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10-31-2022, 11:07 AM
garfungle garfungle is offline
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With the lack of supply of any Datavideo TBC-XXXX, I was wondering if anyone had considered an effort to design an open TBC from scratch? I imagine with the extensive knowledge on this forum, you could design a schematic for the TBC and ensure that the hardware is preserved/modernized and readily available for many hobbyists to build their own TBC. If this hasn't been attempted before, I'd at least like to take a look at this. If anyone has detailed pictures of the PCBs for the Datavideo series, I could get started on a circuit design. I can only imagine that the costs for these external TBCs is expensive because of the lack of supply and it's only going to get worse before someone takes it upon themselves to modernize the external TBC. Let me know if this is way harder than I think it is. I'm just trying to ensure that hobbyists aren't getting priced out of video preservation.
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  #2  
10-31-2022, 11:37 AM
zinkatres zinkatres is offline
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Seems like that would be an interesting idea. I did happen to run across this not too long ago while reading about TBCs in various forums. Looks like at least one other person had your same idea back in 2001....wonder if it could be modified for current available components.

https://web.archive.org/web/20181219...ewvidproc.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20051101...ate/tbcsch.jpg


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  #3  
10-31-2022, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garfungle View Post
I was wondering if anyone had considered an effort to design an open TBC from scratch? I imagine with the extensive knowledge on this forum, you could design a schematic for the TBC and ensure that the hardware is preserved/modernized and readily available for many hobbyists to build their own TBC.
It's not as easy as you're thinking.

Quote:
I can only imagine that the costs for these external TBCs is expensive because of the lack of supply
That's not accurate. Most TBCs now have to be refurbished, and that weighs on the costs. It's tedious, costly. This isn't as easy as building a PC, but rather more along the lines of restoring a classic car. The parts to repair are obscure, and it often takes harvesting multiple units to create a single good unit.

Quote:
Let me know if this is way harder than I think it is. I'm just trying to ensure that hobbyists aren't getting priced out of video preservation.
TBCs really are not that costly, neither historically, nor compared to tools for hobbies (not even professionally, just consumer hobby/DIY). Video is a cheap hobby, a few grand gets you everything you'd ever want or need. Compare that to something like photography, sewing, or action figure collecting. It all has costs. It was never the price of a Raspberry Pi, or some cheap Amazon/eBay Chinese garbage. People spend huge sums on computers, but get all cheap and pissy when told a TBC costs less than that overly fancy "gaming", video/photo editing, or Mac computer.

Perspective is needed.

Quote:
With the lack of supply of any Datavideo TBC-XXXX
DataVideo is simply some of the TBCs, and not even necessarily "the best" TBC. Just better (ie, good, better, best).

That said, I often have multiple TBCs in the marketplace -- as do some others, sometimes even reselling gear originally from me, ie "buy it, use it, resell it". (In fact I'll be listing multiple units this coming weekend. I'm finally finishing my various backlogs, including gear refurbs.)

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  #4  
10-31-2022, 11:49 AM
garfungle garfungle is offline
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Something like this is the perfect place to start! I wonder how the performance of this compares to the Datavideo TBCs. I can start with this to create an initial design -- just might need to make some substitutions for parts no longer manufactured.
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  #5  
10-31-2022, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by garfungle View Post
Something like this is the perfect place to start! I wonder how the performance of this compares to the Datavideo TBCs. I can start with this to create an initial design -- just might need to make some substitutions for parts no longer manufactured.
That diagram is sorely lacking, and 20 years outdated in terms of parts. There's not easy substitution, and in fact that the reason Cypress and DataVideo no longer made TBCs -- chips needed no longer fabbed. That, and the low ROI, lack of market for these products.

There is plenty of extant gear out there. The "problem" is being cheap about it, and you cannot be cheap to R&D something. Costs are way higher than you think. This will cost money, no matter how you approach it.

We already has this discussion here:
https://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/new...ter-build.html
Note that the thread was hijacked by vhs-decode devs/fanboys, and ended up locked, both OT and misinformation.

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  #6  
10-31-2022, 12:48 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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The problem is not in the passive components such as transistors, resistors and capacitors where you can look for modern substitutes, It's the chips themselves. There is no substitute for chips, you would have to redesign the entire ADC system with modern chips, not substitute. If you would have to do this you will be working in FPGA environment, proprietary system is a thing of the past and bloody expensive to design, There are good FPGA evaluation boards out here that work pretty good with VHS, if you wish to use one of them and work on adding S-Video out which requires adding a DAC chip, not needed honestly but some prefer an analog output for whatever reason.

If you are good on coding you should be able to do it avoiding the middle man services such as circuit design, routing, firmware writing, If not the final product won't be cheap, because you have to factor in all the expenses (at least several tens of thousands) and depends on the demand it could be cheaper later but you have to rely on early adopters and make a bold prediction on how many they'll be and figure out the price per item.

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  #7  
10-31-2022, 01:21 PM
garfungle garfungle is offline
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It seems like the route to go with a standard IC approach is out because certain ICs aren't manufactured anymore. From the thread that LS posted, I saw a reference to an FPGA based solution that signmai took. I'm just trying to understand all of the different ways people have tried to "modernize" the external TBC. There's obviously also the route of using VHS-Decode and relying on a software TBC. I can see the counterpoints to this that LS made on the thread and the preference for the Datavideo TBCs as being the most affordable route. It seems like this seems to be a very polarizing topic based on the previous forum thread. I'm just trying to collect the resources on this topic into one spot for my own reference. Thanks for providing some resources so far!
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  #8  
10-31-2022, 02:03 PM
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Newbies tend to run around, like dogs sniffing for bones.

- Singmai isn't impressive in the least.
- vhs-decode is still a buggy proof-of-contept alpha grade hobby tinker toy (though with potential, maybe). And no, there is no "software TBC" as of yet, and may never be. Software in an x86 environment will not work, dedicated hardware will be required for that project to ever get anywhere.

It's only a polarizing topic when cost is the basis, specifically trying to be a cheapskate. If you want to be cheap, just cram it through a DVD recorder, and deal with whatever crap it barfs out. But quality requires quality tools, and you won't get that from amateur hour "solutions" (not really solutions).

Most of the people who suggest designing a TBC from scratch couldn't design a straight line with a ruler. Yes, that sounds harsh, but I've been down this rabbit hole for over a decade now. The odds of anybody suggesting anything that I've not already looked into is extremely low. You have no idea how much time and money I've invested in failed endeavors, and it often disgusts me to think about it.

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  #9  
10-31-2022, 02:42 PM
garfungle garfungle is offline
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I'm purely just interested from an engineering perspective. I work as a software/computer/electrical engineering and have seen through products that have been fielded in production and have the education to back it up. I'm just trying to gather information on a topic... I feel like these forums should be trying to promote educating people and encouraging people to do these designs. From the first couple of posts I've made, it's discouraging to be met with the mentality that this is a stupid idea and proceeding to bash me as being "cheap". Even though you won't outright say it or claim you're being a "realist". I can respect your background and understand that you've spent more time and money than I have in this field, but I'm just trying to gather information on a topic related to designing an external TBC. Bashing the idea is counter productive to the topic that I decided to open a forum post on. If this is forum is not for educating people interested in preserving information in a digital format, then I guess I made this forum post on the wrong site and I apologize for wasting your time.
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  #10  
10-31-2022, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garfungle View Post
I'm purely just interested from an engineering perspective. I work as a software/computer/electrical engineering and have seen through products that have been fielded in production and have the education to back it up. I'm just trying to gather information on a topic...
but I'm just trying to gather information on a topic related to designing an external TBC.
Research is always admirable.

Quote:
I feel like these forums should be trying to promote educating people and encouraging people to do these designs.
I think you're getting the wrong idea here. It's not about discouragement, but rather a douse of cold water. A dose of realism, of the many challenges to this. This conversation is cyclical, for years, and is always a "hey guys, we can do it!" or "why can't we just make a perfect __?" (TBC, VCR, capture card, etc), but it's just enthusiasm without effort, direction, understanding, time, skill. It gets tedious. So we just nip it early.

Quote:
and proceeding to bash me as being "cheap".
To do this properly, you'll need multiple TBCs to test a prototype against. There's only so much that can be conveyed with words, or videos, or whatever. You must see a TBC in action. That alone tends to halt any interest in this. After all, as stated, the desire for a new TBC is almost always the desire to avoiding buying a TBC.

Quote:
From the first couple of posts I've made, it's discouraging to be met with the mentality that this is a stupid idea
Bashing the idea is counter productive to the topic
Nobody said it was a stupid idea, or "bashing" anything. But there are extreme challenges to it, for all the reasons stated. This will be a major endeavor, with many costs. Are you prepared for that? Because buying a refurbished TBC will be cheaper, easier. You can use the hardware, rather than create it, reinvent the wheel.

Quote:
Even though you won't outright say it or claim you're being a "realist". I can respect your background and understand that you've spent more time and money than I have in this field,
Yep.

Quote:
that I decided to open a forum post on. If this is forum is not for educating people interested in preserving information in a digital format, then I guess I made this forum post on the wrong site and I apologize for wasting your time.
Feel free to discuss.

And for TBCs, you are at the right site.

You asked the question, you got answers. If you want to press on, go for it. But I guarantee you'll hit the same brick walls. And again, you'll need to buy multiple known-good TBCs for a comparative basis. This isn't something you can do blindly, from a spec sheet drawn on a napkin.

That asks the question: Why do you want to do this? Because, again, the tools exist. You don't have to DIY the hardware before you DIY the video conversion. If you work in software, and want to help the community, it would be useful to create something that does not exist: ATI AIW drivers for 64-bit Windows (at least 7, if not 10). Perhaps figure out why Win10 updates nuked ATI 600 USB usage. There are definite needs, and we'd all be grateful if those got solved.

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  #11  
10-31-2022, 04:29 PM
garfungle garfungle is offline
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That asks the question: Why do you want to do this? Because, again, the tools exist. You don't have to DIY the hardware before you DIY the video conversion. If you work in software, and want to help the community, it would be useful to create something that does not exist: ATI AIW drivers for 64-bit Windows (at least 7, if not 10). Perhaps figure out why Win10 updates nuked ATI 600 USB usage. There are definite needs, and we'd all be grateful if those got solved.
I don't really have any interest in writing windows device drivers in my free time. It just seems like an external TBC is a piece of hardware that runs the risk of becoming more rare or having fewer people who know/care how to service it. It also seemed like the algorithms should be pretty simple to implement in hardware/software. There's algorithms that are definitely more complex than what a frame TBC is trying to accomplish. I'm just asking if anyone has any references or has tried to do this in the past. I understand that it's difficult and expensive.
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10-31-2022, 05:13 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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A TBC is exactly a video capture device, The only reason why it converts back to analog is that back in the day there is no possibility to process and store that amount of data into a computer that barely does Word processing.

You don't really have to design this from scratches, Everything is available, just connect them together for testing and protyping, Once you have a working prototype you can proceed from there with your own customized model, When we say this is costly we are just trying to save people from making costly mistakes from miss information or lack of knowledge, But if you are into it and have the knowledge about how VCR signals work, how timing and noise reduction work as well as the coding skills to assemble and debug circuits then you already know more than the average of us here. But the idea of just TBC is not going to cut it, There are more important problems in the capturing process than the TBC, For instance, you don't want to be relying on the existing crappy capture cards or old legacy cards that no longer work under newer operating systems, When you make a new device you should address all problems at once or at least address the ADC part and once the analog signal is digitized, timed, cleaned and available in digital, there are much much better ways to get that digital signal into a modern computer, One of them is the Singmai solution you mentioned by using SDI and then from there a SDI-USB interface is used, widely supported by any newer operating system and it's essentially data transfer since there is no analog signal involved.

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  #13  
11-01-2022, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by garfungle View Post
I don't really have any interest in writing windows device drivers in my free time.
And yet, it would probably be orders of magnitude easier to do.

Quote:
It also seemed like the algorithms should be pretty simple to implement
This also "seems" easy enough to do: walk up to a random gorgeous woman, and ask if she wants to have a quick shag. Simple, right? But it probably won't go down as easy as you think. Or at all. And there may be some bad outcomes. That's my entire point here. "It's just" and "it seems" and "probably" are always the lingo of these conversations.

To go back a few more posts, those conversations often end with "how dare you tell me how hard it is!" (facts, science, realism), when a seasoned video user enters the fray, and put an end to the somewhat naןve/quaint/newbie notion. And it's not always me. That new users are thinking of these things is great, but you do need to realize you're not first, nor likely last. It certainly will not be accomplished with off-the-shelf parts, defaults, kits, etc.

Quote:
I'm just asking if anyone has any references or has tried to do this in the past.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Everything is available, just connect them together for testing and protyping,
Not really. For the past decade, people have said that about Analog Devices dev boards. But those chips will not cut it, and actually more often make the signal worse. It's a sucky chip, and is likely why manufacturers like Blackmagic simply disable the functionality. It's not anything new, but rather from the era when TBCs started to get crappy ("black" Cypress, "blue" DataVideo, etc). There is a slight chance that the chip can be leveraged with a custom firmware, but the defaults are crap.

Quote:
But the idea of just TBC is not going to cut it, There are more important problems in the capturing process than the TBC, For instance, you don't want to be relying on the existing crappy capture cards or old legacy cards that no longer work under newer operating systems,
Yep.

Priorities should be =
- fixing the ATI AIW drivers (USB, PCI, AGP, PCIe)
- fixing some messy flaws added to the PCIe generation drivers

That would suddenly unlock lots of quality hardware that is currently selling at a discount (mostly the PCIe and AGP, not PCI or USB).

So in terms of "good for the community", this would go much farther than trying to sink money into TBCs, to create a slightly less costly (but likely much harder to DIY create) frame TBCs. And that overlooks line TBCs, quality S-VHS VCR still needed.

Quote:
When you make a new device you should address all problems at once or at least address the ADC part and once the analog signal is digitized, timed, cleaned and available in digital, there are much much better ways to get that digital signal into a modern computer,
This not true because of latter workflow chain devices, such as proc amp or detailers. If adding audio, then mixers. Now, if you want to integrate those as well, great, then you can bypass all analog into digital. Software cannot process analog domain issues such as YPrPb color, detail or sharpness (and coring, etc), or audio levels. Once it gets baked digital, you're screwed. The best is to use analog methods as pre-process (pre-capture), and software to post-process (post-capture).

That said, basic workflows are just VCR > TBC > capture card. So if you're only aiming at the lowest-rung hobby/DIY user (that is seeking quality conversions), it would work. But for more serious hobby and pro, it'd be a non-starter.

What exists now (SDI appliances) was never really intended for consumer sources (especially not VHS), and is iffy to outright unworkable in multiple scenarios. I know you've opted for SDI, and thus far (at least from what you've stated), it has worked well. And I'm glad for you! But others have not had that same experience. There's always somebody that is an exception to the rule, be it dumb luck, or the stars aligning in your favor. But do realize you're an exception, not the rule. I can't remember anything offhand, but I know I've had this dumb luck myself. I didn't care how, I was just thankful it did.

Quote:
One of them is the Singmai solution you mentioned by using SDI and then from there a SDI-USB interface is used, widely supported by any newer operating system and it's essentially data transfer since there is no analog signal involved.
I've yet to see any evidence that the Singmai device has any sort of quality TBC in it. Just promises, with lots of blatantly obvious omissions from documentation and samples thus far. I've been down that path before, and that yellow brick road is suddenly quicksand. Different company name, same BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garfungle
...
In the grand scheme of things, by going down this "opensource TBC" path, all you'd be doing (is wasting your own money and time (not sure which is worst here, time v. money, both will be bottomless pits), for something most people still would not opt for.

Even worse, some Chinese bastards would take your open design, cheap it to hell and back, and release some POS "TBC" on Amazon or Wish for $99. They'd use your designs to make something that only barely resembles a TBC, and take full advantage of "TBC" being a loose term. Worst of all, it may give TBCs a bad name, because the crap flooded the market. Again, realism, factual. This already happened with capture cards (aka, that is almost literally the Easycap story), and they tried (and thankfully failed) with VCRs. It'd be a massive step back for video.

When you've been around video for decades, you see what happens. When you've been around for 2 minutes, you're unaware of challenges and potential negative outcomes. That's the advice I try to dole out, save you from yourself, from your own (often wrong) instincts. Video isn't like other fields, there is lots of wibbly-wobbly aspects to it that must be navigated, especially in regards to the capture/ingest niche.

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  #14  
11-01-2022, 02:45 AM
traal traal is offline
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Device driver development is specialized work, I don't know anyone who can do it. The best I can do is write user mode code that talks to FTDI chips because it's no different than talking to RS-232, the driver is already written and that saves the cost of hiring a kernel mode developer.

Plus you'll need documentation or at least Linux source code to port a driver to Windows.

I'd like to be wrong on this. It would be a pleasant surprise.
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  #15  
11-01-2022, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traal View Post
Device driver development is specialized work, I don't know anyone who can do it. The best I can do is write user mode code that talks to FTDI chips because it's no different than talking to RS-232, the driver is already written and that saves the cost of hiring a kernel mode developer.

Plus you'll need documentation or at least Linux source code to port a driver to Windows.

I'd like to be wrong on this. It would be a pleasant surprise.
In the specific case of the ATI AIW, I think it's more about hacking, using existing unofficial and office x64 drivers. jwillis84 made some interesting forays here, but then had to back out due to time, not wanting to fall down yet another rabbit hole.

I got ATI AIW to work on x86 WinVista and Win7, more than 10 years ago, but it was messy. At reboot, it'd always forget the card, and you'd have to reinstall, but that reinstall didn't always take. I've never been a software coder, just competent enough to hack and rewrite hardware firmware/software.

This exact project has always been feasible from what I can tell. But outside my grasp. jwillis84 was the only one to seriously look into it, and he saw even more potential than I did.

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  #16  
11-01-2022, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by traal View Post
Plus you'll need documentation or at least Linux source code to port a driver to Windows.
.
The ATI 600 usb and related cards have a well working linux driver, though I reckon it would probably easier to develop a better capture app for linux (maybe some ffmpeg shell of some sort.) That would also make it simpler to adjust chips registers on supported capture devices manually if wanted so one is not as dependent on shitty windows drivers to have decent defaults. I'm not convinced the ATI AIW cards are so magical that they are worth bothering with these days (they're gonna be a bit limited by the TBC which they require in any case.) though developing a driver for those would probably be very difficult due to lack of documentation.ררררררררררררררררררר

For another deep dive on TBC implementations, this video might be interesting. It's about a custom tbc/converter design a guy made for some time seemingly used by a number of people in Europe that used somewhat similar hardware to the cypress/AVT tbc boxes. I haven't tested them myself so can't speak on how they perform but since they use similar video ics at least it's probably not too different from the good avt-8710 tbcs.
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  #17  
11-02-2022, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The ATI 600 usb and related cards have a well working linux driver,
It requires a card hack, it doesn't leave the card unmolested.

Quote:
though I reckon it would probably easier to develop a better capture app for linux
Yes!

Quote:
(maybe some ffmpeg shell of some sort.)
Probably not.

Quote:
That would also make it simpler to adjust chips registers on supported capture devices manually if wanted so one is not as dependent on shitty windows drivers to have decent defaults.
Yep.

Quote:
I'm not convinced the ATI AIW cards are so magical that they are worth bothering with these days (they're gonna be a bit limited by the TBC which they require in any case.)
TBC is required for all cards, it's not an ATI issue, but an analog issue. AIW is quality due to the values being accurate, whereas everything else tends to clip illegals, alter values, etc. It also seems to retain detail far better than some of the other cards. Only something like Osprey tends to come close, another OS locked card.

Quote:
developing a driver for those would probably be very difficult due to lack of documentation.
I'm not so sure about this. Rage3D archives may hold clues.

Quote:
For another deep dive on TBC implementations, this video might be interesting. It's about a custom tbc/converter design a guy made for some time
That wasn't a custom/DIY TBC, but a sold product through multiple stores worldwide (imports from Europe, mostly). Colin and Gordon are nice gents, and that's an interesting somewhat historical video. But that ACE box is junk. I came across it about 20 years ago, the latter "improved" 2nd version. Not suggested. I've been more than a decade since I last tested it, so not using my even-more-stringent criteria yet. The standards conversion was horrid, low end Cyberhome/etc DVD recorders were better.

Quote:
somewhat similar hardware to the cypress/AVT tbc boxes.
No.

Quote:
I haven't tested them myself so can't speak on how they perform but since they use similar video ics at least it's probably not too different from the good avt-8710 tbcs.
Software on chips also matters, not simply the chips. Cypress had a bitlocked secret sauce.

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  #18  
02-04-2023, 02:29 AM
mrmuy97 mrmuy97 is offline
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You could have a look at the Kona LSe which was made for SD only, and is the only one of those cards that specifically states in the specs that it has a "broadcast-quality TBC with VHS support." (see attached) I've been wanting to pick one up myself to run captures with and without line and frame TBCs to see what it's made of, but I doubt I'll end up having time for that, so hopefully someone else will do it. Maybe it's nothing special, but you never know. There have been a few intriguing nuggets posted about it. Those cards are currently harder to find than their HD counterparts from that time. I've seen big Leitch PCI TBC cards on eBay too, but can find zero info or specs on the model #s anywhere online. Perhaps you could grab one of the best TBC units like an early bv10 that is 100% gone through by LS and fully configured and try to dump all the code and redo it all to run on a new hardware config. I have no idea how any of that goes. If you did manage to find a vintage card that had some amazing TBC funtionality, or if you took apart a top-tier TBC, dumping all the code and completely rewriting/rebuilding it for newer hardware sounds like a crazy amount of work. Is all the code encrypted or secured in some way that you'd have to deal with before even getting to the work of modifying it?

I don't doubt that it's possible. Just a matter of if it will actually be done by a person/group with enough creativity, willpower, knowledge, skill, resources, etc to complete a project of that magnitude. And be done before all the remaining good VCRs, VHS tapes, etc, have all expired. Personally I'm all for making the most of what's already out there. Keep grabbing inexpensive but good vintage capture cards that aren't widely known and see how they work. Maybe find some unicorns and a bunch of people can buy up the last remaining stock of them for the low prices they go for on eBay. But a refreshed TBC as good as the best units of old while being brand new and many multiples less expensive would really be some achievement.


Attached Files
File Type: pdf KONA_Line.pdf (578.6 KB, 11 downloads)

recommended vcr+line tbc ---(y/c)--> lordsmurf frame tbc ---(sdi+y/c)--> capture in windows 7
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