RetroTINK 4K test for analog capture?

[MarioGuy789]

Whew, so it’s been a minute since I last posted on the forums here, bunch of life nonsense plus a general slump lasting well over a year ensnared me, but I’m finally ready to get back at this capture business with a potentially interesting topic.

I bought a complete workflow from LordSmurf a long time ago and am still sitting on it really.

Until today!

Now, while I intend to use the workflow for my overall tape transfer project, I was finally given the kick in the pants I needed thanks to a recent purchase of Mike Chi’s latest iteration of his RetroTINK line, the 4K. In a recent blog post from RetroRGB, it was reported that a firmware update had been pushed to the device that claims to be helpful with VHS capturing. Keyword: CLAIMS.

Since this device is a scaler intended for video game consoles and the like, it is no substitute for a dedicated VCR and TBC setup paired with VirtualDub, but I was interested in seeing how well it could perform just by itself based on what RetroRGB reported here: https://www.retrorgb.com/retrotink-4...-firmware.html

I will share my results of the comparisons, as I intend to do plenty of capturing of my game consoles for my YouTube Channel in any case. I’ll be sure to test the profile that’s in the blog post primarily but I’ll also mess around and see what else I can do.

I’ll get back to this presently, still recovering from a cold and am not exerting myself too much.

[thestarswitcher]

I bought a TI4K myself to experiment with VHS capture features too. It's absolutely with doing a test with an array of units and players, happy to contribute in any way I can.

My goal right now is finding a capture card that will either take HDMI, or HDMI->SDI at 480i/576i natively at full color spectrum!

[NJRoadfan]

Does the RetroTINK 4K support 480i/576i output yet? I know the RT5X eventually got that mode, but the 4K's initial firmware didn't come with it, since SD output isn't a targeted application for the product. Ideally you'd would want a device to simply digitize the signal and pass it direct to the digital output without upscaling, filtering, or colorspace conversion.

Just about every HDMI capture card will accept 480i/576i. You don't want RGB output for analog capture if that is what you mean by "full color spectrum". You want 4:2:2 YUV, which is the native color space of the video.

[thestarswitcher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

Does the RetroTINK 4K support 480i/576i output yet?

That I'm not sure, but I reckon the firmware will be updated in due time. The TBC capabilities look promising and could only really evolve from here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

Ideally you'd would want a device to simply digitize the signal and pass it direct to the digital output without upscaling, filtering, or colorspace conversion.

Bingo

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

You want 4:2:2 YUV, which is the native color space of the video.

Yup! Do most HDMI cards support that on an SD tier?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thestarswitcher

The TBC capabilities look promising and could only really evolve from here.

Remember, "TBC" is a wide term. What exists there is not a TBC by our analog videotape ingest definition.

[thestarswitcher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

What exists there is not a TBC by our analog videotape ingest definition.

How do you know unless there's testing involved? The VHS-standard TBC units from 20 years ago are failing at a rapid rate; it wouldn't be smart to reach that conclusion unless it's been proven in a series of tests.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thestarswitcher

That I'm not sure, but I reckon the firmware will be updated in due time. The TBC capabilities look promising and could only really evolve from here.

Bingo

Yup! Do most HDMI cards support that on an SD tier?

Yeah 4:2:2 is basically the default cards support if they support uncompressed capture (which not all cards do). A lot of these cheapest generic HDMI capture dongles don't support 480i/576i though and only progressive scan mode in SD resolution. (It was added in a slightly hacky way to the HDMI protocol or something afiak so not all HDMI ICs support it)

The 4k didn't handle signal loss on a VHS tape and had some bending at the top when retroRGB tested one on tapes a little back (the stream got nuked for copyright so can't link it) so will be interesting to see the changes, though you want 480i/576i output ideally ofc.

[thestarswitcher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The 4k didn't handle signal loss on a VHS tape and had some bending at the top when retroRGB tested one on tapes a little back

This is an interesting take; if it's showing the bending at the top, that means that's down to error on the line level- VCR's internal TBC needs to be on.
How does it behave when the signal itself is dropping in and out?

[aramkolt]

I think I saw the VHS capture series with the RT5X and I don't think the VCRs used were ones that had a line TBC and they may not have even been using S-Video. Sounds like from the retroRGB post that they just recommend using it for composite at this point.

I also kind of wonder where they are getting those snell and Wilcox test patterns - I know they have that pattern on the Digital Video Essentials DVD, but not sure that's the purest form of a signal generator per se in terms of testing 3D comb filters?

[NJRoadfan]

Someone over on videohelp posted a VOB with a whole bunch of test images, including the Snell & Wilcox moving test cards. If you are using a DVD player as an output device, it is pretty good for testing comb filters on capture devices.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thestarswitcher

How do you know unless there's testing involved? The VHS-standard TBC units from 20 years ago are failing at a rapid rate; it wouldn't be smart to reach that conclusion unless it's been proven in a series of tests.

It's in the known specs. It's also often discussed with lots of weasel words, and technobabble like "triple buffering". At least once, any official claims were backpeddled. Not only has this been discussed multiple times in the past year, but sadly mocked as ridiculous on some sites. So even sarcastic trolls called BS on it. The excuse term "good enough" is often used by defenders in many discussions, as the captured VHS is essentially butchered. Some have even compared it to ClearClicks and Easycaps overall, by the time you get to the final product.

This is true of both 5X and 4K.

Videotapes and not video games, even if both have "video" in the name. Any video is not any video.

So it's not just me.

[latreche34]

Use the right tool for the right job, Retrotink-4k is a display upscaler and should be used as such. There were a lot of expensive high quality HDMI HD upscalers for VCRs and DVD players back in the day with digital processing (memory buffer) ranging from $200-$2000 and they did a very good job at upscaling from a cheap VCR into Plasma and LCD HD panels but they were never intended for capturing analog tapes, Retrotink is no different.

[MarioGuy789]

Didn’t expect to get so much traction in a short time. Currently at work and haven’t had the opportunity to get down to the real meat of testing, will be able to tomorrow, however.

Should reiterate that I know the RT isn’t the tool for this job and this is just a brief experiment mostly for giggles while I do the actual transfers with the workflow. I also may be an enthusiast but I’m still not well-versed on all the technical specifics, so consider this a layman’s approach by every standard. I’m open to any suggestions about what to try with the RT if supported, etc.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Use the right tool for the right job,

This cannot be repeated enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarioGuy789

this is just a brief experiment mostly for giggles

It's really good to see you again. (Your username didn't even register when I first saw the thread. It's definitely been a minute.) It's been a rough road for some of us these past few years. Time heals, let's us re-find our joy, and our giggles.