Quantcast Output/capture multiple VHS audio tracks simultaneously? - digitalFAQ Forum
Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Capture, Record, Transfer

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
01-13-2012, 09:19 AM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Are either of the following possible (my guess is "no"):

1) Output both the Hi-Fi and linear audio tracks simultaneously from a VCR. None of my units can do this (JVC, Panny, etc.). I could be wrong, but I believe a VCR can only read one track at a time for technical reasons. But has anyone ever heard of a deck that can do this?

2) Let's say there IS a magical VCR that outputs both linear and Hi-Fi simultaneously. Is there a CAPTURE program (and an A-D converter) that can accept both tracks simultaneously? (My check of Final Cut Pro, at least, seems to confirm "no.")

My guess is that if you want both the linear and Hi-Fi audio, they have to be captured on two separate runs from the VCR, and then matched up as two separate stereo pairs on a timeline. (At least you CAN output a Quicktime MOV file that contains both pairs separately--I've already tried that.)

Am I correct in my assumptions above? I am about to tell a client that his project will cost twice as much if he wants both audio tracks for all his files, and I don't want him to come back at me and say my equipment is deficient because I can't output both tracks at the same time. I'm 95% sure that I'm correct, but I could use confirmation. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
01-13-2012, 10:32 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,466
Thanked 1,390 Times in 1,222 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by moxiecat View Post
1) Output both the Hi-Fi and linear audio tracks simultaneously from a VCR. None of my units can do this (JVC,
Yes. Almost all of the JVC S-VHS VCRs can. Use the "Mix" mode. Of course, that means you're merging the linear and HiFi together, which probably isn't what you're really wanting. The VCR only has one audio RCA L/R output (ignoring coax), so only a single signal can be output: linear (mono) or HiFi (stereo/mono) or HiFi+linear smushed together.

There's no way to have it play linear to one output, and HiFi to another, because there's only one output. Of the higher-end editing/dubbing decks I've come across -- mostly Panasonic, Sony and Mitsubishi decks -- I don't readily recall one that had this kind of feature. (And most of those ancient decks sucked anyway, so it would overall look better captured twice from a higher quality VCR.)

Quote:
2) Let's say there IS a magical VCR that outputs both linear and Hi-Fi simultaneously. Is there a CAPTURE program (and an A-D converter) that can accept both tracks simultaneously? (My check of Final Cut Pro, at least, seems to confirm "no.")
No, not as such. You'd need to cheat, and use an appliance that can record 4-channel or 6-channel audio. There may be some computer-based cards capable of this, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. And then I'm also not aware of software that can do it, so it would have to be proprietary software made for the card.

Then you'd have to split the channels in an audio editor. And channel splitting is one of the slowest audio editing tasks. Still quicker than capturing twice, but not what I'd call a "fast" task.

There's also no promise that the audio syncs perfectly, either. There may be several ms of drift between the streams, giving you an echo effect. That happens quite often when using the mix mode on the JVC VCRs. You'll get this hollow tunnel type sound.

Quote:
My guess is that if you want both the linear and Hi-Fi audio, they have to be captured on two separate runs from the VCR, and then matched up as two separate stereo pairs on a timeline. (At least you CAN output a Quicktime MOV file that contains both pairs separately--I've already tried that.)
Yep.

I do it further along in the workflow, if possible, in the MPEG-2 domain (assuming the workflow is inclusive of MPEG-2 output). Then I can use Womble MPEG Video Wizard DVD, and it's a ton faster than editing from AVI or Quicktime twice. I've done it in both Adobe Premiere Pro (Windows) and Final Cut Pro (OS X and OS9) in the past. And you'll still have to address the audio drift, regardless of editor. The drift is generally (luckily) constant drift and not variable. I have had two tapes in the past decade where drift was asynchronous, so tedious to edit in this manner.

Quote:
and I don't want him to come back at me and say my equipment is deficient because I can't output both tracks at the same time.
It sounds like this person is already being a problem.

If you ever need assistance explaining the technical in English, you know where to find me.

One of my pet peeves is people who, with zero knowledge on the subject, think that something should happen or function in a certain way. And it's not based on science or experience, either -- it's just random asinine ideas. "Well, I don't think... blah blah blah..." is something that gets my dander up, and I won't stand for it. Video is an extremely complex subject, and even having done it for about two decades now, it still often feels like I'm only holding a Big Gulp cup worth of knowledge scooped out of a lake. I certainly don't need to be talked down to by a know-it-all who can't even fill a thimble. I feel your pain, and I'll help when I can.

Also, I have a question:

What's the purpose of this, anyway? HiFi tracks can get fuzz and crackles in the audio, while the linear track is generally free of those artifacts. So you can take the best bits from both tracks, and fix as needed. Is that what you're doing? If so, Sound Forge 9 and 10 have a pretty decent restoration filter for removing crackles, and the new digitalFAQ.com Sound Forge filter presets pack from last month has a couple of presets.

Or was this some fancy edited tape, where the linear and HiFi were A/B audio tracks?

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
01-13-2012, 11:30 AM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanks for the terrific explanation! I knew I could count on you. :-) I actually don't have the project yet. It is almost certainly coming, though--he just had some questions first.

What's the purpose of this? He writes: "On occasion, my tapes will have split tracks (different audio sources on each of the tracks)....I assume you do not mix audio tracks, ie: what's on track 1 on the tape will remain distinct from track 2 when transferred to file." That is all I know at this point.

Most of his tapes are VHS, so I assumed that he meant Hi-Fi and linear. Could it be something else? I have come across tapes that have different Hi-Fi and linear tracks--mostly wedding ones, where the original camera sound is Hi-Fi but the videographer dubbed in copyrighted music during certain sections of the linear track. That's my closest guess as to what he means.

Yeah--I didn't mean the Mix feature.

The JVC SR-W5U has multiple audio outs, but I can't see that there is a setting that sends linear sound out one and Hi-Fi out the other. I assumed it was just to hook up a second deck so you could output to two sources at once. (And even so--the capture device/software would have to have two audio ins, which don't seem to be a possibility anyway.)

Any further thoughts?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
01-13-2012, 01:46 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,030
Thanked 317 Times in 259 Posts
The Panasonic AG-1980 has independent linear audio I/O jacks, only linear audio will come out of it and nevers mixes with the Hi-Fi track (the linear audio track can also be used for timecode). Hi-Fi will come out of the L+R jacks by default. All pro VHS VTRs have individual audio track I/O too, along with dual linear audio track capability.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
01-13-2012, 02:01 PM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
OK, I do see that on the back of the AG-1980. That is good to know--thank you. (So the linear out is just that one dark plug to the left of the red/white ones?)

But even if you utilized that--you still could only capture L+R at one time, right? How would you capture both the linear and the Hi-Fi at the same time? All of the A-D converters I have worked with have just L+R in, and like LordSmurf says, you'd need a special converter AND software (which even he doesn't know of).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
01-13-2012, 02:43 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,030
Thanked 317 Times in 259 Posts
A soundcard that can handle more then one set of inputs would work for the hardware. Software is tricky, you would have to likely resort to capturing audio to a seperate mutli-track recorder application if video capturing apps out there don't do it (most modern container formats support more then 2 audio tracks, don't know if AVI does).
Reply With Quote
  #7  
01-13-2012, 03:17 PM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Well, we're actually going to Quicktime MOV here (using a Mac), not AVI. I have already confirmed that a Quicktime file can hold 2 separate audio tracks. But the problem is outputting the tracks simultaneously from the VCR, and then capturing them simultaneously via converter and software--to avoid running the same tape more than once.

Basically, I needed to know a) if such a thing can be done, and b) what hardware and software exists to do it. I've been checking around, and this is not so easy to find.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
01-13-2012, 11:20 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,030
Thanked 317 Times in 259 Posts
You need a multi-channel audio capture device. Something like this should work: http://www.alesis.com/io4

In your video capture software, specify the USB capture source as your audio source. Here are the instructions for Final Cut Pro 7 as an example: http://documentation.apple.com/en/fi...3%26tasks=true

You can "bond" 2 inputs into one stereo track for the Hi-Fi audio if needed.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
01-26-2012, 06:23 PM
jmac698 jmac698 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 387
Thanked 69 Times in 52 Posts
Personally, I would take his statement as meaning different audio on left/right channels, it seems to be rare that someone would either have the equipment or motivation to put different audio on linear/hifi tracks.

This should be no problem, http://www.howtogeek.com/61037/how-t...imultaneously/.

Anyhow, just grab a cheap soundblaster x-fi usb and now you have two inputs.
Another possibility is to find some device that converts to S/P DIF, so you can use that as a 2nd input to one soundcard.

I've recorded fully digital audio/video through firewire while at the same time, recorded the same fully analog a/v through a capture card. So you could split your video, and record one copy through a dvd recorder or firewire through a camcorder or external capture card, and another analog copy through a capture card but with the linear audio. You would have to line up video to line up the audio.

As for simultaneous linear/hifi, pro decks usually have it.

Just go through all the equipment you have and all the possibilities, to find multiple inputs and outputs.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
01-30-2012, 01:43 PM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanks for the help.

I now have one of these tapes here to try out. You're right: the guy got back to me and said that there is no Hi-Fi, but rather different audio on the left and right linear tracks.

I tested out his tape using a Panasonic AG-1980, and I cannot see that there is different audio. When I play back the tape, the audio indicator on the VCR's front panel shows the left and right channels going up and down at the same time. There is no indication that the left linear channel has different audio from the right.

I can capture the two channels as mono (a1) and mono (a2) in Final Cut Pro (as opposed to a stereo pair), but again, the audio sounds the same on both channels.

So I'm guessing the issue lies back with the VCR itself. Is the AG-1980 incapable of processing different left and right linear channels simultaneously? I'm willing to try out a different VCR but I don't even know what I'm looking for--especially since the AG-1980 is not exactly consumer grade.

Anyone have any ideas? Is there a specific model I should look at for this?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
01-30-2012, 01:54 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,030
Thanked 317 Times in 259 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by moxiecat View Post
Thanks for the help.

I now have one of these tapes here to try out. You're right: the guy got back to me and said that there is no Hi-Fi, but rather different audio on the left and right linear tracks.

Anyone have any ideas? Is there a specific model I should look at for this?
The AG-1980 doesn't offer linear stereo playback. You are going to have to pick up a pro deck. The best from Panasonic was the AG-DS850/840 and AG-DS555/545 (the lower numbered models are playback only). Both output audio via XLR jacks. Just keep in mind that these decks usually need work if picking one off of ebay.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
01-30-2012, 02:51 PM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Argh, it figures...always more equipment needed! :-)

Thanks so much for the model recommendations, though.

Can I use an adapter to convert the XLR jacks to regular composite red and white plugs so I can use my regular A-D converter? (I'm assuming that such an adapter exists.) Or will that impact the sound splitting somehow? (As you can tell, professional audio connections are not exactly my forte. Thanks again.

Last edited by moxiecat; 01-30-2012 at 03:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
01-30-2012, 08:25 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,030
Thanked 317 Times in 259 Posts
Yes adapters exist, but not without caveats. It might be best to pick up a cheap mixer with XLR inputs and run it that way (plus you get the bonus of EQ and volume control).

What source are these tapes from? The reason I ask is linear stereo saw brief consumer use in VHS VCRs from 1984 to 1986 or so. If the tapes are recorded in LP or EP, a pro deck will not play them back. Tracking down an old linear stereo unit is a bit of a pain, and they don't feature any fancy TBCs or video noise reduction. If these tapes were from a studio, you should be fine otherwise as they all should be SP. Another lesser known thing about dual linear tracks is that they are encoded with Dolby noise reduction which studio VCRs will properly equalize on output.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
01-31-2012, 07:23 AM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
From what I understand, the tapes were recorded while the person was a college student, so the source seems to be equipment that was in this college's media studio. The tape I have is SP. I'm guessing the rest are likely SP as well.

Can you recommend a cheap mixer with XLR inputs? Would that then connect to my Canopus converter (in order to get the audio/video into the Mac)?

Sorry for all the questions. This is just getting way more complicated than I thought it would be!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
01-31-2012, 09:22 AM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Would something like this work?:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MobilePre.html

It has two XLR inputs, and on the back of the Panasonic AG-DS545, there are two XLR outputs marked "Norm/HiFi." I'm guessing that would get both separate channels out of the VCR at least.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the USB output on this unit, because my A-D converter is only Firewire. And the Firewire versions of this product are much more expensive.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
01-31-2012, 10:15 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,030
Thanked 317 Times in 259 Posts
Don't worry about the capture device being USB, you can change the audio recording source in your video capture application. The Normal/Hi-Fi output should be the linear tracks. If the tape does have a Hi-Fi track, there should be a switch on the VTR to force linear track output.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
01-31-2012, 10:36 AM
moxiecat moxiecat is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
OK, so let me just get this straight.

1) I run the VCR's XLR outputs into the USB mixer (let's say the one I linked). Then connect that by USB to my Mac.

2) I output the S-video from the VCR to the Canopus, and connect that by Firewire to the Mac.

3) In FCP (or maybe the Mac's sound preferences panel), I make sure the audio that is coming in is via USB.

4) Then hopefully FCP captures the video from the Firewire and the audio from the USB simultaneously.

Is this the general plan? I guess I was mainly worried that the audio and video would get out of sync during capture, given that they are coming from separate sources via different input types. Maybe that's not a concern.

Thanks again for your help.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My Other High-End VCR, the MITSUBISHI HS-U70 (with audio output clipping problem) Tasuke Videography: Cameras, TVs and Players 0 05-13-2011 01:56 PM
Why the JVC BR-S378U won't play mono audio tracks? jbd5010 Capture, Record, Transfer 5 04-07-2011 07:36 AM
Does the AC3 and/or DVD Video standard support mono audio tracks? NJRoadfan Encode, Convert for discs 4 12-12-2010 11:07 PM
Audio capture question stoogedog Encode, Convert for streaming 1 01-29-2007 06:50 AM
Splitting across multiple DVDís fidel1962 Copy DVDs, Duplicate, Replicate 1 07-18-2005 05:31 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:08 PM