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  #1  
06-08-2020, 08:58 PM
prenerts prenerts is offline
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Does anyone have a solution for lossless S-video capture into Windows 10? There don't seem to be any cards with Win10 drivers that aren't H.264. I want to bring uncompressed analog video into my NLE for extensive assembly and editing, then out to MPEG-2 disks. I tried a BlackMagic Intensity 4K and it constantly crashed.
Also it's AVI files looked worse than the original.
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  #2  
06-08-2020, 09:02 PM
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Blackmagic cards are trash for SD capturing (VHS, etc).

What you want are specific known good cards. For example, ATI 600 USB, and clones, and certain Pinnacles. But also realize that Win10 is a terrible capturing OS, it gives you grief -- especially at "updates" (reality= upgrades). Capture cards often uninstall, refuse to reinstall, thanks to MS not giving a crap about video anymore.

BTW, I have a few cards in the marketplace subforum.

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  #3  
06-08-2020, 09:34 PM
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I don't know BM cards, I have only had one BM USB capture device.

However your description of crashing sounds like either (a) your on a laptop (b) your trying to capture video over a USB 3.0 port

USB 2.0 is far more strict over the quality of the hardware and device drivers, its very stable.. manufacturers hate it.

When the USB 3.0 spec was written the manufacturers got to define it.. and it went wild.

USB 3.0 means whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean, they can "fine print" any device exclusions or excuses into any description or none at all. My motherboard actually has in fine print (for Mass storage devices only!) any other device plugged into my USB 3.0 Blue Screens the operating system.

USB 3.0 is horrible... (at Most it "may" support "some" high speed USB speed sticks with built in HDD controllers for high speed transfers).

If your on a laptop, USB 3.0 is so unstable its standard practice for manufacturers to install a USB 2.0 port on the upper Right-hand side of the laptop to support boot time BIOS entry with a keyboard. Its that bad.. they have to limit themselves to using an older standard to get a reliable boot up connection.

If your on USB 3.0 Thunderbolt Thunder C or Boltz connectors.. good luck.

USB 2.0 has more than enough bandwidth for Full D1 or SD resolution and Stereo audio.. most capture devices connected by USB 2.0 have no problem with it.

Don't believe the USB 3.0 backwards support propaganda.. its not true.

I don't know about Epiphan or Magewell over USB 3.0 they are made for it.. but I have only ever got them to work reliably over a USB 2.0 port. And 2K or 4K just isn't possible over a USB port.. you really have to go to a PCIe capture card.

The Black Magic Shuttle uses Analog Devices chips if I recall and they have their time base correction circuit permanently disabled was the rumor.. so without an external time base corrector.. any glitch in the signal will cause a device driver fault that halts the capture.

People capturing from a perfect signal or capturing for very short segments.. sometimes succeed with a Shuttle.. but usually double up on gear and get something which can handle SD and imperfect signals if they have to work with SD.

I don't know if any of the older BM SD hardware was ever recommended.. mostly "crickets" when people ask.

I would agree the ATI USB 600 or one of the later Pinnacle Moviebox devices 500, 510, 700, 710 do best with SD capture if you have an external TBC or something to stabilize the signal.. but its a fight all the way. VirtualDub works fine with these.. but you will need the Crossbar thing or Graphedit to pre-set the crossbar if you plan to use S-Video for input.. the Pinnacle default to Composite Input and VirtualDub "filters out" the crossbar with its de-duplication code for preventing duplicate crossbars in its menus.

I briefly looked at removing the crossbar filter by recompiling VirtualDub 1.9.11 but got distracted and never finished. I know there is an open bug report in VirtualDub MOD for it.. but they too seem to have never fixed it. OBS is aware of it too but also never fixed it.. all the new coders are more interested in Game capture.. which I guess is where all the money in support is these days. I just fiddle with it thinking it would be cool to finally get it working right.

But since your operating system will remember and "default" to the S-Video Input once it is set across multiple reboots.. its more an inconvenience than a true handicap. Set it and forget it. Declare victory and run.

Last edited by jwillis84; 06-08-2020 at 09:59 PM.
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06-08-2020, 09:56 PM
prenerts prenerts is offline
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Thanks jwillis for the good info. I'm not going USB at all, there are no lossless encoders that I know of built into any USB capture devices. I was just hoping that someone had discovered a lossless analog capture technique for Win10, pciE that's stable. Looks like I'll have to unmothball my XP machine since everyone seems certain it's the best route for what I'm after.
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  #5  
06-08-2020, 11:38 PM
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Details make all the difference in the world.

Lossless implies either full Uncompressed or use of a Lossless codec to temporarily compress.

Either the device outside the Computer needs to perform the Lossless compression for you, or you have to bring the whole Uncompressed thing back across the connection and do it on the Computer.

I don't know of any standalone hardware compression codecs that are "Lossless".. Matrox O2 (PCIe) and some Aja (firewire) come close with near lossless codecs.. but they really aren't needed for PC capture of the Uncompressed stream.. its just too low to worry about.

Several TV Tuner cards for the PCI/PCIe bus have the raw Uncompressed YUV available that VirtualDub can use, Dell Angel cards, some AverMediaTV cards.. I've been surprised to find that most "Preview" pins on the drivers in DirectShow are Raw.. if VirtualDub can access them that way you can save the stream direct to hard drives and compress it later with a Lossless encoder. I wouldn't try to do it inbound at the same time with VirtualDub though it might cause frame drops or sound samples to be dropped.

These same cards however are more often used for MPEG2 or higher compression to save TV programs to disk.. which they do quite well.. but if you plan to edit in fine detail.. you probably want the Raw frames first.

If VirtualDub won't capture the Raw feed for some reason, you can resort to GraphEdit and capture and dump straight to an AVI file and then whatever you like with it. Its not elegant.. but you know exactly how the feed was processed.

I've been going the Uncompressed route myself for some time.. but have very little real need for edit or video clean up.. it all gets Compressed to MPEG2 anyway eventually to keep the interlacing. If you really don't care about what you loose by deinterlacing and want really small files for storage.. you can do that too.

But I'm trying to strike a middle ground.

MPEG2 is still 4:2:0 and keeps the Interlacing.. its a tried and true method most people have accepted as good enough for decades.. as long as your not trying to edit or fix something.

Its very true newer ways of compressing have come along.. but they are all Progressive and de-interlace "first" throwing away part of that old school information in the original SD video. There are always new ways of de-interlacing being discovered and do a better job of de-interlacing.. so keeping it leaves the door open to a better transfer to Progressive down the line.

Game capture stuff all seeks to de-interlace and blows that possibility out of the water. I'm not sure if its possible to turn de-interlacing off in a Black Magic Shuttle.

I've played with many buses, PCI, AGP, PCIe, USB

AGP and PCIe are dedicated pipelines, so there is no cross traffic with other cards on their connections.

But you can almost get that with USB.. and for SD its enough even Uncompressed, Raw.. if its pre-compressed to MPEG2 by the device at the end of the USB cable.. its even more convenient.

But all of this doesn't address "good" hardware that handles the signal properly and doesn't skew the hue, skew the brightness or contrast.. or over react to Copyright Protection signals, analog CP or digital CP.

I am far from any kind of expert.. i think I'm, beginning to see what is not worth worrying about.. but I get lots of learning surprises.

As a suggestion though:

Check out the Matrox O2 for the PC or Mac (PCIe or Thunderbolt) or the Aja IOHD (firewire 800 for Mac only) those are standalone codecs and I (vaguely) think they do have an Uncompressed setting on each.

You will be restricted to using XP or OSX 10.8 I believe since neither continued updating their device drivers after they stopped making them.

The down side on both is you will need a pre-amp because they generally have XLR connectors for balanced multichannel audio.. except on the desktop model for the Matrox O2 mini..

They would never, ever compress to Lossless Hufyuv or Lagarith for you.. you would have to do that yourself.. but you would have the raw video.

They are beasts however, and make a lot of heat and howl when running.

The Matrox O2 also has a hardware compression option on any model labeled "MAX" which lets you compress on it inbound, or spin out the compression of raw from the connected PC as a background task.

These were used for field work and TV production work, so be prepared for their size and heft.. it takes quite a bit of dedication to really want to work in Raw with these. The cabling overhead is large.

Last edited by jwillis84; 06-08-2020 at 11:55 PM.
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  #6  
06-08-2020, 11:42 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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If you want USB here is the rule of thumb: USB 2.0 devices work best/only on USB 2.0 port, USB 3.0 devices work best/only on USB 3.0 port.
I have USB 2.0 devices that works for 5 seconds on USB 3.0 port and then freeze, I have USB 3.0 devices that cannot be even detected by a USB 2.0 port.
But if you have a desktop then yes expansion slot is the best way to go.
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  #7  
06-09-2020, 05:56 AM
pinto pinto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prenerts View Post
Does anyone have a solution for lossless S-video capture into Windows 10?
Yes.
AVerMedia DVD EZMaker PCI Card
PCI to PCI-Express Card Adapter
It can even capture macrovision protected video, if you change a registry value.
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  #8  
06-09-2020, 10:44 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinto View Post
Yes.
AVerMedia DVD EZMaker PCI Card
PCI to PCI-Express Card Adapter
It can even capture macrovision protected video, if you change a registry value.
From the product description looks like it is built in MPEG-2 encoder chip, therefore he can't capture lossless with it unless someone who owns it confirms otherwise.
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  #9  
06-09-2020, 10:56 AM
pinto pinto is offline
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Primo: SAA7130 has no MPEG2 encoder, so encoding is done by software.
Secundo: I have this combo, so I know it from authopsy
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  #10  
06-09-2020, 11:05 AM
prenerts prenerts is offline
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Thanks for all that good info. Ill be setting up WinXP again so I can use an ATI600 or that Matrox or similar for "lossless" capture. What I want is the cleanest ADC process that doesn't throw away noticeable info from the already sparse analog stream (4:1:1, for my oldest tapes). I can't go straight to MPEG-2 because I'm editing/creating content in my NLE and would have to re-compress it all to make DVDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinto View Post
Primo: SAA7130 has no MPEG2 encoder, so encoding is done by software.
Secundo: I have this combo, so I know it from authopsy
Ok, but what file format does it create?
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  #11  
06-09-2020, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prenerts View Post
analog stream (4:1:1, for my oldest tapes).
Analog tapes are not 4:1:1, and the closest is 4:2:2 in a digital equivalent.
4:1:1 is lossy DV.

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  #12  
06-09-2020, 11:13 AM
prenerts prenerts is offline
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Of course; thanks for correction.
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  #13  
06-09-2020, 12:13 PM
pinto pinto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prenerts View Post
Ok, but what file format does it create?
Have you ever used VirtualDub or AmarecTV?
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  #14  
06-09-2020, 12:19 PM
prenerts prenerts is offline
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No I haven't used those. I use WinDV when I have 1394 tapes, but now I want to digitize older 8mm and Hi8 tapes.
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06-09-2020, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prenerts View Post
Ok, but what file format does it create?
It depends on software - I capture in AmarecTV to AVI (codec UT Video).
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  #16  
06-09-2020, 11:41 PM
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Probably the simplest path to a Win10 solution for you will be the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB.

It does have x64 bit drivers that work "best" in Win7 and may work in Win10.

It was designed for USB 2.0 so I would try to use it on a true USB 2.0 port and avoid any USB 3.0 ports.

Win 10 is up to version 2004 now so its a long long ways from Win7 and includes many antivirus and anti-malware and security features which interrupt and steal your CPU's attention constantly, those can add dropouts to any recorded video no matter how powerful the processor. Its interrupting code.. and there is nothing that can compensate for that.

But you can try.

Falling back down the list of possibilities, the "best" at the lowest cost would probably be one of the ATI All in Wonder AGP cards, preference being on the ATI All in Wonder 9600 xt.

You will need an XP machine to do that, but the video port is AGP and does not share interrupts with any other PCI slots on the motherboard.

VirtualDub 1.9.11 works perfectly with its crossbars and capture and source configuration pages.. so that is the clearest path.

But building and maintaining a good XP system in 2020 is more an art than a science. But if your going to do lots of Uncompressed capture, its probably the best path.

Windows 10 is just a "browser" operating system that is best suited for business or laptops, its not for serious SD video work anymore. Trying to force it to do something like that will just make you unhappy.

Either build a Windows 7 system and get an ATI TVW 600 USB and use VirtualDub on that

Or build a Windows XP system and get an ATI AIW 9600 AGP and use VirtualDub on that

Those are the optimum paths for Uncompressed SD unless you want to spend a serious amount of time and money

Tip #1 Be sure your looking for an "All in Wonder" not a plain "Radeon" 9600, the "All in Wonder" is (more) than a plain "Radeon" card. The "All in Wonder" includes a TV tuner and Video Capture chips on the same board as the video card. Its much more than just a video card.

Tip #2 the ATI AIW 9600 has a very special D-shape connector cable, they are not made anymore and cannot not be found easily. If you pay a premium price for an ATI AIW 9600 it (must) come with this cable or its worthless. The driver disc is optional, driver discs can be found online, device drivers can be found even on the ATI/AMD website.. but the ATI AIW 9600 video cable with the D-connector is "priceless".

Last edited by jwillis84; 06-09-2020 at 11:52 PM.
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  #17  
06-22-2020, 03:17 PM
prenerts prenerts is offline
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I've decided to dump Win10 and go with my 7 machine for capture. Waiting for a Pinnacle 510-USB to arrive from -LS ; then I'll wrestle with the S-video input issue in VirtualDub. All the good advice here has been super helpful so far. Thanks everyone

Actually I've found Win10 to be stable and fine for editing HD in Vegas. I just stay offline and have annoying services disabled. My challenge is getting re-aquainted with SD and analog signal processing.

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  #18  
06-23-2020, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prenerts View Post
I just stay offline and have annoying services disabled.
Doesn't that mean disabling the entire OS?

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  #19  
06-23-2020, 07:34 AM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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Quote:
then I'll wrestle with the S-video input issue in VirtualDub.
No wrestling required. Simply choose your "device" (the Pinnacle thingee), choose the video source (composite or S-Video) then choose the compression. Options available in my VDub are "no compression", HUFFYUV or Lagarith (which I installed from an exe file I found somewhere; was it here??).

Simple as, bro!
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06-23-2020, 08:44 AM
prenerts prenerts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Doesn't that mean disabling the entire OS?
Yeah, people do hate Win10 for its intrusiveness, but the beast can be tamed to a degree. When it's tuned well I have no problems and my machine really flies. I can render multi-track HD, with filters, in better than real time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hushpower View Post
No wrestling required. Simply choose your "device" (the Pinnacle thingee), choose the video source (composite or S-Video) then choose the compression. Options available in my VDub are "no compression", HUFFYUV or Lagarith (which I installed from an exe file I found somewhere; was it here??).

Simple as, bro!
My Pinnacle 510 arrived from -LS and I'm working with it. Got VDub working, and see a preview for composite input, but S-video shows black screen. I guess I'll be wrestling after all.

My VDub shows the 510 under DEVICES but says "No video source" under VIDEO SOURCE.

Ideas?
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