MiniDV transfer complete, next steps?

[Eagleaye]

Hello, after some time away from my project to digitise my family home videos that are on we a few different formats I’m now revisiting and hoping to get some current advice on best practice.

I’m going to start with minidv tapes, I think I’ve got my transfer method sorted using Scenealyzer live on Windows 7 to copy the tapes via firewire. I’ve used the softwares tape index function, compiling clips to scenes then batch transferring them to create the avi files ScLive output, is this a good method, are there any particular settings I should be aware of or use?
As a side note I’m guessing using the JVC camcorder that recorded the tapes is best and that using a Canon model doesn’t offer any advantage?

I’m a little confused about what the next step should be though. The initial goal is to create DVD’s to view on a 55” 4k TV for family distribution, keepin lossless files on a server as an archive for future distribution methods i.e. flash drives, streaming, phone/tablet viewing etc.

I originally thought I’d just load the transferred files into a NLE add some title screens etc. and burn to DVD because they’re just “1’s and 0’s “ and quality couldn’t be improved further.
After scanning the forums though it seems the next step should be to decode the lossy DV files to lossless working files as a certain amount of restoration, cleanup or improvement is achievable.

Is this the case and if so what is the recommended software tool to do this and what format/codec (Lagarith?) should be used to make archival files?

I’ve also read that Hybrid is a “go to” software tool and another approach is to run the avi files through it to deinterlace using QTGMC, then convert to H.264/265 (in MP4 container). Is this a different pathway or is it a way to create steaming media.

Am I on the right track or way off the mark? Any guidance, suggestions or ideas greatly appreciated.

[aramkolt]

I'll be interested to hear what other people say to use for specific tools, but since your DV files are already interlaced, you should be able to make 480i DVDs out of them without a deinterlace. Most consumer-made DVDs are 480i, but DVDs can also be 480p if encoded correctly. Most people just rely on the DVD player to handle deinterlacing at the time of playback and don't make 480p encoded DVDs. Where it gets more messy is if you want to edit the files at all in terms of trimming or image adjustment as many of the tools that don't "re-encode" with editing won't do it losslessly depending on what you're doing.

The easier question to answer from above is that there isn't a particular advantage to using any specific DV player if you're capturing DV tape through firewire as it is already a lossless digital transfer of what is on the tape - assuming your tapes play back and visually look ok. There are some advanced DV players that can play certain non-standard LP DV recordings where no other player than the deck that made the recording can. This is a relatively rare situation, but critical if you do have LP tapes that refuse to play.

[Gary34]

You are on the right track but Hybrid can’t encode to Mpeg2 so it isn’t used for making DVDs. No one here makes DVDs now anyways because of the bitrate limits and the fact that it is 4:2:0. The only arguement for using MPEG 2 is at non DVD specs.

You would use Hybrid to filter and encode to H.264 or encode to another losslessly compressed codec so you could edit color in RGB in an NLE.

[radiokom]

Yes, no one (or should not) make DVD these days. Any TV accept USB flash, at least last 15 years.
Simply save your original avi for archive and convert to H.264 Mpeg4 progressive.
I use Adobe Premiere 6 for that purpose.

[aramkolt]

You can also upload videos to YouTube in an unlisted/private playlist and distribute that way with the link to a playlist of the unlisted videos, but but I could see DVD being an inexpensive way to distribute to family members that may have very little technical knowhow but that do have a DVD player. Flash drives are also cheap, more durable, quite a bit faster to put media onto (no burning time), and you can update or add to it later. I wouldn't archive to DVD alone, but I could see it being a useful option to have in certain situations as a distribution media.

Just throwing this out there for those interested in DVDs or MPEG2 reference files - there's a free Mac application called "Burn" that'll convert anything to DVD compatible MPEG2 files (and actually burn them as a DVD if you want) and works well with 720x480 sources and does get the 4:3 aspect conversion correct. What impresses me most is the extremely fast encode time and the fact that Macs never were really as supportive of MPEG2 file creation as Windows apps.

I've attached a short 9Kb/s MPG file that it made with "Burn" from a ProRes422HQ capture off of a Umatic tape via composite. This was actually a 720x486 resolution file going into the conversion. The original ProRes422HQ file is over 10x larger in size and you really can't see much degradation of quality. I think having a sort of "reference library" of MPEG2 files stored on your main computer is reasonable for casual viewing since they take up waaaaaaay less space and most applications know that they are "supposed to" deinterlace MPEG2 files and will just do it automatically as you watch.

[lordsmurf]

Welcome back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagleaye

I’m a little confused about what the next step should be though. The initial goal is to create DVD’s to view on a 55” 4k TV for family distribution, keepin lossless files on a server as an archive for future distribution methods i.e. flash drives, streaming, phone/tablet viewing etc.

That plan is fine.
What are your distribution needs? (Older family members with DVD players, so they need DVDs?)

Quote:

I originally thought I’d just load the transferred files into a NLE add some title screens etc. and burn to DVD because they’re just “1’s and 0’s “ and quality couldn’t be improved further.
After scanning the forums though it seems the next step should be to decode the lossy DV files to lossless working files as a certain amount of restoration, cleanup or improvement is achievable.

For real editing, yes, extracting back to lossless is suggested.

Quote:

I’ve also read that Hybrid is a “go to” software tool and another approach is to run the avi files through it to deinterlace using QTGMC, then convert to H.264/265 (in MP4 container). Is this a different pathway or is it a way to create steaming media.

It's the ideal way for creating streaming media.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I'll be interested to hear what other people say to use for specific tools, but since your DV files are already interlaced, you should be able to make 480i DVDs out of them without a deinterlace.

Correct, do not deinterlace for DVD. Needs repeating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary34

No one here makes DVDs now anyways because of the bitrate limits and the fact that it is 4:2:0. The only arguement for using MPEG 2 is at non DVD specs.

No, DVDs are still made, distributed, sold. Still demand. Just far less now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by radiokom

Yes, no one (or should not) make DVD these days. Any TV accept USB flash, at least last 15 years..

Neither are true. "Smart" TVs are really dumb at accepting files on USB drives. And DVDs still have a place in society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

You can also upload videos to YouTube in an unlisted/private playlist and distribute that way with the link to a playlist

This is a terrible plan for distributing family videos. It's not private, just "unlisted". The whole world can still find and see the video. There are people who guess at URLs to find "hidden" (unlisted) videos.

Quote:

I wouldn't archive to DVD alone, but I could see it being a useful option to have in certain situations as a distribution media.

Yes, this. Not the "only" archive, but "one of" the archived. Remember, optical single-layer DVD media does have archival quality, unlike "clouds" or HDD/SSD.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Yes, this. Not the "only" archive, but "one of" the archived. Remember, optical single-layer DVD media does have archival quality, unlike "clouds" or HDD/SSD.

If it is well known good brand and held in cool, dark and dry place. One day in direct sunlight and it's dead.

I use RAID1 with 2 HDD from different manufacturers (for example Toshiba and WD). Possibilty they both will die at the same moment is close to 0. And even in this case at least one of them could be repairable in laboratory.

[Eagleaye]

Thanks for the replies.

lordsmurf is spot on with the "why DVD" question, older family members won't entertain using anything else!
I am hoping to set up a tablet for them as well soon and guessing that Hybrid to create the files would be the tool to use.

What is the recommended tool for extracting back to lossless (Virtualdub?) and what codec should I use? Is it just a case of loading the files and then exporting out?

I must admit I still don't quite get what interlacing is, once extracted to a lossless format would the interlace then be lost?

What are suggested NLE's, Resolve, FCP, KDENlive, iMovie? I'm fortunate enough to have a range of older hardware if "vintage" software works better. I prefer using Macs but a while ago recognised sometimes better ways of getting tasks done with Windows (still not convinced by anything past W7 though).

It's probably better to ask in the appropriate forum but realistically what improvements can be made to minidv transfers, is it mainly colour correction?

[Aya_Rei]

On the topic of DVDs, had to use DVDStyler

Interlacing is how analog and digital minidv footage is stored. Basically instead of each frame being just that, a single frame, each frame is instead made up of two fields. These fields are deinterlaced (either manually or by the TV/DVD Player), doubling the frame count and leading to smoother motion.

So no, encoding the MiniDV files to lossless HuffYUV files using VirtualDub wouldn't remove the interlace.

Though MiniDV is Bottom field first, Analog tapes and DVDs or Top field first.

[radiokom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

On the topic of DVDs, had to use DVDStyler

Interlacing is how analog and digital minidv footage is stored. Basically instead of each frame being just that, a single frame, each frame is instead made up of two fields. These fields are deinterlaced (either manually or by the TV/DVD Player), doubling the frame count and leading to smoother motion.

So no, encoding the MiniDV files to lossless HuffYUV files using VirtualDub wouldn't remove the interlace.

Though MiniDV is Bottom field first, Analog tapes and DVDs or Top field first.

DV is lower field first PAL&NTSC, NTCS VHS too, PAL VHS upper field first. Simply, after digitizing, convert to progressive. All devices now is progressive with different deinterlace quality each so you have nothing to do with interlaced video in modern world.