RetroTink-5X PRO TBC mode any good?

[sirdu]

I use the RetroTink-5X PRO for my retro games, essentially to fix up a crappy signal from, say, a PS2 or SNES, to make it more tolerable for my 4K TV. For example, a PS1 game displaying in 240p could incorrectly display at 480i with composite directly to an HDTV and will look really blurry and dull as a result due to multiple factors including most TVs internal upscalers' inability to properly accommodate older video games, however it looks absolutely beautiful in Line 5X mode when using the proper video output cables, such as SCART, or component if using a PS2. It looks almost like playing on an emulator.

A couple months back the team behind the device released a TBC mode in the form of a software update, specifically for more unstable analog video sources like VHS.

• "TBC mode added (for all Gen Lock capable units). TBC is similar to Gen Lock but with additional filtering intended for use with unstable sources like VHS."

How good (or not so good) is this compared to a DataVideo TBC-1000 or some other standard top-of-the-line TBC? This particular device has S-Video, SCART, RCA Component, and Composite inputs and an HDMI output, however it's bread-and-butter is really for retro game systems which tend to have a more stable analog output compared to, say, VHS or Video8. I doubt it would be on par with hardware TBCs that are specifically made for more unstable sources, especially since this mode was released as a firmware update. I'm sure it would be maybe be a little more competent than just straight up capturing VHS without any sort of time base correction at all, although I am a little wary of using an HDMI capture card to perform such a task, since RetroTink 5X has multiple analog inputs but only a digital HDMI output.

What do people smarter than me on this topic think of this whole thing? Does this new TBC mode as a firmware update for the 5X really make this thing a more capable VHS capturing device or no?

[thestarswitcher]

I have a 5x, I remember testing VHS capture on it some time ago- I don't recall it being too good.
THAT BEING SAID, I don't have a suitable HDMI capture card to give it an authentic test with this software update. I'd love to give it a fair shot if I can source a card for cheap..

[lordsmurf]

This card is not good for videotapes. It's made for video game consoles, and works well for it. The issues with videotapes, and the issues with video games, are very different.

It's like trying to haul lumber with a Ford Mustang. Both are vehicles, right?
Silly, yes? Very different vehicles, for different purposes.

A genlock is not a TBC.

Calling anything in that card a "TBC" is really just a wild stretch. By some of these loose definitions of "TBC", I think my toaster has one as well.

[aramkolt]

Ah yes, the TBC feature was something I'd requested. Essentially what it does (I believe) is it puts all of the processing power towards storing several frames/fields in a buffer and then releasing them smoothly which is what a TBC would do. I do not know how it handles line or long "whole field" dropouts though.

My hope was that I'd see more experienced capture-folk give it a try and report more objectively what the pros and cons are, but I haven't specifically seen any detailed reviews with capture samples.

I'm not clear as to what all the settings need to be to use the TBC feature appropriately, but I believe you also have to enable interlaced output (which is definitely not the default) and then use a capture card that is capable of 480i capture via HDMI. Usually the retrotink will only output progressive images which are line doubled without enabling those features.

By default, the retrotink does bob-deinterlacing (which is 59.94fps), which is what you'd eventually do in software anyway if you wanted to play it back on modern computing hardware/phones most of the time anyway. If you want the "lossless" capture, you'd want to go the 480i route though. No idea how color accuracy or compression works with the retrotink though so would be good to see some side by side comparisons.

There's a somewhat comical comparison of some oddball capture cards, though that's just with the older line doubling retotink2x which can't handle timebase errors at all since it wasn't made for it, but seems the 5X doesn't mind it since I've seen a few VHS captures with it, so results will definitely be better on that you'd think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCK-6rVp3m0

I'd say if you already have the retrotink, give the TBC feature a go and post about your results. I just haven't had the time to play around with mine much, though I plan to play around with it more this winter when there's less to do.

[latreche34]

That video you linked was so funny that I had to drop a comment there, He has a nice British sense of humor. That video summarized what we've been saying for years but no one is been listening.

[aramkolt]

Yeah, I really don't get how his videos haven't garnered more views and subscribers - he's super hilarious, videos have high production value, and very informative.

[NJRoadfan]

I am debating purchasing a 5X Pro now that a 480i output mode has finally been added. I have the original 2X, and its VHS capture ability is terrible unless you put a TBC in the signal path. I've had other issues with its composite signal being fussy about video from vintage computers, which is odd given its target application!

Note that Bob from RetroRGB has been testing various VHS capture methods on a serious of livestreams. He covered a wide range of capture options including the RetroTINK 5X, RF VHSDecode, using a DVD combo, and for kicks, a cheapo $5 USB capture device: https://www.youtube.com/@RetroRGB/streams

For those wondering, the recommended TBCs here aren't really anything special inside. The Cypress made AVT-8710 units all use a bog standard Philips/NXP SAA7114 series digitizer and the matching SAA7129 DAC to convert back to analog. There is some frame buffer RAM, and an embedded controller to run the proc-amp and controls.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

For those wondering, the recommended TBCs here aren't really anything special inside. The Cypress made AVT-8710 units all use a bog standard Philips/NXP SAA7114 series digitizer and the matching SAA7129 DAC to convert back to analog. There is some frame buffer RAM, and an embedded controller to run the proc-amp and controls.

Well, sort of, but that descrption overlooks a few chips, as wel as the on-chip software. And that is the main case as well: none of the capture cards have all of the needed chips to power a actual frame TBC (and sometimes not even line TBC).

[latreche34]

For $325 I think it's worth waiting for the Singmai device, I would prefer SD SDI than HDMI, There is nothing to configure in SD SDI, but for HDMI you have to configure the HDMI-USB device to output 480i interlaced, and from the YT video link above it crops the picture a bit, SDI devices keep the frame intact full 720 horizontally, full 486 vertically for NTSC and full 576 vertically for PAL/SECAM.
SD SDI is well defined under the standard SMPTE 259M-C, C for tape based formats. There is nothing to configure, But HDMI has very loose parameters and can go wrong in most cases.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

For $325 I think it's worth waiting for the Singmai device, I would prefer SD SDI than HDMI, There is nothing to configure in SD SDI, but for HDMI you have to configure the HDMI-USB device to output 480i interlaced, and from the YT video link above it crops the picture a bit, SDI devices keep the frame intact full 720 horizontally, full 486 vertically for NTSC and full 576 vertically for PAL/SECAM.
SD SDI is well well defined under the standard SMPTE 259M-C, There is nothing to configure, But HDMI has very loose parameters and can go wrong in most cases.

I have to agree. HDMI output can be a mess, and often is.

With all of the HDMI and SDI methods, what I dislike is over reliance on Blackmagic gear, as all of it sucks (and has too many versions, and all discontinues too quickly). And then the software problems.

Not that I'm overly impressed by either option.

[latreche34]

Black Magic sucks for analog, but for SDI ingest they are perfect, In fact, they are the best, I've tried Magewell and they suck.

I don't think Black Magic are in the position of omitting standards, Those are set and done in the chips and it makes more effort for the design engineers to omit a standard from the chip rather than just leave it there as it won't hurt nothing. Kind of like an operating system, we all hate Microsoft but if you have an old hard drive, an optical drive or a floppy drive it still works under the current operating system, Not that Microsoft wanted to support it but they are just too lazy to change things around. Sure one day all this will become obsolete but it may take decades and by then it will be little to no VCR's still working anyway.

[antonio.casoria]

The RetroTink-5X PRO is primarily designed for enhancing the video output from retro game systems for modern HDTVs. It's not specifically tailored for VHS or other analog video sources, so the addition of a TBC (Time Base Corrector) mode via a firmware update is a notable feature extension, but it may not be on par with dedicated TBC hardware designed for more unstable analog sources like VHS.

[aramkolt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

For $325 I think it's worth waiting for the Singmai device, I would prefer SD SDI than HDMI, There is nothing to configure in SD SDI, but for HDMI you have to configure the HDMI-USB device to output 480i interlaced, and from the YT video link above it crops the picture a bit, SDI devices keep the frame intact full 720 horizontally, full 486 vertically for NTSC and full 576 vertically for PAL/SECAM.
SD SDI is well defined under the standard SMPTE 259M-C, C for tape based formats. There is nothing to configure, But HDMI has very loose parameters and can go wrong in most cases.

Are you referring to the SM03? Do they have a timeline on availability or has anyone tested a prototype? Sounds like from a few posts that they had a few working units, but others had manufacturing issues and chip shortages?

[latreche34]

Yes, No timeline yet.

[kitty666cats]

Speaking of that RetroRGB Bob guy, in the past I've seen him sing high praise of certain DataPath capture cards, as they capture old game consoles with full 4:4:4 RGB chroma resolution, and are able to capture/process the game console output of '240p' (such a loose term, as very few game consoles output an actual 320x240p signal).

Are there any DataPath cards that implement Y/C inputs? If so, I am curious if anyone here (maybe you, LordSmurf?) had ever tested one of these things. They seem to be moreso geared for professional video production/broadcast use, so I'd assume not many folks here have nabbed one to try out for video tape digitization.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitty666cats

They seem to be moreso geared for professional video production/broadcast use, so I'd assume not many folks here have nabbed one to try out for video tape digitization.

It has nothing to do with "professional"-- it's neither professional nor non-professional. It's just a tool, to be wielded by the right person, in the right scenario.

DataPath makes products for certain niche sectors (industrial/commercial display, security, medical imaging, etc), and consumer SD formats is not at all that niche. Video isn't video.

At
- 4:2:2
- YUY2 (YUV, YPrPb)
- 720x480/576 -- though 352x also exceds most consumer analog SD sources
- 8-bit -- noting that essentially all consumer analog SD source are like 6-bit dithered

... you're already exceeding what exists. 4:4:4 10-bit does absolutely nothing for you, while HD/4K resolution actually makes matters worse.

Video game capture methods really do not apply whatsoever to videotapes. As different as apples and orangutans.

The old trope (which has seen resurgence in recent years) of "you have to try it to know" is also silly, the specs don't match. It's like trying to install Final Cut Pro on Windows, it doesn't work at all.

[NJRoadfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitty666cats

Are there any DataPath cards that implement Y/C inputs? If so, I am curious if anyone here (maybe you, LordSmurf?) had ever tested one of these things. They seem to be moreso geared for professional video production/broadcast use, so I'd assume not many folks here have nabbed one to try out for video tape digitization.

The Datapath VisionRGB-E1S that is frequently recommend and is commonly found for cheap 2nd had doesn't support composite or S-Video capture. Only RGB and DVI. I have an Epiphan DVI2PCIe which does support it, but I need to make a breakout cable with the required jacks since the card didn't come with them. The Epiphan card uses a TI TVP5150 for analog video capture which has been well regarded in other applications.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

The Epiphan card uses a TI TVP5150 for analog video capture which has been well regarded in other applications.

What advantages does it have, if any, over the ATI 600 USB?

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitty666cats

Are there any DataPath cards that implement Y/C inputs? If so, I am curious if anyone here (maybe you, LordSmurf?) had ever tested one of these things. .

The datapath device RetroRGB bob was using in the last VCR capture stream did, and it also seemed to handle VCR input quite well compared to the other devices second only to the DMR-ES10 of the devices checked but apparently it's pretty a very rare and hard to get and also did not have any audio. It's a Datapath Vision SD4+1 and the only one on ebay is listed for $700.00 so probably not worth the gamble.

The VisionSD8 also has S-Video but the prices on that are even more extreme.

[NJRoadfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

What advantages does it have, if any, over the ATI 600 USB?

Native DirectShow drivers for Windows 7/8/10/11. It also offers both balanced and unbalanced audio inputs as well.