Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Project Planning, Workflows

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
03-28-2011, 06:47 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 79
Thanked 31 Times in 19 Posts
[Random thoughts ahead and fast typing, so forgive me for being incohesive at time].

I wasn't sure where to put this, so I put it in the General Section to be safe. Cut me off If I'm losing you here and just sounding like one of those guys that makes you skip on to the next thread and walk off to bed. I joined this forum several weeks ago and have just been watching whats going on, but I like what I have read and seen here. I'm a BIG preservationist, especially with old cartoons from the late 70's and early 80's that I grew up with. NO ONE was putting these classics on DVD back when I was capturing in the late 90s and early 2000s unless had a movie version at the time, so I felt it was like 'my duty' to cap it. I strung that analog cable out in my college dorm until it bled, I think. I HAD TO cap this and cap that! A lot of people then were capping anime, but I am not an anime fan ( no offense to those who are, but I just never watched much anime stuff). Had I known in 2000 that some of these treasures would later be transferred to DVD, I would have given up.

Anyway, lets cut to the tasty part of the mule: I thought I was a big shot capturing via analog->VDUB->Huffy from cable back in 2000 - 2003 and using my own "awesome" AviSynth scripts to get my way with the final product. My Last capture I believe was in late 2003. Then I moved on to work and finishing my MS in comp sci. Anyway, back then AviSynth was the 'stuff' to use. I used it all the time. I first learned the basics reading a guide from some guy named Luke. Then I moved to Doom9. Then Doom9 just went sort of cold. I fooled with and sold my ADVC-100 and WinTV and WinTV FM ( it didn't have the audio hiss the WinTV had. I think that was a GO model ). I capped and capped and capped. Then I stopped.

Now I just got back into it and its 2011 - not 2001 or 2004. I'm looking to preserve and "clean" some of my VHS tapes from the early 80's to present. the problem is this: AviSynth is OLD. I know there are multi-threaded versions and 64-bit versions but its confusing for a once-new-timer to step in as an old-timer. I haven't capped anything since 2004. AviSynth seems out-of-date now and doom9 is basically obsolete ( I know about doom10 ). There is a LOT to sift through since then. Don't get me wrong - I love the idea of AviSynth, but I fear its just "not what it used to".

To make a long story short: I just bought TMPGEnc XPress and it has come a long way since its days as TMPGEnc Plus. The filters work nicely and it encodes wonderfully.

My question is: Do we really need AviSynth these days ( Its filters, mainly. I use DGindexBV all the time)? I noticed that if you really fine-tune TMPGEnc Xpress' filters you can get a descent output. I wish AviSynth was as strong as it was in the early 2000's, but honestly after purchasing DGIndexNV ( i know that has nothing to do with AviSynth ) and the latest version of TMPGEnc Xpress, I'm beginning to wonder if AviSynth is just DEAD. Same with VDub. I know its hard to rewrite the code to handle WDM drivers as opposed to VFW, but can I have my moment and pretend? Thanks

I miss my flawless ( I thought at the time ) WinTV->VDub->Hufffy->AviSynth->TmpgEnc solution.

Love this site and forum...Now, can you please help me preserve my 1982 ABC Sunday Night premiere of the original Superman that aired here in Wash, DC? ( That was just a shameless call for help. lol ). Murdeer She Wrote is tracking better, so I guess I have to go with that

Love this place! Glad I found it.

JVC SR-V10U with no external TBC, for reference. Any donors?

Last edited by Tuco; 03-28-2011 at 07:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
03-28-2011, 08:56 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,155
Thanked 357 Times in 293 Posts
AviSynth still has its place, first time I saw it, I loved it. Scripting operations have power that other tools can't match. I use it as a pre-processor for my video going into TMPGEnc Plus. I find its Trim() command handy for cutting out parts of the video and quicker then fooling around with an NLE. There have also been improvements made in filters since the early 2000s, median noise filters for one.

VirtualDub has been continuously updated and remains an active project and fully supports WDM capture card drivers now. FWIW, your "old" workflow is basically the same one I use. It works well and I have it down to a science and can crank out VHS to DVD transfers pretty quickly now (quicker if I had a faster machine to encode with ) The main difference today is finding a capture card that works well. Most don't allow for uncompressed capture and quite a few are picky about input signals and have trouble with AGC. I won't get into HD capturing. Needless to say, you will likely need to invest in an external TBC to make a modern capture card happy.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
03-29-2011, 03:56 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
I want to reply more tomorrow (it's late), but I had to respond to this:

Quote:
I'm a BIG preservationist, especially with old cartoons from the late 70's and early 80's that I grew up with. NO ONE was putting these classics on DVD back when I was capturing in the late 90s and early 2000s unless had a movie version at the time, so I felt it was like 'my duty' to cap it. I strung that analog cable out in my college dorm until it bled, I think. I HAD TO cap this and cap that! A lot of people then were capping anime, but I am not an anime fan (no offense to those who are, but I just never watched much anime stuff). Had I known in 2000 that some of these treasures would later be transferred to DVD, I would have given up.
That's me!
I feel like listening to Megadeth all of a sudden: "Hello me, it's me a again...."

I never wasted time on anime because it was being sold in those expensive $25/disc box sets, even back in 2000-2002. It was those treasures being re-run on CN, Boomerang and Toon Disney that were MIA. That's still true of quite a few early 2000s shows, so even though probably 50% of what I recorded has been replace with retails (assuming the release wasn't edited/butchered), it was still worth it. For example, I have all of The Smurfs recorded on DVD -- every episode. That took worldwide effort, as only 80% are shown in the USA (Warner lacks rights to the full run for release or broadcast).

I was recording even before the digital era, to S-VHS and some VHS. I'm still capturing those tapes, to this day. Much of it can be tossed, thanks to the releases, but there are still gems in there -- specials, commercials, uncut/banned episodes, etc.

I'll help you with the workflow questions in the next day or so. Some of what you did is still valid, some needs to be tossed. (Some was never proper, as I believe Luke had some bad information.) Some "old" programs and hardware are still best in 2011, some are not.

Quote:
1982 ABC Sunday Night premiere of the original Superman that aired here in Wash, DC
Is that the infamous "unedited" 4-hour cut? I have that, from an early-gen copy of a VHS tape. I restored it about 7 years ago, and my work still holds up. (I recently watched it, took 3 days because I can't sit that long for TV.) If you follow the Superman circles that are out there, that uncut version is getting the "RIC treatment" by a group. I've not yet had the time to see if they need any better sources, or to learn how good their own masters are -- or if they need restoration help. (I'll admit, the RIC crew was pretty good, but I know they mostly use commercial pre-existing sources, not homemade ones.)

That's nowhere near as rare as my SP mode recording (not a copy!) of the 1978 Star Wars Holiday Special. Brick of gold, that one. I want to redo that work one more time before the tape gets too old to work with.

Same for my studio copies of Generation X and Robotech the Movie: The Untold Story. (PAL-only rare releases.)

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #4  
03-31-2011, 11:59 AM
Tuco Tuco is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 79
Thanked 31 Times in 19 Posts
Quote:
The main difference today is finding a capture card that works well. Most don't allow for uncompressed capture and quite a few are picky about input signals and have trouble with AGC.
Yeah. I think the biggest problem for me was sifting through all the cards out there that are overkill for my needs. I don't capture HD, but if I decide to, I can just use my HVR-1600. But pretty much everything that airs in HD, aside from commercials, usually hits DVD or Blu-Ray anyway. Unfortunately all my old equipment has been sold off, except for my VCR's so I'm starting from scratch.

Quote:
Needless to say, you will likely need to invest in an external TBC to make a modern capture card happy.
Yeah. I've known that for years, but could never afford a good one. I've got my mind set on one of the two recommended on this site, but I'll go for that once I figure out which capture card I want to get. Looking at the TV Wonder 600 PCIe or USB version. It'd be nice to move it from computer to computer, but it's not a necessity. I'm still reading, but will probably go the trial and error approach.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
03-31-2011, 01:20 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 79
Thanked 31 Times in 19 Posts
@lordsmurf

LOL. Yeah, I'm just flat-out OCD about preserving hard to find shows. I just recently went through my box of old tapes and it took everything short of a 12-step program to throw out 67 tapes.

There wasn't any gold on there anyway. At least not for me. Some PPV movies that are out on retail, some early CN stuff that is also out on retail, and some random crap. Needed the space bad, so an executive decision had to be made. All the 70s, 80's and early 90s stuff I won't touch. I'll build a shed in my backyard if I have to.

Quote:
so even though probably 50% of what I recorded has been replace with retails (assuming the release wasn't edited/butchered), it was still worth it.
Thats the problem! You never know if its been hacked up once it hits DVD. You also don't get the commercials or the commercial outros/intros (for lack of a better term). For example, I bought the complete He-Man series on eBay back in 2000 and even though the entire series is on DVD now you still don't get the commercials or the short "We'll be back after these messages" or "And now back to <insert title here>" bits. While I like to see a professional and clean retail version, its those little bits that are priceless and usually missing from retail. Yeah, the eBay copy had those (sans commercials) but it was typical eBay trash. Someone's 8.5/10 video quality rating when its really just 80th generation 2/10 at best garbage. Trashed.
Quote:
For example, I have all of The Smurfs recorded on DVD -- every episode. That took worldwide effort, as only 80% are shown in the USA (Warner lacks rights to the full run for release or broadcast).
Amazing! I used to watch that almost every Saturday. I could never find a good set, though. The only thing I have is the X-Mas episode that aired on CN in the early 2000s.
Quote:
Is that the infamous "unedited" 4-hour cut?
I am not sure. I am not familiar with the 4 hour cut of Superman, to be totally honest. I do know I dubbed it onto a new VHS a few weeks ago just in case the original tape breaks/warps, etc and it took about 3 hours and 2 tapes (i dubbed it in SP mode. The original is EP ). It could have gone to 4 hours; I honestly don't know. but it was at least 3 because I couldn't figure out why it was taking so long. It is first generation though. Its on an old RCA VK 250 tape that says "Christmas 1981" and "Superman". At the credits the guy was announcing that the Olivia Newton-John "Let's Get Physical" Special was coming on next. The trailer for the movie "The Border" also aired. Thats how I nailed it down to 1982. And the credits went on forever (they didn't speed them up like they do now. ). I can post some samples. I'll do some research and see how I can identify whether it is the 4 hour version or not.

Original Star Wars special in SP? Were you invited to the Royal Wedding?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
03-31-2011, 06:44 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 79
Thanked 31 Times in 19 Posts
Ok, I got some rough samples from the Superman tape. Note: I didn't have time to trim these or anything and no filtering was applied or any TLC at all. The filenaming sucks too. These are sold as-is. Hopefully these can help determine if this is the 4 hour cut or not. If not I can take more samples. If it is the 4 hour cut, I'm happy to donate footage.

This first one is from the original 1982 tape. I had to play it from my Toshiba W-707 and pass it through my JVC SR-V10U. Well I didn't HAVE to pass it through but it was easier than reaching behind to correct the wires.. I didn't have time to get back there. The JVC chokes on this one so that is the reason for using the Toshiba.

The samples are MPEG transport streams. Around 130MB with the exception of the announcement during the credits.

Toshiba W707 -> JVC SR-V10U -> HVR-1600:
http://www.mediafire.com/?nzbbb85p30u7bao

JVC SR-V10U (no pass-through) -> HVR-1600. I turned on the video stabilizer to make it watchable. But you can see the effect of the NR in the beginning before I turned it off. If I just had a TBC I could (hopefully) keep the picture stable and use the NR because I like how it removes the "background noise" for this particular tape:
http://www.mediafire.com/?x1no6j6qqbxz1nt

The Ending credit announcement from the one I dubbed. I was afraid to fast forward the original tape all the way to the end because it is so old. This was passed through from the Toshiba to the JVC for same the reason mentioned above (laziness)
http://www.mediafire.com/?4u2vizfuf9qcbnw

I didn't have time to look into the details of the 4 hour Superman cut, but in the intro it says its the ABC network premiere. I'll have to look into it more.

Last edited by Tuco; 03-31-2011 at 06:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
04-01-2011, 10:41 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
What you have is the 1982 ABC 3-hour, 2-minute extended cut put together by the Salkinds. (I don't know where 4 hours came from.) What I have is the 1994 KCOP "Salkind Extended Cut" that ran 3 hours, 8 minutes. It's not the same cut as the earlier 1982, although it is supposedly very similar.

This is a rare tape, and it appears to be in good condition.

I'll transfer it for you. Free. (I mostly want copies of those ancient commercials.)
How does that sound?

I can throw a lot more hardware and software at it.

Interested?

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #8  
04-02-2011, 12:55 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,155
Thanked 357 Times in 293 Posts
I'm curious how my new-to-me DVHS unit would handle this tape. I did some quick testing and it appears Digipure remains enabled even when the Video Stabilizer is turned on! I don't have any tapes here that have the same problem the Superman tape has however, so I can't test my DVHS deck or AVT-8710 TBC's ability to correct that error. I never had a tape get bouncy on me when I turned on Digipure (I never use R3). If anything, Digipure has worked some pretty big miracles for me and saved someone's prized memories.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
04-02-2011, 01:05 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
Based off this specific error, I'd run it through an AG-1980. I'm fairly certain a JVC S-VHS unit would never handle it very well -- even if with stabilizer on, and chained into an ES10.

The D-VHS has some interesting features -- and you're right, the DigiPure filtering does seem to stay turned on even with a stabilizer engaged -- but I think some of the instability would still overcome the "JVC-ness" of the deck.

I think it would also benefit from the fake sharpening of the Panasonic, using the slider -- much better than the JVC decks' pathetic attempts to "add detail". An alternative would be a dedicated detailer unit. However, I keep my DR-1000 unplugged a lot, because I've caught it adding noise. (Something I need to research further, as time allows.) Even then, I think the Panasonic slider is harsher than the DR-1000, and this may be one of the few times where that's a good think.

This is one of the few situations where a JVC deck may not be the best solution. Old 80s tapes (and in what appears to be SLP mode?) never made for an easy project.

The footage is also smeary, and could use some desaturation in a proc amp to counteract it.

.... and I still need to reply further to the initial post.

For example, Avisynth is minimally useful for standard VHS > DVD work. Hardware and VirtualDub can correct most issues. Avisynth is best saved for the most stubborn of ever, or even special needs (high end deinterlacing, for example). But more on that later.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #10  
04-05-2011, 08:56 PM
kpmedia's Avatar
kpmedia kpmedia is offline
Site Staff | Web Hosting, Photo
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,311
Thanked 374 Times in 341 Posts
I'm moving this to the video workflows forum, since that appears to be underlying topic.
Thanks.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Please Like Us on Facebook | Follow Us on Twitter

- Need a good web host? Ask me for help! Get the shared, VPS, semi-dedicated, cloud, or reseller you need.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Newbie introduction and questions on video capture! Artex Capture, Record, Transfer 1 01-02-2015 03:11 PM
New Member Introduction - my VHS-C to digital project! Dissones4u General Discussion 20 06-28-2014 01:32 AM
Review of Blank DVD media - updated in early 2010? kpmedia Blank Media 0 06-22-2010 05:37 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:06 PM