

It sound's like he has a good budget and is asking for the best. That's it.

I think he was wanting you to make an offer so he could announce it like that. most people don't announce they are leaving like that. I don't understand why he got upset either. Just a weird enteraction if he's not a troll.

[Tooth76]

Ok, explain me where I got this wrong:

When I sign up to a forum, I don't expect to receive an offer by PM to pay $2000 to someone I don't know and never met, that sounds so scammy.
I was gathering information, not asking to buy a second hand PC or capture device on another continent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

It sound's like he has a good budget and is asking for the best. That's it.

Exactly that.

Imagine you sign up somewhere and within 60 minutes you get some "Nigerian prince" mail from a member you never met before, who can sell you a second hand PC for $2000.

How would you feel? At the Dutch Tweakers forum (member since 2006) this would be reported as "spam" and the user would be banned for a few months (or permanently).

About DV-capture, it's not that bad. I know there's better but after 20 years it never failed me (as long as you feed it with the right signal). I tried all kinds of devices, USB (and ATI) and they all had their problems.

~5 years ago I bought a Blackmagic Design Intensity Shuttle but it never convinced me, tested and compared it for a few days and returned to Canopus.

But it's 2025... and if anything better is available, I'm willing to upgrade. When I search, I find a lot of discussion but no conclusion about what is the best in 2025.

edit: Testing ATI AGP would not be much of a problem for me, I have around 25 "new old stock" S478 / S370 boards available, another 20 used boards and a working S478 system running XP too. I'm all into retro computing from 8088 up to S775.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

That was a strange interaction.

Indeed.

It has resulted in multiple PMs. Those can be summed up with two points:

1. The AIW capture system is now spoken for.
Many people do understand what this quality gear will do for them. And in some cases, the rarity of it. They further understand (and appreciate) the level of detail I put into my gear refurbs, as well as this video capture field/hobby/DIY. And I, in turn, appreciate them. It is truly a community that we have here.

2. When you see somebody who's posting comments that are out of line, you should post your disagreement (or even disgust) at what you've read. Don't let it sit there without retort. Don't just whisper your thoughts in private/PM. Our society has gotten too fearful to speak truth to unreasonableness, conspiracy, etc. Don't live life in fear of others -- I certainly never have.

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Originally Posted by Tooth76

Ok, explain me where I got this wrong:

Sure.

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I was gathering information,

And you got multiple long replies with information.

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When I sign up to a forum, I don't expect to receive an offer

Life is full of the unexpected. I have many stories of neat incidents. Sometimes the stars align. How you react to it is what matters. You seemed to want something, and I thought I'd offer something I had available, as it seemed to meet your wants. Most people politely decline, not stir up internet drama. This isn't Twitter.

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to someone I don't know and never met

You don't know, and have never met, 99.9∞+ of the 8 billion inhabiting this planet. We meet new people all the time.

Again, hello, nice to meet you.

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At the Dutch Tweakers forum (member since 2006) this would be reported as "spam" and the user would be banned for a few months (or permanently).

The admins/mods of that forum would ban themselves?

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About DV-capture, it's not that bad. I know there's better

"It doesn't taste that bad."
"She's not that ugly."
etc

Not a compliment.

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but after 20 years it never failed me (as long as you feed it with the right signal).

"right signal" is a euphemism for something. What does that even mean?

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I tried all kinds of devices, USB (and ATI) and they all had their problems.

- "all kinds" = nothingburger statement = give details.
- "ATI" is/was a brand. Which cards, specifically?
- What were each of those problems?

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~5 years ago I bought a Blackmagic Design Intensity Shuttle but it never convinced me, tested and compared it for a few days and returned to Canopus.

Back around 2009, when BM cards were announced at NAB, I was so hopeful. But it quickly became evident that the cards had low-quality SD abilities. That was really the last gasp of SD analog videotape ingest, especially for consumer formats. Osprey/Aja had some things, but nothing impressive. Matrox MX02 is better than DV, but still fiddly in usage.

When it comes to capturing -- especially if you do anything to scale (hobby, pro/work, even DIY) -- you need a painless process. If it's just your own tapes, and just a few (dozen or less), then feel free to do whatever complicated cockamamie thing you want. It will take lots of time, but some people have time to burn (mostly school/college-aged kids). Others realize the value of time, and some need ROI (return on time invested, in this case).

- DV will give you that, but at quite reduced quality.
- The "new"/2010s hardware (some fancy, some Chinese crap) will not give you that. ie Blackmagic, Easycaps, Elgatos, etc.
- Better quality lossless can give you that -- but only if it's setup to accomplish that goal. Again, it's not about dick-measuring CPU/RAM type specs to make gamers drool, but the data flow. I can capture AIW to SSD on dedicated capture system, eject and edit on my main video system.

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But it's 2025... and if anything better is available, I'm willing to upgrade. When I search, I find a lot of discussion but no conclusion about what is the best in 2025.

Nothing exists, nothing will exist.
- The era of converting videotapes was the 2000s.
- The 2010s was the era of redoing botched projects, mostly from the now-bankrupt 2000s hucksters that told you that your tapes were "fading" (anti-science BS), or that they'd somehow mysteriously self-destruct in 2-5 years.
- The 2020s are the procrastinators**. There's no market for new hardware to exist, no growth/demand exists. The demand that does exist is well served by the extant used/refurb'd gear.

(**Or new kids that are just discovering VHS tapes at grandma's house or the thrift store. They're too often wholly unwilling to spend any money, nor care if they ruin all of it. "Hahaha", they say. And yet, those same kids have ridiculous-priced $1k iPhones, $1k gamer graphics cards, etc. Money is about priorities, and too many see no value in "old" VHS at their young/naive age.)

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edit: Testing ATI AGP would not be much of a problem for me, I have around 25 "new old stock" S478 / S370 boards available, another 20 used boards and a working S478 system running XP too. I'm all into retro computing from 8088 up to S775.

Old P4 boards are just painful to use. Certain AGP+PCIe/~2010 era Asrock are really a minimum now. But even then, it can be aggravating for the I/O, slows the flow. There are some ~2018 Gigabytes that I build on, with i3 (because low-heat matters), but you have to have the right AIW card version, the right TBSC, and then the OS install (and drivers) is not elegant or dummy-friendly.

When I'm done with all my builds, I'll probably put all of it into a guide (and mostly for myself, so I don't forget anything; just shared with all). But even then, it's not something that rank novices will find easy to do. It is "the best" we can get, but some are willing to trade down to lesser/easier lossless certain-Pinnacle USB (which is still better than DV).

Gone are the says when I could write "Yes, buy this, here's the Amazon link." (Actually more like B&H, Circuit City, Frys, eCost -- not Amazon.)

[Tooth76]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Indeed.

Old P4 boards are just painful to use. Certain AGP+PCIe/~2010 era Asrock are really a minimum now. But even then, it can be aggravating for the I/O, slows the flow. There are some ~2018 Gigabytes that I build on, with i3 (because low-heat matters), but you have to have the right AIW card version, the right TBSC, and then the OS install (and drivers) is not elegant or dummy-friendly.

Not sure how my AGP ATI AIW 7500 card would fit in a PCIe system.
You probably missed the "AGP" part in my comment
But I have other ATI hardware too, I just don't have any USB ATI devices. Only AGP that I bought second hand ~20 years ago.

I packed 2x ATI AIW 7500 with all the cables so after I move to my new home, I'll give them a try and compare it to my DV devices.

My first capture device in 2000/2001 was a second hand Pinnacle DC10+. It required an Intel chipset to work properly. Intel BX or 815 was fine. The result wasn't horrible (MJPEG output iirc) but the Canopus blew it out of the water. I tried ATI and it was not very stable but maybe with updated drivers and the right hardware, it can be fixed.

But as I understand, you own this site?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tooth76

Not sure how my AGP ATI AIW 7500 card would fit in a PCIe system.
You probably missed the "AGP" part in my comment

The Asrock works with both AGP and PCIe. But latter boards are PCI only (not PCIe, not AGP). It's sort of reverse timeline for best experience now. The oldest cards are now best for modern systems, but also far less produced (thus rarer), and "wrong" versions exist. Condition also matters, too many eBay sellers are idiots, and don't know what a box is (bubble envelope + mail goons + computer card = kibble).

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But I have other ATI hardware too, I just don't have any USB ATI devices.

There are AIW USB -- but again, versions exist, must be careful.

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I packed 2x ATI AIW 7500 with all the cables so after I move to my new home, I'll give them a try and compare it to my DV devices.

Just don't give up on the AIW too quickly, out of frustration. The AIW is also just video, it slaves to an audio card. But it needs to be quality, hence TBSC (Turtle Beach Santa Cruz -- and again, versions).

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My first capture device in 2000/2001 was a second hand Pinnacle DC10+. It required an Intel chipset to work properly. Intel BX or 815 was fine. The result wasn't horrible (MJPEG output iirc) but the Canopus blew it out of the water.

Early Pinnacle cards were pretty terrible. MJPEG wasn't much different from MPEG in theory, but in practice was worse. It was the quality of the cards, not really the MJPEG aspect. For PAL, there's not much difference between high-bitrate MPEG, MJPEG, and DV. All are 4:2:0, though different axis. For NTSC, the 4:1: color compression is just draconian awful, very destructive.

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I tried ATI and it was not very stable but maybe with updated drivers and the right hardware, it can be fixed.

If your last experience was 2001, then you were dealing with pre-Catalyst drivers, and MMC 7.x generation software. That stuff was awful. MMC 8, the last pre-Catalyst, and early/mid Catalyst, were really game changers to how the card performed. It was already quite good, but it got vastly better. That was really the sweet spot for analog videotape capturing.

For years, I also wanted a better card.
From a technical POV, there was zero reason we couldn't have a card that gave us:
- chroma NR (cNR) option
- degrain NR option
- MPEG 4:2:2 at 15-50mbit, in addition to lossless
- Mac drivers
- x86 + x64 drivers
- higher quality audio (ie, no eMPIA/Realtek, but more like TBSC)
- verbose drop/insert frames reporting for codec-internalized cards (DV, MPEG)
- line TBC chip (not Analog Devices, not beta/early Panasonic)

We did some features randomly, but never together. Heck, not even good when in isolation.
For example:
- LSI with cNR in the aborted Creative card
- MMC degrain was too hamfisted.
- MPEG was was 4:2:0 (lowly DVD-Video spec) in MPEG cards
- drivers were often XP x86 only (not even x64 XP), pathetic Vista updates in many/most cases (and even the so-called "modern" Win7/8/10/11 is still based on Vista drivers) -- ie, why Crossbar Thing is often required.
- lack of reporting led to myths about "dOeSn'T dRoP FrAmEs".
- the line TBC chip in the ADVC-300 was so crappy that it generally added iusses, or did nothing at all, and was the early Panasonic.

So you're coming somewhat late to the party. No more food, beer is warm piss, everybody left. Lots of memories of what happened, and/or what could have happened, plus what didn't/never happened.

The "modern" Chinese cards are just reverse engineered schlock, using the cheapest garbage ever made. Those Easycaps are 2000s designs. The Dazzles are actually 90s designs from the former Dazzle company, resold by Pinnacle/Avid/Coral/Alludo because (honestly) people are dumb enough to buy them.

There's also SDI gear, like Snell, but those have their own caveats, being closed-loop systems. And it's sort of like what you alluded to with DV, it has to be the "right signal" to cooperate. But again with nuisance non-standard software, even finicky IE 5 web browser requirements. When it comes to capture PITA, "pick your poison". The DV path crippled your quality by a %, but it's easy. I have higher-quality AIW/Pinnacle setups, but those are only easy usage after setup.

I think your plan to revisit and test AIW is good. Do that.