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  #1  
11-22-2020, 10:51 PM
David_MD David_MD is offline
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I have a Sony TRV460 which can play Digital 8 and Hi8 tapes. I have about a dozen Hi8 tapes I want to digitize and edit in iMovie or something. I have some D8 too, but am assuming a transfer of that via firewire will be lossless (I hope).

I have a late 2012 MacMini and the latest MacOS (Catalina10.15.07) with iMovie 10.2.1. I used a 4 Pin to 9 Pin firewire cable to connect the camcorder to my MacMini. (Actually my TRV460 firewire didn't work so I bought another one on eBay).

I was able to import some Hi8 video.

But when I played it back on iMovie or export it to using highest quality export, it looks okay but nowhere nearly as good as plugging the old fashioned analog cable from the camcorder into my 4K TV. The analog video on my TV has better color and less grain.

I then tried Lifeflix and that worked significantly better after its HD conversion, but analog using a conventional yellow jack analog output (not S-Video) still looks better on my TV.

I want to preserve these tapes in the highest quality possible. Why is the quality so bad importing into iMovie and what can I do to make it as good as possible? From other posts, it looks like the Hi8 to D8 loses color and introduces grain.

My Sony TRV460 is Digital8 with Video8/Hi8 playback and has firewire, analog and s-video output. I think the original Hi8 was done with a Canon ES4000. I still have it, but haven't tried it. I'm afraid to put tapes in it as the exterior is sticky plastic. My concern is it might eat a tape. It does have S-Video out.

The tapes start from the early 90s.

From reading a lot of posts, it looks like I should use a PC to capture video instead and perhaps get Pinnacle 500-USB. I have a Win10 laptop with USB 2.0 and 3.0. I may be able to get my hands on a Win7 laptop.

Is that what I should do, get a Pinnacle 500-USB and import into my Win10 laptop? Do I need a TBC or is that in my camcorder? And what software do I use to capture it? Is it V-Dub?

I may just need to figure out the tapes worth capturing and send them in to lordsmith after doing a reasonable job of capturing them at home before entrusting them to UPS/FEDEX. If I used Lifeflix and the Mac, it's not horrible, at least not so far.
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  #2  
11-23-2020, 01:32 PM
mjb2019 mjb2019 is offline
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The TRV460 has TBC. Turn it on in the Standard Set menu. It kicks in for any analog source. It stabilizes the picture horizontally, i.e. along the left and right edges you should not see any wavy motion.

In the Standard Set menu, turn on AV->DV OUT when you want to digitize a signal from an external analog device. You are using your camera as a capture device. The output goes through the i.LINK/Firewire/IEEE 1394 cable, and it is in DV format, encoded by the camera. DV is a lossy but fairly high quality format, as long as you don't look too closely.

For NTSC sources, DV uses 4:1:1 color subsampling. This accounts for the color issues you are noticing and there is no way to fix it. I usually bump up the saturation slightly when converting to other formats, for aesthetics, but this is not really correcting the actual color loss.

An alternative would be to use a different capture device instead of the camera, so that you can get 4:2:0 or maybe even 4:2:2 color, either of which will be noticeably better than 4:1:1. (4:4:4 is generally not an option due to bandwidth limits.) However you then have to deal with the quirks of that device and capture software. And for signal from a VCR, you will want to get a TBC or TBC-like device to stabilize the picture (many of us use a Panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 DVD recorder). If these are just home movies, probably no one really cares and you don't need to waste your time trying to get the highest quality.

I'm unsure about the S-Video cable option on that camera. It might only be for output. But if it does work for input, then you could hook it up to an ES10 or directly to a higher-end S-VHS VCR. Worth a shot. Some S-Video circuitry does not do a good job, so you have to see what you get with your devices and decide from there if it's worth it.

Digital8 tapes have the DV video encoded on them already, so there is no new conversion happening. So yes, when you play those tapes with the camera and import via Firewire, you are getting a lossless copy of the DV video data on the tape. You probably do lose metadata (recording date/time) but that's a minor inconvenience.

I don't know what iMovie does, but be aware that the aspect ratio of the DV will probably be off. The files will have the standard capture size of 720x480 non-square pixels (if NTSC) which is 3:2. The Digital8 recordings should take up the full 720 width and need to be tagged for 4:3 or 16:9 display. The Hi8/Video8 conversions or captures from an external analog source probably will have black stripes down the left & right sides, and need to be tagged for 15:11 or 20:11 display (if that's an option, otherwise 4:3 or 16:9 is close enough), or you can crop 16 pixels of width and tag the resulting 704x480 as 4:3 or 16:9.
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  #3  
11-23-2020, 02:07 PM
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- The 500-USB isn't a recommended card. This chipset is blah.
- Lifeflix is just low-end DV workflow software. Quality will be be had.
- iMovie was never quality.
- Sticky external plastic is often (but always) a sign of humidity damage. Unsure of the camera is good or bad.

A Win10 laptop will work fine, with the right capture card. (Hint: check the marketplace subforum here. )

TBC is required for all workflows. With only a line TBC in the camera, you can take your chance (including chancing wasting more time with unsatisfactory results). Add a frame TBC to for-sure remove all possible issues. Don't worry about the costs -- buy it, use it, resell it.

How many tapes?

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  #4  
11-23-2020, 05:22 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I have a different experience with Pinnacle devices as long as they are not built in MPEG-2 encoder and if you use a third party capture app not the Pinnacle Studio:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...nnacle-500-USB

Quote:
I don't know what iMovie does, but be aware that the aspect ratio of the DV will probably be off. The files will have the standard capture size of 720x480 non-square pixels (if NTSC) which is 3:2. The Digital8 recordings should take up the full 720 width and need to be tagged for 4:3 or 16:9 display. The Hi8/Video8 conversions or captures from an external analog source probably will have black stripes down the left & right sides, and need to be tagged for 15:11 or 20:11 display (if that's an option, otherwise 4:3 or 16:9 is close enough), or you can crop 16 pixels of width and tag the resulting 704x480 as 4:3 or 16:9.
No, All analog sources should be tagged 4:3, Very few anamorphic laser discs are tagged 16:9 as well as very rare pre-recorded VHS and S-VHS tapes. In addition, digital formats that may carry the 16:9 tag are widescreen DV and anamorphic DVD, but those don't need capturing, they are transferred or ripped to hard drive.

Last edited by latreche34; 11-23-2020 at 05:49 PM.
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  #5  
11-23-2020, 07:32 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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There is great variation in the end viewed quality when original analog tape video is brought to a HD TV, and a lot depends on the details of the process and the quality of the original tape, especially if there is noise as is is common to most home recording shot in anything but bright light. Some hardware (e.g., TV sets) are much better at processing SD analog input than others. Some may do a nice job cleaning up composite video and fail on s-video, others just the opposite. Computer monitors are especially harsh to captured SD analog video. Much home-use software and economical capture hardware does not do justice to the potential of SD analog tape recordings.

FWIW: some Video8/Hi8 camcorders cold be set to record in: standard 4:3 mode, a letter boxed wide mode (black bars at top and bottom of the screen), and a 16x9 Full screen that was an anamorphic image (squashed in from the sides to fit a 16x9 image into 4:3 box). The accomplished this by not using portions of the top and bottom of the image seen by the sensor. With some home videos you could run into that.
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  #6  
11-23-2020, 09:14 PM
mjb2019 mjb2019 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
All analog sources should be tagged 4:3
Hrm, well, that is true for DVD/MPEG-2 authoring, which I didn't think the OP was asking about. And indeed there are caveats to any blanket advice about 16:9.

But I have the DCR-TRV480, almost the exact same camera as the OP. I have not messed with its 16:9 features at all, but have done enough SD Digital8, Video8, and VCR transfers with it to observe that analog sources get a Rec.601-style capture, with the horizontal blanking along the sides of the 720480 output. This indicates a 10:11 SAR and 15:11 DAR.

For MPEG-2/DVD, you have no choice but to tag 4:3, but I've read in this forum or maybe VideoHelp that some DVD players scale 4:3-tagged 720480 such that the inner 704480 fills the 4:3 area and the horizontal blanking ends up outside of that boundary. That is, they effectively ignore the 4:3 and do 15:11 instead.

AFAIK, other players, including web players, VLC, etc., are not so clever, and just scale the entire image, including the horizontal blanking, to be 4:3, resulting in a slightly squished image. This is only a ~3% difference in scaled width though...barely noticeable.

But I mean just for advising what the tag should be in a lossless, DV, or MPEG-4 capture from an analog source, with the horizontal blanking signal visible down the sides, I see no reason for it to be 4:3 when 15:11 is likely to be more accurate. Or of course you could crop to 704 and tag it 4:3. Nevertheless, this is getting into the weeds and we can't always know if the aspect ratio was really ever correct to begin with.

Last edited by mjb2019; 11-23-2020 at 10:06 PM.
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  #7  
11-23-2020, 11:04 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I think you are mixing up pixel aspect ratio PAR and display aspect ratio DAR, Analog video is always 4:3 when displayed no matter what the PAR is, 720 is a raw resolution for analog and should be cropped to 704x480 for NTSC with a PAR tag of 10:11 and 704x576 for PAL/SECAM with a PAR tag of 12:11 as follows:

704/480 x 10/11 = 4/3
704/576 x 12/11 = 4/3

Some people avoid aspect ratio tagging/flagging by resizing to a square pixel resolution.
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11-24-2020, 06:22 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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It is worth noting that while traditional SD TVs were limited to a nominally 4:3 display area, and the viewed image was subject of course to overscan settings. Broadcast standards were based on the presumed 4:3 display, and that works for years to everyone's satisfaction until ... enter the era of home theater, high quality distribution media, and and large displays

Current HD TVs typically offer user selectable aspect ratios, so while the the pixel matrix was fixed; e.g. 720:480, the image seen on screen was based on how the display interpreted the signal and the user's settings.

For example, the Hitachi TV set I have in my man cave offers display aspect options of: AUTO, 4:3, 16:6, Zoom1, Zoom2, and Full (reduces overscan) depending on the input used. But this will depend on the equipment used.
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  #9  
11-24-2020, 12:39 PM
mjb2019 mjb2019 is offline
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latreche34, I'm pretty sure I'm not mixing up PAR (SAR) and DAR. To reiterate:

In order for the 704480 portion of the 720480 frame to be 4:3, then we must display the file with 15:11 DAR (if possible), or first crop it to 704480 and display it with 4:3 DAR. Either way, the PAR is 10:11.

MPEG-2, as used by DVD, only supports 4:3 tags in the stream, implying 8:9 PAR when the frame is 720480. However it might still display as 15:11 via some standalone DVD players.

Rec.601 defines 710.85486 as the real 4:3 active area, but this implies 10:11 PAR and thus the above remains correct for all the devices & standards that use 704480 as the active area.

(Various caveats apply, as there can be variance among source material, capture devices, and displays.)
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  #10  
11-24-2020, 02:41 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
In order for the 704480 portion of the 720480 frame to be 4:3, then we must display the file with 15:11 DAR (if possible), or first crop it to 704480 and display it with 4:3 DAR. Either way, the PAR is 10:11.
720 for captured videos is a lost cause, no assigned PAR can displays it properly, There is no such 15:11 DAR, DAR is either 4:3 or 16:19 without any other processing. To get 720 to display right you either have to add the right amount of black lines vertically to un-squeeze it and display it with 4:3 DAR OR add the right amount of black pixels horizontally to each line to un-squeeze it and display it with 16:9 DAR.

Quote:
MPEG-2, as used by DVD, only supports 4:3 tags in the stream, implying 8:9 PAR when the frame is 720480. However it might still display as 15:11 via some standalone DVD players.
Again, with 8:9 PAR the overall DAR will be 4:3 but the active video area is not, same problem as above.

Quote:
Rec.601 defines 710.85486 as the real 4:3 active area, but this implies 10:11 PAR and thus the above remains correct for all the devices & standards that use 704480 as the active area.
All my NTSC captures are 486, but the extra 6 lines are just black lines like the 16 pixels, They have to be cropped off along the 16 pixels to get down to 704x480 and give each pixel an aspect ratio of 10:11 to finally get a real 4:3 DAR containing mostly active video information.
I have demonstrated this already over at VH.
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  #11  
11-25-2020, 04:01 PM
mjb2019 mjb2019 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
720 for captured videos is a lost cause, no assigned PAR can displays it properly, There is no such 15:11 DAR
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, because it is demonstrably untrue.

If your concern is that not all formats or players will honor 15:11 DAR, that's a different issue. I agree that it's better to sacrifice some accuracy for compatibility, in the short term.

Compatibility is not an issue for my original 720480 captures. They're not being played anywhere but on my computer. I can tag them 15:11 and rest assured they will have the correct aspect ratio when I play them in VLC, and I know FFmpeg will transcode them with correct AR tags.

(OK, so, 15:11 DAR is an estimate, and 71280:52129 is said to be more accurate, but it's a 1-pixel difference, and it is academic since MPEG-4 assumes 10:11 PAR and thus implies 15:11 DAR when given a 720480 frame. The 704480 area within that frame stays 4:3. It's just math.)

Look what FFmpeg reports for the SAR (FFmpeg's "SAR" is the PAR) and the DAR for your own cropped capture:

ffmpeg -hide_banner -i AOL704.mp4 2>&1 | find "Video:"
Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(tv, smpte170m), 704x480 [SAR 10:11 DAR 4:3], 12580 kb/s, 59.94 fps, 59.94 tbr, 60k tbn, 119.88 tbc (default)

Play the file in VLC and you will see it plays as 704528, which is indeed 4:3.

Pad it back to 720 wide and see what FFmpeg does with the AR tags automatically:

ffmpeg -hide_banner -i AOL704.mp4 -t 2 -vf pad=720:480:8:0:red -crf 0 -y wnn720.mp4
ffmpeg -hide_banner -i wnn720.mp4 2>&1 | find "Video:"
Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High 4:4:4 Predictive) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p, 720x480 [SAR 10:11 DAR 15:11], 46108 kb/s, 59.94 fps, 59.94 tbr, 60k tbn, 119.88 tbc (default)

FFmpeg knows to preserve the 10:11 SAR, so it writes a 15:11 DAR. VLC honors this DAR, playing 720528, so the circle remains perfect and the active picture area remains 4:3. So your statement "no assigned PAR can displays it properly, There is no such 15:11 DAR" seems to be untrue.

And it works in reverse; crop the 15:11 content and you get 4:3 as expected:

ffmpeg -hide_banner -i wnn720.mp4 -vf crop=704:480:8:0 -crf 0 -y wnn704.mp4
ffmpeg -hide_banner -i wnn704.mp4 2>&1 | find "Video:"
Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High 4:4:4 Predictive) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p, 704x480 [SAR 10:11 DAR 4:3], 45336 kb/s, 59.94 fps, 59.94 tbr, 60k tbn, 119.88 tbc (default)

If I were to follow your advice and instead tag the 720480 as 4:3...

ffmpeg -hide_banner -i AOL704.mp4 -t 2 -vf pad=720:480:8:0:red -crf 0 -aspect 4/3 -y wnn720-43.mp4
ffmpeg -hide_banner -i wnn720-43.mp4 2>&1 | find "Video:"
Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High 4:4:4 Predictive) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p, 720x480 [SAR 8:9 DAR 4:3], 46108 kb/s, 59.94 fps, 59.94 tbr, 60k tbn, 119.88 tbc (default)

...now it is similar to typical SD captures found on DVD. It displays in VLC as 720x540. Yes, that's 4:3, but the entire frame is now squished; the circle is a slightly tall oval, because the 704480 portion is no longer 4:3.

Other discussion of note, to prove that I am not just pulling 15:11 out of my butt:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...th-720-padding
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...3-aspect-ratio
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ng#post2473072
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  #12  
11-25-2020, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
720 for captured videos is a lost cause,
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjb2019 View Post
For MPEG-2/DVD, you have no choice but to tag 4:3, but I've read in this forum or maybe VideoHelp that some DVD players scale 4:3-tagged 720480 such that the inner 704480 fills the 4:3 area
It's not just MPEG, but other formats. Smart players know what 720x480 need for AR/cropping/processing. Cheap/stupid ones do not.

I've almost amused by the conversation. There's not a 100% absolute to this. ATI cards captured natively at something like 711x480 (I forget specifics, but resolution and cards), while others do things like 704x486. Optics of cameras naturally warp AR some, and every processing step from shoot to delivery can incur some AR discrepancy. There are times when I look at "accurate" AR, shake my head, and then proceed to visually correct it. FYI, this is a reason (of many) of why "the camera adds 10 lbs".

Resizing and cropping gets even worse. Lop off pixels, resize to the 4x3, perhaps eyeball it for yet another truer AR resize, then even upscale to a 720p 1x1 AR. I'd doing a project like this today, right now.

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  #13  
11-25-2020, 08:53 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjb2019 View Post
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, because it is demonstrably untrue.

If your concern is that not all formats or players will honor 15:11 DAR, that's a different issue. I agree that it's better to sacrifice some accuracy for compatibility, in the short term.
Again, no such 15:11 DAR in any file system, DAR can either be 4:3 or 16:9 that's the only 2 TV screens man ever made, PAR/SAR can vary from one file to another.
For people who do care about properly viewing their contents with 0% stretch then they have to crop to 704x480, No PAR can get the active video area in a 720x480 into a 4:3 shape, just not possible. Keep in mind that most people don't care about that 2-3% stretch even experienced people tend to just ignore it. As I said I've already demonstrated this, just download the file and see for yourself.

For DVD and DV I agree, 720x480 is 100% active video frame and a 8:9 PAR gets a perfect 4:3 DAR.
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12-05-2020, 04:06 PM
David_MD David_MD is offline
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It's about 15 tapes, but there may be tapes not worth converting, haven't viewed them all.

-- merged --

And lordsmurf...

So from reading all the posts (thank you all!), it seems like the analog to DV conversion when playing Hi8 on the Sony TRV-460 is not all that great compared to other options. Sounds like I can get better color and perhaps resolution by doing it another way.

So it sounds like most of you think (if I'm getting this right) that I can get significantly better capture quality by outputting TRV-460 analog into a used Panasonic DVD Recorder Player DMR-ES10 and that device puts TBC in the signal, and then has some kind of DV output.

Am I right that I would connect my TRV-460 camera into the ES10 and use some digital cable out of the ES10 and connect that to some card in my Win10 laptop? I assume that is a USB input to my laptop.

Or can I go right from the ES10 into my Mac Mini, which already has the firewire input? Or is is that there is no decent dv capture software on the MAC and I should use my PC with a capture card?

It sounds like there are mixed feelings about the Pinnacle 500-USB card.

If I should use my Win10 laptop, then it seems like the best options for my laptop are the Hauppauge ATI 600 USB clone, whatever that is, or Pinnacle USB, NTSC, again, uncertain what model that is, but it's in the marketplace.

Then I need software, but where is that for these two cards for Win 10? I didn't see any website that has software/drivers for ATI CMC and I guess VDub doesn't play well with Win 10.

Is there software that works well for the cards with Win10 and what is it? And does that software generate some kind of DV file I can then use in iMovie?
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12-05-2020, 06:16 PM
mjb2019 mjb2019 is offline
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I'm just responding to this part—
Quote:
So it sounds like most of you think (if I'm getting this right) that I can get significantly better capture quality by outputting TRV-460 analog into a used Panasonic DVD Recorder Player DMR-ES10 and that device puts TBC in the signal, and then has some kind of DV output.

Am I right that I would connect my TRV-460 camera into the ES10 and use some digital cable out of the ES10 and connect that to some card in my Win10 laptop? I assume that is a USB input to my laptop.
If you use the Handycam's digital output (Firewire) then yes, it would go straight into your Mac, no capture card needed. But you would only be getting digital video in the DV format, digitized by the camera, and it will be flawed in the ways previously mentioned.

If you use the Handycam's analog output, which will be composite or S-Video, then you'll need a capture device (yes, USB based, for your Mac Mini or laptop PC). As mentioned, with this setup, unless you can afford a real TBC unit, you'll probably also want a DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 to stabilize the picture. But no, the DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 does not have digital video outputs, just analog. So ideally you will run an S-Video connector from the camera to the ES10/ES15 and another one from there to the capture device. It's OK if one or both are composite, it's just better if they're both S-Video.

Last edited by mjb2019; 12-05-2020 at 06:27 PM.
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  #16  
12-06-2020, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_MD View Post
it seems like the analog to DV conversion when playing Hi8 on the Sony TRV-460 is not all that great compared to other options. Sounds like I can get better color and perhaps resolution by doing it another way.
Correct, for the analog Hi8/Video8 tapes.
For the D8, no gain, but equally no loss. In fact, there are some other benefits to analog capturing those tapes.

Quote:
into a used Panasonic DVD Recorder Player DMR-ES10 and that device puts TBC in the signal
TBC(ish). The ES10/15 is not a TBC. It has line TBC functionality, corrupted to allow anti-copy. And then a standard frame sync (not frame TBC). It can work. There is a fail rate, so watch the dropped frames.

It's better to get an actual TBC. Less hassle. (Buy it, use it, resell it.)

Quote:
and then has some kind of DV output.
No.

Quote:
connect that to some card in my Win10 laptop? I assume that is a USB input to my laptop.
Yes.

Quote:
Or can I go right from the ES10 into my Mac Mini
No.

Quote:
It sounds like there are mixed feelings about the Pinnacle 500-USB card.
Mixed, mostly to the negative side.

Quote:
If I should use my Win10 laptop, then it seems like the best options for my laptop are the Hauppauge ATI 600 USB clone, whatever that is, or Pinnacle USB, NTSC, again, uncertain what model that is, but it's in the marketplace.
It's an option to consider. A main reason that I put hardware in the marketplace is to make this process easy. You can read, and hunt, and hope, and experiment, etc -- or just bypass all of that, I'm your "easy button". I can talk and talk, and write and write (in the forum, as I have for decades), but ultimately it's still all about the hardware. Known-working stuff is needed.

Quote:
Then I need software, but where is that for these two cards for Win 10? I didn't see any website that has software/drivers for ATI CMC and I guess VDub doesn't play well with Win 10.
The official ATO 600 USB was zapped by the latest version of Win10 update. Win10 really sucks for video, that happens to hardware every 6 months. Eventually, I bet nothing will work. I'd not be shocked if more an more systems removed all connections, including USB.

Quote:
Is there software that works well for the cards with Win10 and what is it?
VirtualDub 1.9.x

Quote:
And does that software generate some kind of DV file I can then use in iMovie?
VirtualDub2 reencode the captures (not really a quality hit) to ProRes422. I do this when needed.

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  #17  
12-06-2020, 02:51 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Yes Pinnacle boxes do have problems with Win 10, not all people can get them to work, But once they are working they all give the same files (lossless AVI 4:2:2), Just avoid the Dazzles and the ones with built in MPEG-2 encoder.
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12-28-2020, 07:06 PM
David_MD David_MD is offline
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Since I misunderstood the The ES10/15, remind me, what is the best value in a TBC device at the moment?

So the process would be my Sony TRV460 analog to TBC device, then from the TBC with to Hauppauge ATI 600 USB clone or Pinnacle USB (and hope for the best) while using VirtualDub 1.9.x with WIN 10.

A TBC, does that just TBC the video, or the audio too? If the former, then I guess I run the Sony to S-Video out to TBC for the video and then use the analog audio cables to the Hauppauge ATI 600. Right? Or is there a TBC for the audio too?

If I can get my hands on a WIN 7 machine with the last updates available for that, is the USB hardware or software capture suggestion any different?

And this earlier reply by Lordsmurf, I'm confused:
VirtualDub2 reencode the captures (not really a quality hit) to ProRes422. I do this when needed.

Am I supposed to first use 1.9x, then VirtualDub2? What does "not really a quality hit" mean?

Thank you all!
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12-28-2020, 07:33 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Most TBC boxes have audio in and out but don't have any effect on the audio, the 1/30 sec audio advance would not affect the sound much if you would bypass the TBC and run the audio straight to the capture card, But it is preferred to connect it to the TBC.

A frame TBC fixes the frame timing, it has no effect on the picture quality other than fixing the stabilization of it, If you got frame rolling, frame drop (black or blue screen flashes), half screen frame and similar artifacts you know that a TBC is a must.
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  #20  
12-28-2020, 11:33 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Yes Pinnacle boxes do have problems with Win 10, not all people can get them to work, But once they are working they all give the same files (lossless AVI 4:2:2),
While I sometimes refer to products in shorthand (ATI, Pinnacles), remember that each is just a brand with multiple products. When I refer to brands in shorthand, I have several specific models in mind. Sometimes also subversions of those models. Pinnacles I use, and suggest, and sometimes sell in the marketplace, thus far have proven resilient to infamous Win10 capture-killer updates. ATIs have no held up as well, though ironically clones using other drivers have (Hauppauge, generic eMPIA).

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_MD View Post
Since I misunderstood the The ES10/15, remind me, what is the best value in a TBC device at the moment?
price != value

The lowest price on TBCs is usually flawed junk on eBay -- black AVT-8710s and clones, rackmounts, damaged TBC-1000s (including units that are "working" and "tested"; it's just BS). The price is actually far too high for what it is.

When only referring to quality TBCs, both good models and in properly functioning condition, the best value on TBCs depends on models, and if PAL or NTSC. The best values are usually PAL-only or NTSC-only units, but those are more scarce than PAL+NTSC units. The composite-only units are also priced low compared to TBCs with svideo.

For some more understanding of TBC pricing: I have several refurb'd units currently in the marketplace, and what I often paid for a still-flawed (pre-refurb) unit was still over $1k. For example, one of the TBC-1000s that I recently repaired took about $200 in parts, and took many hours spread over 2 months. If somebody like me doesn't fix the TBCs, we're going to have a lot less TBCs in the future, which will only drive up prices.

Quote:
So the process would be my Sony TRV460 analog to TBC device, then from the TBC with to Hauppauge ATI 600 USB clone or Pinnacle USB (and hope for the best) while using VirtualDub 1.9.x with WIN 10.
Yes. VCR > TBC > capture card

Quote:
A TBC, does that just TBC the video, or the audio too?
Or is there a TBC for the audio too?
Time base correction is a video aspect, not audio. When a unit has audio in/out, it's just passed for convenience or through a splitter (distro amp, like VP299 inside TBC-1000). Always bypass audio inputs, as it will just increase the SNR (adds noise), VCR > capture card, unless splitting required.

Quote:
If I can get my hands on a WIN 7 machine with the last updates available for that, is the USB hardware or software capture suggestion any different?
VirtualDub, on all Windows OS versions.
In some rare cases, VirtualDub2. Each VirtualDub version actually acts a bit different, with the current/newest '2' being very different. 1.9.x is almost always the best, with some exceptions (that are too lengthy to discuss in a general way).

Quote:
And this earlier reply by Lordsmurf, I'm confused:
VirtualDub2 reencode the captures (not really a quality hit) to ProRes422. I do this when needed.
Am I supposed to first use 1.9x, then VirtualDub2? What does "not really a quality hit" mean?
Thank you all!
You cannot capture to ProRes422. You capture to lossless AVI, either Huffyuv (best) or Lagarith (riskier at dropping frames), using VirtualDub (original, not forked VD2). Reencode the capture from lossless AVI to ProRes422, using VirtualDub2. That reencode will not incur loss if ProRes422 HQ at the higher settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Most TBC boxes have audio in and out but don't have any effect on the audio, the 1/30 sec audio advance would not affect the sound much if you would bypass the TBC and run the audio straight to the capture card, But it is preferred to connect it to the TBC.
I've tested this, and the TBC audio doesn't really delay either. Testing results have been inconsistent (over, at, under). It's mostly just passed. This is probably because the clock speed change of 1/30 sec is within a standard margin of error.

Quote:
A frame TBC fixes the frame timing, it has no effect on the picture quality other than fixing the stabilization of it,
To get technical:
- Line TBC corrects the image, mostly
- Frame TBC corrects the signal, mostly

As a byproduct, line TBC does some minor signal corrections. And frame does minor image corrections. Although both are "TBCs", separate concepts, different approaches to correction, different goals of corrections. Yet slight overlap, in minor ways.

You need both.

Quote:
If you got frame rolling, frame drop (black or blue screen flashes), half screen frame and similar artifacts you know that a TBC is a must.
Yep, that and many more errors. Literally enough possible errors exist to have a separate glossary just for what TBCs can correct.

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