vwestlife capture device comparison of USB cards?

[vwestlife]

Chill, guys. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Also don't underestimate the value people may place in an easy solution that you can just plug in and have it work perfectly every time, with no special software, tweaks, or extra equipment required. That's why the Elgato and EasyCap sell like hotcakes, because that's what they promise, but don't deliver. The DVMC does.

And believe me, I was really rooting to find a USB capture device that I could recommend. Something that wouldn't drop frames if you look at it wrong, won't cause Blue Screens of Death, and won't have random glitches, freezes, and crashes that were enough to make this atheist pray that I could get it working long enough to at least get a few seconds of usable footage. Especially when Windows decides to start sucking up all your CPU power to check for updates or malware in the middle of your capture session. Give me an ancient, completely offline Mac any day of the week compared to that!

Until DVMC prices come back to Earth, the aforementioned Sony DVDirect burners may indeed be the best budget buy, especially if you hate computers as much as I do, and if you think MPEG2 may be the lesser of two evils compared to the DV nasties that all the professionals in the broadcast industry somehow failed to see 30 years ago.

Speaking of which, my personally preferred capture solution isn't even the DVMC, it's the Sony DCR-SR100 camcorder which records A/V inputs directly to MPEG2 files on its hard drive. But I didn't want to publicly recommend that due to its even more limited supply of units on eBay and already-higher prices that would skyrocket even more.

For example, I used the DCR-SR100 for all the capture samples in this video, as well to record to NightShot scene showing the IR sensors: No record! 2007 Magnavox DVD / VHS player (DV200MW8)

[Gary34]

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Chill, guys. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

You have a point as far as convenience and price. It’s not like you’re saying it’s better than losslessly compressed. Good video.

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by Gary34

You have a point as far as convenience and price. It’s not like you’re saying it’s better than losslessly compressed. Good video.

Quoted to agree. Video was fine (but title not so much).

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Originally Posted by vwestlife

Chill, guys. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Also don't underestimate the value people may place in an easy solution that you can just plug in and have it work perfectly every time, with no special software, tweaks, or extra equipment required.

My issue was it was clickbait without accuracy
- "USB video capture devices ALL SUCK" is just plain wrnog.
- "but there's a $20 solution" is also untrue in terms of MSRP or typical resale value. Sure, you'll always find something way underpriced, but it's an exception, not a rule

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That's why the Elgato and EasyCap sell like hotcakes, because that's what they promise, but don't deliver. The DVMC does.

I get that. But several items deliver at the low-end, including certain USB cards, passthrough Panasonic DVD recorders, etc.

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Until DVMC prices come back to Earth,

I doubt it. "The cat's out of the bag" now, and those underpriced items that flew "under the radar" are now outed. That's just how it works.

There's a reason I don't just tell everybody everything I know, because certain items would skyrocket beyond reality. Every reseller/recycler on eBay would think their crap is treasure -- which is a huge problem when their crap/"treasure" needs refurb work. That's why "parts or repair" decks are $500 at times, which drives up costs of the refurb'd decks to $1k+ for parts/time. (Similarly, vhs-decode kiddies blame me for TBC costs, as if I control what others charge and pay.)

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Speaking of which, my personally preferred capture solution isn't even the DVMC, it's the Sony DCR-SR100 camcorder which records A/V inputs directly to MPEG2 files on its hard drive. But I didn't want to publicly recommend that due to its even more limited supply of units on eBay and already-higher prices that would skyrocket even more.

Yep, that would happen.

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the aforementioned Sony DVDirect burners may indeed be the best budget buy, especially if you hate computers as much as I do, and if you think MPEG2 may be the lesser of two evils compared to the DV nasties that all the professionals in the broadcast industry somehow failed to see 30 years ago.

To me, the 1990s often felt like "wow, amazing!", in reference to tech. The result was people in the 90s were too easy to please. (That's been displaced by 2020s social media complaining. Nothing is ever good enough, never cheap enough.)

- The 2000s gave rise to some really great video hardware.
- The 2010s was all about Chinese KOs. So all the crappy Chinese USB cards.
- The 2020s have turned into "choose your own facts", so people are largely unsure what to think, skeptical of everything, and putting conspiracy bums at an even consideration to experts in a field.

But you already know this, you're old enough.

[latreche34]

The video is fine but I would say a good working VCR or camcorder built in TBC will filter out the good capture devices from bad capture devices. The point is if a capture device is fed with a stable signal and still craps out, it really sucks.

[vwestlife]

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf

My issue was it was clickbait without accuracy
- "USB video capture devices ALL SUCK" is just plain wrnog.
- "but there's a $20 solution" is also untrue in terms of MSRP or typical resale value. Sure, you'll always find something way underpriced, but it's an exception, not a rule

OK, then all of the ones I tested suck... which was a lot of them. I really thought the Lumanate/Dell box would be a diamond in the rough, since Windows automatically loaded the drivers, it worked fine with TotalMedia, VirtualDub, and AMCap, and it transferred the crappy LP fireplace tape without issue -- but then for some reason stumbled badly on an SP tape. Bummer!

And to make you happy, I removed the $20 from the title.

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I doubt it. "The cat's out of the bag" now, and those underpriced items that flew "under the radar" are now outed. That's just how it works.

You can still get other analog-to-DV boxes at reasonable prices. For example, the Canopus ADVC-100 is going for around $80 - $100.

Note that the Sony DCR-SR60 and SR80 camcorders also support capturing analog video to MPEG2 files, but require Sony's stupid Handycam Station docking base to get a USB port, which they are usually sold without.

A lot of JVC camcorder models from 2007 to 2008 also support A/V input recording, but they only do composite (no S-video), and use a weird .MOD container for the video files. JVC even had a few camcorder models which recorded video to MPEG2 files on a hard drive, but then could spit it out as DV over FireWire, just to make it easier to use with then-established tape camcorder workflows.

Panasonic also had a tiny camcorder that fit in the palm of your hand and captured DVD-quality video from a composite input directly to SD cards... in 2003! Too bad Panasonic had to invent their own proprietary high-speed SD cards to do it, since regular ones weren't fast enough yet.
Panasonic D-Snap - The $1000 SD Card camcorder from 2003!

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by vwestlife

OK, then all of the ones I tested suck... which was a lot of them.

There are some oddities in the USB tests. Next week (or week after), I'll finally have some time go over it, and give you some feedback.

The TBC information is also not accurate. For example, it conflates line TBC and frame TBC. That's like lumping a dump truck with a Honda Accord in a "what car to buy" conversation, then complaining about how the dump truck is too expensive and gets terrible gas mileage.

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I really thought the Lumanate/Dell box would be a diamond in the rough, since Windows automatically loaded the drivers, it worked fine with TotalMedia, VirtualDub, and AMCap, and it transferred the crappy LP fireplace tape without issue -- but then for some reason stumbled badly on an SP tape. Bummer!

PVR-style devices, especially XP MCE native, are pretty universally horrible at videotapes. Hauppauge had a lot of stinker cards at the time. Probably the most hopeful device at the time was the LSI-based SoundBlaster video card, but drivers/software screwed that one up.

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A lot of JVC camcorder models ... use a weird .MOD container for the video files.

I forget about those. Avoid, avoid, avoid!

/ conclusion:

The way I figure it, at least you're spreading the word that Easycaps, Elgatos, VC500s are crap, and shaming those sham "professionals" that use those cards.

I'll have a lot more time next year. Perhaps we can do a video together.

[Aya_Rei]

Looked it up, seems like the Sony DVMC-DA2 went for $300 to $350 back when it was new in the early 2000s.

Guess on the topic of these capture cards needing good stable signals, swear I remember seeing in some BlackMagic device's manual that it states a time base corrected signal must be used.

[vwestlife]

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The TBC information is also not accurate. For example, it conflates line TBC and frame TBC. That's like lumping a dump truck with a Honda Accord in a "what car to buy" conversation, then complaining about how the dump truck is too expensive and gets terrible gas mileage.

Any TBC is better than no TBC. I know you guys love to go "Bad! Bad! Do not buy! It'll ruin your video and give you indigestion!" about certain TBCs, but compared to video that's wobbling like a flag in the wind, the one in the DVMC is certainly better than nothing.

And if you use the DV passthrough mode of a Handycam, as I mentioned in the video, in most models that gives you an option to disable the TBC, in case you come across a circumstance where it hurts more than it helps.

[Gary34]

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Any TBC is better than no TBC. The one in the DVMC is certainly better than nothing.

Everyone agrees with that.

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I'll have a lot more time next year. Perhaps we can do a video together.

That would be an interesting video.

[aramkolt]

I decided to get the Dell Angel out and mess around with it since I think it really deserves another look. I didn't personally get any tearing artifacts when using it with SP or slower speeds and all captures posted below are with internal TBC off.

Just to give an idea of how good of quality it is if the source is high quality, I've attached samples of both the unit being hooked up both with composite and S-Video to both the pattern generator (TPG21) and playback of a VHS tape that was made via S-Video from the pattern generator in SP and then played back via both S-Video and composite.

I honestly can't really tell the difference between the S-Video vs Composite captured on tape in this case outside of the very slight rainbowing in the center of the moving zone plate and maybe there's a bit of green hue to the S-Video capture. When captured from a high quality source (the pattern generator), the difference is also minimal other than the expected luma/chroma crosstalk around the zone plate.

The program I was using defaults to 7500Kb/s and does not appear to be changeable in that software anyway.

This test is kind of interesting in that it shows just how much gets lost in VHS recordings compared to the source (pattern generator vs SP recording of the generator).

Just for fun, here's a dropbox link to what a lossless 10 bit capture compressed to FFV1 looks like from a TPG21 (75,000Kb/s for the lossless 10 bit FFV1 compared to the Angel's MPEG2 at 7,500Kb/s - so in other words the Angel's file takes up 1/10th the space and no conversions needed at the cost of some loss of vibrancy and sharpness - it is 4:2:0 after all compared to 4:2:2)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0yk13...p8sjcd1a3&dl=0

[aramkolt]

Appears that dropbox link with the comparison of lossless 10 bit FFV1 compared to the Dell Angel doesn't work for some reason, so here's a new link: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xgj7eont96ln1rr3fodc9/10bitlossless_Vs_AngelMPEG2.png?rlkey=iftjqxa7w55l 2j6attrtgos1y&dl=0

The FFV1 is also a full window 720x486 capture via SDI compared to the Angel's 720x480.

[vwestlife]

The DVMC's TBC chip is the Sony CXD3129R, so far confirmed to also be used in:
DCR-TRV900 (MiniDV)
DSR-11 (DVCAM)
DSR-25 (DVCAM)
DSR-50 (DVCAM)
DSR-PD100 (DVCAM)

A similar TBC chip, the Sony CXD3129GA, so far confirmed to be used in:
DCR-PC3 (MiniDV)
DCR-PC100 (MiniDV)
DCR-TR7000 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV8 (MiniDV)
DCR-TRV10 (MiniDV)
DCR-TRV103 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV110 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV203 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV210 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV310 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV315 (Digital8)

A different TBC chip, the NEC µPD82014UB, so far confirmed to be used in:
DCR-PC7 (MiniDV)
DCR-PC10 (MiniDV)
DCR-TRV7 (MiniDV)
DCR-TRV9 (MiniDV)
GV-D300 (MiniDV)
GV-D900 (MiniDV)

The aforementioned JVC camcorders which can record A/V input to MPEG2 video do not have a TBC, so no hidden gem there.

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by vwestlife

The DVMC's TBC chip is the Sony CXD3129R, so far confirmed to also be used in:
A similar TBC chip, the Sony CXD3129GA, so far confirmed to be used in:
A different TBC chip, the NEC µPD82014UB, so far confirmed to be used in:

You have to be really careful with same, similar, and different chips.

- Functions can be disabled on chips, per device.
- Even a slight variation chip can be vastly different, missing functions.
- Different chips can perform vastly different.

It needs to be confirmed, one by one. Anybody buying from this list is essentially a guinea pig until confirmation. Members, readers, would-be buyers, all need to recognize this.

But still good info to add here.

As an example, I've gotten tired/irritated by Analog Device chip conversations over the years. Most of those devices have functions disabled, as the function is wonky and unreliable. Then even slight variations in chip model letter/number are wildly different in architecture. The posters are far too giddy, misplaced excitement, from seeing either device internal images, or reading simple device spec sheets. It's just not that easy.

[aramkolt]

At one point I think I had one of those compact DSR models that was a parts unit due to a mechanical issue. If I can find it, I should be able to test it against an ADVC-110, DVMC, TRV-310, and a ADVC-300. I think the TRV-310 is pretty well known to have line-TBC properties though.

I probably have 3 or 4 other pro and compact full size DV/DVCAM/DVCPRO decks from Sony, JVC, and Panasonic that I should be able to throw into the mix that I presume are able to do analog to DV out.

As far as tests I'd try, would probably feed them color bars from a pattern generator to look at color accuracy and luma levels and then try to capture a short portion of a tape that has known top frame tearing and see what they all do with it.

[vwestlife]

Sony's TBC is not infallible. MV Gard causes it to blank out:

Proto-Macrovision: Magnetic Video's MV Gard (1979)

[Gary34]

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As an example, I've gotten tired/irritated by Analog Device chip conversations over the years. Most of those devices have functions disabled, as the function is wonky and unreliable.

I have seen threads about that. The claiming the Analog Device chip on the Pinnacles and other devices have TBC like qualities. I haven’t seen any evidence of it though.

[Aya_Rei]

From my understanding they do not. Not by themselves, I could turn off the line TBC in my VCR and it'll produce a wiggling mess.

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by Gary34

I have seen threads about that. The claiming the Analog Device chip on the Pinnacles and other devices have TBC like qualities. I haven’t seen any evidence of it though.

Not just Pinnacle cards, but Blackmagic, and others (Aja, Edirol, Canopus?), dev boards, etc etc.
Blah blah blah, no.

Analog Devices has a very loose definition of "TBC". Their "ADLLT" is mostly marketing BS. While I get tired of marketing, I get more tired of people that believe it without any scrutiny. (We truly live in a world of lemmings and gullible goobers -- which also explains modern politics. Too many sheeple out there, not enough critical thinking and science.)

Heck, even AI (Claude) knows better!

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What a real TBC does:
- Buffers full fields/frames
- Re-clocks the output to a stable, crystal-referenced timebase
- Corrects timing errors introduced by the transport mechanism (VHS, Beta, etc.)
- Handles dropout, velocity errors, skew

What those Analog Devices capture chips actually do, at best:
- Line-level clamping and sync slicing
- Some have "genlock" inputs but that's for output sync, not input correction
- They digitize whatever timing they receive — they don't correct it
- Any "TBC-like" language in Analog Devices datasheets refers to very narrow, specific functions, not full timebase correction

AI has actually gotten good at some of these concepts, but easily hallucinate if you don't already know a lot about TBCs. You must have documents to preamble the conversion, pose accurate jargon-filled questions, and include backstops to avoid hallucinations.

If you really dig into the AD documents, on the ADLLT, you find a lot of gotchas, hidden weasel terms. I have a very technical break down, but just never had to post it. And rather than having somebody swipe my info for Youtube, I thought about making a Youtube video myself concurrently with written documents. But time is my issue. There's another concurrent with that, not discussing it now.