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  #1  
01-13-2021, 06:42 PM
Zeta83 Zeta83 is offline
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I have an All-In-Wonder Radeon that I want to use to capture Hi8 tapes (which I will be playing from a Hi8 camera).

I'm going to need an old computer to use the AIW.
What is the most powerful/modern computer I can use to run one of these?
I figure I might as well make sure the computer's processing and file transferring interfaces are as fast and modern as the AIW will allow, since it (mostly) doesn't cost that much to get old computer parts and I don't want to spend more time than necessary on processing, or on transferring files to other devices.

Names of specific computer models, or, types of CPUs and motherboards (etc.) that can be used would be helpful.

Last edited by Zeta83; 01-13-2021 at 07:07 PM.
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  #2  
01-13-2021, 07:34 PM
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If you use a certain rare PCI AIW, then you can use any PCI enabled board that has XP drivers. That gets you into 2014 or so, which is not too shabby in terms of available CPUs.

This OS is the issue, a modern XP is needed.

You'll have to slipstream in the correct drivers, and it can be a PITA. XP Integral edition (unofficial XP) supposedly has backports/drivers/etc for nifty features (more RAM, USB3, GPT, etc), but it's too barebones to be useful. They stupidly insisted the ISO be under 700mb, so it has sparse included drivers. DriverPacks seems impossible to download now, and I'm not having any luck with my latest install (yet). I'll fart around with nLite later, too busy for now.

The CPU allowed is 100% dependent on the motherboard, and you need those PCI slots. So that's your task: find the most recent board with both PCI and XP drivers.

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  #3  
01-14-2021, 12:37 PM
pcourtney pcourtney is offline
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you simply don't need a fast modern computer for SD capture - you just need to run Windows XP with 2 or 3GB of ram, and a motherboard that sports one of the latest Pentium 4 CPU's, you install the OS on the C:\ drive, you can use an Intel SSD drive (as I dom contrary to what others might advise) , but this bit is important, it must be an Intel Pentium CPU and an Intel SSD drive - later than G2

SSD's work a bit differently to HDD's, all SSD's need to be informed which files are no longer valid (deleted/obsolete) so those blocks can be made available again at a later date by being reset to the SSD's notion of empty/available.

The SSD TRIM command was created to pass that information to Windows 7 (which was the first OS to send TRIM commands to SSD's) , sadly Windows XP has not been updated to send TRIM commands - and never will !

However, the Intel SSD Toolbox was created to send TRIM commands to Intel SSD's and when that function is invoked from the Intel Toolbox application after a lot of VHS SD capture, or any intensive use of the C:\ drive, it resets all those blocks and the drive is back to 100% health again

https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/...d-storage.html

lots of good info on MSFN below

https://msfn.org/board/topic/173482-...y-trim-an-ssd/

NB you don't capture SD video to your C:\ drive, but to a dedicated 2TB SATA drive, that you can remove from the desktop computer and then insert it into a much faster computer and any OS you like to do the post processing of the video !

I capture a VHS tape to my Win XP Dell 8300 computer and whilst keeping an eye on it - I am on the other computer where I use Vegas Pro 17 Lifetime Editionm that runs really nicely on a very fast Windows 10 64 bit machine with 32GB ram (which is recommended for 4K - but you only need 8GB for VHS )

This works for me, but I have hundreds of tapes to capture, and when I'm done I will keep the fast machine and sell the Dell 8300 with my ATI X800 AGP8x All In Wonder card to the next person who wants to use it for capture !
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  #4  
01-15-2021, 12:07 AM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta83 View Post
I have an All-In-Wonder Radeon
What model AIW Radeon do you have? They came in 3 different interfaces. PCI, AGP or PCIe. If it's an AGP interface card then certain PC's or motherboards will work. If it's a PCI or PCIe card, there more options including more modern ones which can include features like SATA2 which is a minor advantage.

But as pcourtney has said, capture alone can be done with a pretty modest computer. Raw CPU or GPU power isn't needed. The capture files are then moved to a more powerful PC for further processing, restoration, encoding, etc.

BW
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01-15-2021, 12:25 AM
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SATA2 and dual-core Intel CPUs are a major advantage for AIW systems.
- The SATA allows more/longer captures, faster transfers off-system, and less likely to drop frames.
- The dual-core Intel allows 15-20mbit MPEG captures without dropped frames

I've not been a major proponent of single-core P4 IDE systems for years now. I won't even build such a lowly system anymore. I built my last P4/Athlon system about 11 years ago (and sold it about 6 years ago, built myself the better SATA system). My final Athlon AIW system literally melted itself, I woke up to a PSU, motherboard, and AIW that was scorched and gooey back in 2014. (I've never liked AMD CPUs, they run too hot, and the available motherboards are always crappier than Intel compatibles. But it was my only real choice at the time it was built.)

I'm all for "more power" ATI AIW systems (Tim Taylor?), as it can make the systems useful beyond capturing (authoring, encoding, restoring). Just know that not everybody wants or needs a capture box to do more than purely capture. My own beefier AIW systems are where I also restore audio, encode MPEG, author DVDs, and do some basic Avisynth -- but as overflow to my main video system (more, faster).

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  #6  
02-06-2021, 09:00 AM
Zeta83 Zeta83 is offline
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My AIW is the AGP version.
The back of the box says "PCI or AGP", and I wasn't sure what to make of that, but I looked at the connectors and it does appear to be AGP.


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02-06-2021, 11:05 AM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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For an AGP build, these might be useful threads:

Windows XP desktop recommendations for video capture?

Capture desktop specification, hardware suggestions?

Asrock made some of the more interesting boards if you can find one.

Good Luck

BW
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  #8  
02-20-2021, 11:50 AM
OtakuSensei OtakuSensei is offline
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Just to throw it out there, "Asrock" was the low-end product line label of Asus. Not sure if they have continued that line or not as it was problematic towards the end of when we ceased carrying that brand of components at the PC shop I worked at years ago. I myself purchased a final model Intel Socket 478 Asrock motherboard, believe in either 2009 or 2010, and it was defective straight out of the box. That's not to say the entire Asrock product line was inherently defective products, but they did have a rather high percentage of DOA products, hence why the company I worked at ceased carrying said brand-label.

My own PC that I am still using presently at this very moment I built new in 2012; it is a dual boot setup with both Windows XP Pro SP and Windows 7 Pro 64-bit. For a brief time I had it tri-booting with Windows 8... but Windows 8 was the closest thing to literally being the HAL9000 I ever care to intentionally subject myself to so happily wiped that. Reason I bring this up is this motherboard is a Intel Socket 1155 motherboard made by Gigabyte, and I have it equipped with a Core-i7 and 16GB of DDR3 RAM... XP was never faster.

So there are some really good, semi-modern (by present standards), motherboards out there which officially support Windows XP. Problem is, like with this specific mobo I have, is that they're nigh impossible to source and when they do turn up on the market now they tend to get bid up to around $300 as this is also a motherboard which has been "officially" certified for use as a Hackintosh... which I have yet to personally give a try since I'm not a Apple fan.

But I digress, I have side-tracked from the root question of this topic, so shall now go back to that.

Regarding the ability to build or source a good system to run a ATI All-In-Wonder card in. AGP, Literally standing for "Accelerated Graphics Port", which was the old dedicated graphics card interface port standard for a good decade, is likely the most common type of ATI AIW card your going to find. So like with my own PC, if I were keen to get a AIW card I would need a much rarer PCI version since this mobo has PCI-E for the graphics card port. You can get nice Intel Socket 775 mobos, some of which will support Core2Duo CPUs, and have the AGP interface slot. And as video capture itself is not a super intensive application, as has already been suggested, even a Pentium 4 CPU should be more than adequate for handling a recording operation. I would not suggest transcoding and editing with such a computer though, it's not that they can't do such, but it doesn't make sense to use such a computer for that purpose anymore. Rather, offload the recorded file to a much more modern PC for the post-record editing and transcoding processes as a modern PC is not only more efficient at these tasks, but you'll have better software options available for these tasks.

Also to note, Intel's Socket 775 CPU line included:
Celeron D (Actually more powerful than the preceding socket 478 Pentium 4 line.)
Pentium 4 (A step up from CeleronD.)
Pentium D (Intel's first attempt at a virtual dual-core CPU, a slight step up from a Pentium 4.)
Core2Duo (True dual-core CPU, a big step up from a Pentium D.)
Core2Quad (A dual-core CPU with each core featuring virtual dual-cores for a simulated quad-core experience. Honestly these suckers run hot and only benefited high-end gaming.)
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03-02-2021, 12:15 AM
Zeta83 Zeta83 is offline
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Would it be advisable to just buy an old computer with AGP and put the AIW in it or would I be much better off building a new computer from scratch for capturing analog video?
The old computers are cheap enough, but would component age be of high concern? About how much would it cost to build a proper computer for analog capture?
I would kind of rather avoid building a new computer because I've never done that before and I've already got my hands in too many projects right now, but I might do it if it's the better choice. I've done plenty of component upgrades, I'm just not use to choosing cases and power supplies and all that.
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03-10-2021, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta83 View Post
My AIW is the AGP version.
The back of the box says "PCI or AGP", and I wasn't sure what to make of that, but I looked at the connectors and it does appear to be AGP.
That's the very first AIW Radeon. The 32mb PCI version had issues. The 32mb AGP was fine, but had graphics lag issues in 2000/XP OS (it was fine in 98SE/ME). That was my first AIW card back in 2001, and I upgraded around 2003 because the card's own heat damaged it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BW37 View Post
Asrock made some of the more interesting boards if you can find one.
Yep. The 4Core-Dual-SATA2 v2 is nice for AGP builds. The SATA2 is still slower than actual SATA2, moer like a "SATA 1.5" speed-wise. But runs those 775 E series dual-cores (E7400, etc), which gives you perfect 20mbit MPEG capturing (no dropped frames).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuSensei View Post
Just to throw it out there, "Asrock" was the low-end product line label of Asus.
Well, yes and no. Asrock was the Asus commodity brand (cheap bulk to OEMs, certain stores, etc) that was competing with Foxconn in the early 2000s. But skip ahead some years: Foxconn was making some decent boards, and Asrock was an entirely different company making unique and powerful boards. My z170 uses the Asrock Extreme 7+ board, which was one of the higher-rated boards at the time (2015) for the Skylake CPUs.

Quote:
1155 motherboard made by Gigabyte, and I have it equipped with a Core-i7 and 16GB of DDR3 RAM... XP was never faster.
z170? We use those Gigabyte boards here, but for an i3's on Linux desktops for non-video ('net, email, office, basic games). Those are fast, cool, quiet systems. Perfect computers to run in hot summer.

Quote:
So there are some really good, semi-modern (by present standards), motherboards out there which officially support Windows XP.
Wait ... you have an 1155 Gigabyte board running XP?

Which exact model board is that. I want to research it. I'm attempting to build the most powerful AIW system possible (PCI AIW), but I'd already written off Gigabyte. Even if it has no PCI, only PCIe, there are potentially ways to get a PCI card to work using a unique Chinese adapter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta83 View Post
Would it be advisable to just buy an old computer with AGP and put the AIW in it
No. Most "ready made" computers have junk for CPU cooler, case, power supply. Built it with all the right parts. I've often bought "whole systems" (cheaper), only to gut it for parts. Unused parts went to the recycle center (case, CPU cooler, PSU, modem cards, etc).

Quote:
The old computers are cheap enough, but would component age be of high concern?
Yes, sort of. You must removed the CPU, re-paste it. Or just replace with better cooler altogether. Toss the PSU unless good (cool quiet). Get a modern case that vents air out the top, PSU mounted bottom -- not a case that traps heat inside.

Quote:
I would kind of rather avoid building a new computer because I've never done that before and I've already got my hands in too many projects right now, but I might do it if it's the better choice. I've done plenty of component upgrades, I'm just not use to choosing cases and power supplies and all that.
I've build AIW computers for others, for a fee, plus parts. So you're not stranded, with no alternative. Building an AIW system can be an art.

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  #11  
03-10-2021, 07:38 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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There is an entire group of folks that work on making older versions of Windows work with newer hardware. Usually the problem is stuff like USB and storage drivers, but the latest hardware is requiring ACPI system files to be patched in order to boot. In some cases, the motherboard maker will release a custom BIOS with patched ACPI tables that supports XP. I know EVGA did this with one of their overclocking boards since XP has an advantage in benchmark testing compared to anything newer.

The fact is, right now Core2 and early Core i hardware that natively supports XP is still plentiful, so you shouldn't have a problem building a system to run a PCIe AIW card. Heck, they are making new boards supporting older platforms still. Biostar recently released a new H61 chipset board for Sandy Bridge CPUs and there are countless "X79" boards from China that can run old Xeons.
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03-12-2021, 11:00 AM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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@ Zeta83 - I don't think you will find a commercially made (Dell, HP, etc.) AGP based "old PC" that will be anything better than a P4 system. I looked on eBay for a Core 2 Duo "PC" with AGP and found none. I think the market was moving so swiftly to PCIe graphics that commercial PC makers saw no reason to make complete Core 2 systems with AGP graphics. That AGP/Core 2 Duo market existed almost completely for custom and home builders who wanted to extend the lives of their expensive AGP cards. New complete PC buyers were looking forward, not backwards for compatibility.

Building a PC isn't that hard but does take a bit more time to get the basics together. However, I bet the overall time it would take to build from scratch vs. clean up and restore an old XP PC (including OS reinstall and clean-up) would not be that different. All of us home builders started where you are now: we did lots of upgrades and OS reinstalls before we took on a complete build. That said, I understand the time pressures. If my wife knew I was taking time to respond to this thread, she would throttle me. I'm supposed to be getting our house ready to sell!
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  #13  
03-12-2021, 11:06 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The last Intel chipset with native AGP support was the i865/875. It was originally designed around Socket 478 and for the Pentium 4. ASRock and Gigabyte later released boards with the i865 and Socket 775 to allow folks with high end AGP cards to continue using them with more modern CPUs. Some of those boards received BIOS updates to support Socket 775 Core2Duo chips.

ASRock also released Socket 775 motherboards based on the VIA PT880 chipset that supported both AGP and PCIe slots. It's kinda quirky though and not recommended.

https://www.asrock.com/mb/via/4coredual-sata2/
http://www.asrock.com/mb/via/775dual-vsta/
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03-12-2021, 11:36 AM
Zeta83 Zeta83 is offline
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I actually did some research and ended up ordering that Asrock 4 core dual SATA2 board a couple of days ago. Would it be worth it to actually put a quad-core chip in there? I was thinking a dual-core, max. From what I've read, the basic capture portion of the job doesn't need more than a Pentium 4 unless you're doing MPEG encoding or editing and restoring. Can an XP capture system based on a board like this benefit from a quad-core chip?
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03-12-2021, 11:48 AM
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I have a pair of the 4CoreDual-SATA2 boards, one is my current main personal AIW capture system (built in 2013 or 2014). The CPU on one of the boards is the Core2 Duo E7400, and I forget the other.

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03-12-2021, 01:34 PM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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Check out post 40 of the 2nd thread I linked earlier.

E7600 seems like a great CPU choice. As OtakuSensei stated earlier, the quads run hot and they slow the clock of the board so they don't give much if and benefit for capture.

Lots of YouTube videos on building a PC. That would be a good start. Ask specific questions here as needed.
Enjoy!
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03-12-2021, 02:12 PM
Zeta83 Zeta83 is offline
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I was eyeing the e8600, but it looks like maybe it's not a good idea because the FSB speed is faster than the board officially supports.

-- merged --

I couldn't find a 4CoreDual-SATA2 board. I thought I did, but it turns out that Pctekonline actually closed in 2013 and never bothered to take down their seemingly functional web site. So don't use that site.

Anyway, I ended up ordering the ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA instead, because it seemed to be the next-best board I could actually get. I won't have SATA2, but I think I read that the SATA2 on that board wasn't full SATA2 speed anyway, and the one I got does have SATA1 (and there are other workarounds). Although, I have read that certain SATA3 hard drives don't work right with it. It seems like most new hard drives are SATA3. How do I make sure I get one that works with this motherboard?

Here are the other parts I currently have in my cart ready to buy online:

ARESGAME Power Supply 500W 80+ Bronze Certified PSU (AGV500)

Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo CPU Cooler, 4 CDC Heatpipes, 120mm PWM Fan, Aluminum Fins for AMD Ryzen/Intel LG1151Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo CPU Cooler, 4 CDC Heatpipes, 120mm P...

Rosewill TYRFING ATX Mid Tower Gaming PC Computer Case with 2 Pre-Installed 120mm Fans, 400mm Graphics Card and 360mm AIO Liquid Cooler Support, Bottom Mount PSU and HDD/SSDRosewill TYRFING ATX Mid Tower Gaming PC Computer Case with 2 Pr...

Intel Core 2 Duo E7600 3.06GHz 3.067GHz 3M/1066 SLGTD Socket 775 CPU Processor +Intel Core 2 Duo E7600 3.06GHz 3.067GHz 3M/1066 SLGTD Socket 775...

A-Tech 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 667MHz DIMM PC2-5300 1.8V CL5 240-Pin Non-ECC UDIMM Desktop RAM Memory Upgrade KitA-Tech 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 667MHz DIMM PC2-5300 1.8V CL5 240-Pin
(1GB x 2) | 2GB Kit
DDR2 667MHz (PC2-5300)

I also bought an I/O shield for this board from an eBay seller who makes them.

-- merged --

Actually I did find a couple of eBay listings for the 4CoreDual-SATA2, but they cost between $209-$488 and I'd have to wait a few weeks for them to get here from other countries, and I figured the 4CoreDual-VSTA was probably good enough (and cheaper and arrives sooner).

-- merged --

Is this setup fine or should I keep trying to get the 4CoreDual-SATA2? I found a couple of them available, but I already ordered the 4CoreDual-VSTA and the 4CoreDual-SATA2 would take a couple of months to get here...

-- merged --

The guy selling the 4CoreDual-SATA2 lowered the price, but if I order it it won't be here until May and the other one is already on the way.

Would it be worth the trouble and potential expense to buy the 4CoreDual-SATA2 and try to return or resell the 4CoreDual-VSTA?
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03-19-2021, 11:23 AM
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I would not buy it, no.

I'm low on time right now, won't post much today or this weekend. But what are you trying to do? Just build a good AIW system? If so, there are other options for AGP or PCI (not PCIe, though possible).

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03-19-2021, 11:43 AM
Zeta83 Zeta83 is offline
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Basically I just want to make sure I can capture my analog Hi8 tapes in full archival quality without dropping frames or losing quality, but if the parts are available and not too expensive I figure I might as well get the ones that will work the best.

Ultimately I'd like to have a digital archive of all my analog tapes in their original quality, then I'll prepare copies for optimal viewing, which may involve some restoration and putting them on optical discs and/or deinterlacing them for viewing on computers, mobile devices, and streaming. My newer computers are a Mac Pro 1,1 tower with a Blu-Ray (et al) burner, an M1 Mac Mini, and an i5 Lenovo laptop. If I can get the files from the capture PC to my newer computers quickly, even better.

The ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA that I ordered a few days ago is on its way (as are the other parts I previously mentioned), while a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card, an Intel E7600, and the AIW AGP Radeon are currently in my possession, ready to be installed.

-- merged --

It turns out the Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo CPU Cooler doesn't work on LGA 775 anymore because they changed the shape of the included hardware, but I might be able to get the old hardware directly from Cooler Master, but it will take forever to get here... So, I think I'll just get the Intel-supplied cooler because it was designed for it and I can get it cheap and soon (unless I'd be much better off with a different one).
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03-20-2021, 12:30 PM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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I think your XP hardware looks OK though I have no experience with those power supply case brands. 2TB Seagate HD's are usually recommended for capture drives. If getting an OEM Intel cooler on eBay, I'd look for one designed for a Socket 775 quad core. That should have the copper core and be the best Intel choice for Socket 775.

I'm concerned about moving files to a Mac for further processing. Capturing on an AIW based XP system is considered about the best option, but doing further processing on a Mac can be difficult.

Check out these search results from this forum for "transfer huffyuv files to mac". It's a start.

Hopefully, some Mac fluent guys will help out here. I can't since I'm, Mac illiterate

BW
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