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07-20-2015, 12:19 PM
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I borrowed a HM-DSR100U over the weekend for some comparison tests. Videos are uncompressed with no filtering or deinterlacing. Save them to your computer for viewing, do not watch them in browser. Dropbox will stream and add compression if watched in browser.

Each tape is a professional recording. No home movies. Not recorded on cheap home gear (though you wouldn't know it on the last two. Both date to 82 and 83).

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-- Note: all files in this thread have been mirrored on our servers, and the links are in post#49. So if the Dropbox links ever go 404, the files are still here on page 3. All members should remember to please attach video clips to posts, not upload them elsewhere. Thanks.

------------

Test A - JVC HM-DSR100U
animation test
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/IronGA.avi

Turbines
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/powera.avi

Power
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/power1a.avi

Test B - JVC SR-W5U

Animation test
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/IronGB.avi

Turbines
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...7/Turbineb.avi

Power
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/power1b.avi

*the animation samples will be removed at the end of the week.
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  #2  
07-20-2015, 12:29 PM
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Settings





still having issues with my audio track syncing. automatic audio latency determination has the audio delay by 3 to 4 seconds.

Fixed is better, but there is still a noticeable delay.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg settings 1.JPG (22.2 KB, 80 downloads)
File Type: jpg settings2.JPG (56.2 KB, 80 downloads)
File Type: jpg settings3.JPG (36.2 KB, 79 downloads)
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  #3  
07-20-2015, 12:34 PM
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This was suppose to go on the Capture, Record, Transfer forum.

Could a moderator move the thread?
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  #4  
07-20-2015, 01:16 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Hello.

Some useful tips:

I don't think I have to tell you that no one here is going to spend the time to download nearly 3GB of uncompressed AVI video. There are plenty of good lossless compressors around, including huffyuv, Lagarith, and UT Codec. As it is, that much video isn't necessary to see that you have serious line sync errors, really bad dot crawl, and audio sync problems.

I tried to check the file size of https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...7/Turbineb.avi. but got a 404 error. If it's a large as the others, I wouldn't have downloaded it anyway.

You can capture uncompressed if you wish (i don't know why, perhaps you have other considerations you haven't mentioned), but it's not a problem to losslessly compress capture samples in VirtualDub.

You need a line tbc or line tbc pass-thru in the worst way, and the dot crawl is serious with both players.
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  #5  
07-20-2015, 02:13 PM
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I realize the videos have issues. That is part of why the videos were posted in a raw format. So we wouldn't go back and forth about what I might have used to make them look bad. People don't want to believe that high dollar players like these two can output video this ugly.

Also, download them and then watch them. Do not watch them in the browser. Dropbox will try to steam them in browser and add it's own compression.
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  #6  
07-20-2015, 03:01 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Ummm, no, not for 3GB. Why couldn't you compress them yourself? What's this with watching them in a media player that adds its own compression? last I heard, media players de-compress video to play them, not the other way around. Maybe you've been misled. I think, too, you might misunderstand the nature of the lossless compressors mentioned so often here and which are S.O.P. for working files.

Saw enough to see that the Sr-W5U is the better choice, but you still need a line tbc. Many of the problems should be helped along during capture. That includes a line tbc, or you'll be spending a lot of time with unnecessary work and unsatisfactory results.

The two vids I looked at are telecined. The cause of the audio sync problems is debatable, but a frame tbc will certainly help address that, and a line tbc can help as well.

Had just enough time to try to rescue some of the animation. Still some work needed on sloppy edge problems. The attached video was inverse telecined in Avisynth, color corrected and denoised in VirtualDub, and re-relecined in TMPGenc Mastering Works (3:2 pulldown). Some of the remaining chroma smear and edge problems could be fixed with either more filtering (you will lose some more detail) or, even better, a cleaner signal via tbc.


Attached Files
File Type: mpg SR-W5U_IronGB.mpg (23.11 MB, 12 downloads)
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  #7  
07-20-2015, 03:07 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The SR-W5U is going to blow away that DVHS deck. The JVC HM-DSR100U is a first generation SD-only DVHS deck and lacks the Line TBC/DNR found in the later HD capable models. For all intents and purposes, its a standard SVHS playback deck.
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  #8  
07-20-2015, 03:10 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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the line tbc in the W5U is, well, seems a bit weak, but that could point to a need for a little maintenance. Still, eons ahead of the other player. I'm going almost 100% by the animation, though, since the othr vid was still downloading when I finished playing with the anime. On the other hand, maybe the anime was just "made" that way (many of them are) or was a 2nd gen copy.

The W5U all the way, then.

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-20-2015 at 03:41 PM.
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  #9  
07-20-2015, 04:23 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Thanks for the samples! Guess my ISP will be charging me overages for data usage this month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostBite View Post
The correct link uses the same number as the others in place of that ellipsis, so: this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostBite View Post
still having issues with my audio track syncing.
Tried with "Do not resync"? What's the capture device, anyway? The first frame of IronGA is an interpolated single field, and the next 8 frames are drops. Actually all of your samples start with a varying number of drops (except Turbineb), though not every first frame is interpolated. I've seen the interpolation behaviour with the ATI 600, so I'm guessing that's what you're using. Be sure to use the device and not your sound card for audio capture.

That Y/C crosstalk (what sanlyn called dot crawl) is atrocious. I think your S-Video cable is faulty. If you used the same cable for the SR-W5U, I guess the HM-DSR100U unit's S-Video output is busted. Try a capture with composite.

Does the SR-W5U have sharpness/picture controls you can alter so that the edges of the Iron Giant sample look less processed? The product sheet describes "emphasis" that is active in both HD and SD modes, but doesn't say whether you can disable it. (It also doesn't specify whether it's active in normal tape playback or only the special SD component format.)

I'm surprised by how conservative the luma noise reduction is. I had to go frame-by-frame before I could see any motion trails, and even then it's still at crazy-person nitpicking levels. The chroma NR is more aggressive though, with some visible trailing during playback and I count about 2 frames of ghosts at each scene change.

I just had a look back at your first post here. I hate that you're using such a prized unit to transfer freaking old company training videos.

Last edited by msgohan; 07-20-2015 at 05:08 PM.
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  #10  
07-20-2015, 05:26 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Yep, chroma trails. That's the term I was looking for! CamcorderColorDenoise cleaned some of it in the animation. Dot crawl isn't so bad with the W5U, but any sharpening later will make it more annoying if it isn't addressed. At least it's not the other player.
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  #11  
07-20-2015, 06:51 PM
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...secondtest.avi

I made that with compression earlier in the week. It is from a laserdisk player. Captured through composite. Used Lagarith.

Still having audio syncing problems. I've had audio problems with everything I record.

Everything goes through the ATI All in wonder 600 USB dongle.
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  #12  
07-21-2015, 10:52 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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When I said "try a capture with composite" that was specifically directed toward the HM-DSR100U, to troubleshoot where the Y/C crosstalk is originating. But I guess you no longer have it.

Can you tell us whether or not the exact same S-Video cable was used for both the HM-DSR100U and the SR-W5U captures?

The frame rate of the LD sample is wrong. I'm guessing you used "Sync video to audio by adjusting video timing" for that one. Do you want comments of the video quality of this sample?

EDIT: The VirtualDub Capture Timing Options I currently use are shown here. I've also used some different settings at other times. Setting these correctly for your device is key to maintaining audio sync.

Last edited by msgohan; 07-21-2015 at 11:21 AM.
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  #13  
07-21-2015, 10:15 PM
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same S video cable. Fancy Sony branded cable.

I hooked up an avt 8710 yesterday, and I think it is defective. Composite just doesn't work. S Video is in black and white and the controls don't seem to do anything. I got it from an ebay vendor, so no return policy :/

I ordered a 2 new s video cables and a new avt 8710 from B&H. *Fingers crossed* Maybe that will help.
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  #14  
07-22-2015, 10:10 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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All retail s-video cables are very much alike, especially the cheapies. On the other hand, there are high-end s-video cables from Audioquest and Cardas, etc., that are ridiculously priced (would you believe one at $1200 per meter? ? ?) and no better than generic cables from Home Depot. Most are stranded-core units with poor insulation and crummy connectors, have a lot of transmission noise and uneven impedance characteristics, noisy reds (low impedance) and color mottling, and give a relatively softened image or bristling edges.

The cleanest throughput and reliability I've found so far are these: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/svideo/index.htm.
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  #15  
07-22-2015, 01:49 PM
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More tests on the JVC SR-W5U

Used Lagarith with the same settings for this one

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/giant3.avi

Used Lagarith with msgohan timing settings for this one.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/giant4.avi

I also moved the computer and cables around a little just in case something was picking up something from something else.

syncing issues seem to have improved with both methods.

I did not post the one that I deinterlaced and ran through 2 other filters as the file was 2 gb.
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  #16  
07-22-2015, 02:26 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
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I did not post the one that I deinterlaced and ran through 2 other filters as the file was 2 gb.
I hope you didn't deinterlace. If it's like all your other samples so far, it was probably telecined. You can't deinterlace telecined video.

Much better audio. The dot crawl (okay, the y/c crosstalk) is pretty obvious. Probably not too tough to clean up, along with the excessive combing. I don't know what the player does to analog video, but it almost looks like noisy analog-to-DV. Not a disaster, though.
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  #17  
07-22-2015, 05:56 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Other than the glitches previously noted, the last two samples are a lot more workable than the early ones. Both animations look a little grungy with a ton of slithery low-level noise during camera motion (no surprise, folks, this is VHS!). Maybe the player's sharpening is making noise and rough edges tougher than they ought to be, but I managed to work on giant_3. It was inverse telecined, filtered, color corrected (the darks are on the edge of crushing and have almost no visible details in the original). All the caps seem to have oversaturated reds that exceed RGB 255. Re-telecined with 3:2 soft pulldown, DVD compliant.


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File Type: mpg giant_3.mpg (17.12 MB, 3 downloads)
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  #18  
07-22-2015, 08:57 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostBite View Post
I hooked up an avt 8710 yesterday, and I think it is defective. Composite just doesn't work. S Video is in black and white and the controls don't seem to do anything. I got it from an ebay vendor, so no return policy :/
Did you perform the reset procedure?

No matter what the seller claims, you should be covered by eBay's Money Back Guarantee as long as you file within the time limit. They tend to side with the buyer (many legit sellers would say too much so). Even if they decide against you, you can still file a chargeback with your credit card company if that's how you funded the payment. That's one reason PayPal always tries to persuade you to use a bank account to add funds to your account, instead: they're out the cash when a chargeback happens and have to try to extract it from the seller.

The chroma ghosting in the samples is driving me nuts. And the small snowflakes seem to have trails from the NR too. After I had praised the lack of luma trails before!

If you can, try the ATI 600 on a different computer. You shouldn't be getting all those dropped frames at the start of the capture. It's probably related to the audio sync issue.

Last edited by msgohan; 07-22-2015 at 09:11 PM.
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  #19  
07-30-2015, 06:26 AM
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More tests and comparisons

cheap monoprice cables http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_i...seq=1&format=2

without avt-8710
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...pricenotbs.avi
With avt-8710
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...nopricetbs.avi

with bhphotovideo Pearstone PEPCSVSV10 - Gold Series Premium S-Video
without avt-8710
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20no%20tbs.avi
with avt-8710
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ries%20AVI.avi

All videos taken with JVC SR-W5U and Lagarith
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  #20  
07-30-2015, 07:11 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. Each "comparison" is from a different video, and each of those videos have their own pros and cons. So in many respects there's no conclusive way to determine if AVT or no-AVT affects video A, B, C, or D. They're all different.

S-video doesn't carry audio, if that's what you're testing. The two you mention are wires I've encountered in the past. They're generic stranded-core material and are all pretty much alike. I tried all of them over the years. I use these: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/svideo/index.htm. Audio cables, while they do differ in quality, don't affect audio sync either. Generally the skinny OEM cables you get with most hardware players is shrill and fuzzy. I use 1694A's, pictured on the lower part of this page: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm. Have also used the heavier insulated 1695A's, offered elsewhere. The top section of the page features Canare cables -- a cheaper cop out IMO, with a relatively dull sound and inferior dynamics. But that still doesn't affect audio sync.

Earlier you mentioned you've been deinterlacing these videos. The videos seen so far are all telecined, not interlaced. Meaning that they are film-based, progressive video with hard coded 3:2 pulldown.

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-30-2015 at 07:43 AM.
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