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  #1  
03-24-2017, 07:01 AM
blackandtan blackandtan is offline
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I have found a demo on you tube comparing results passing a tape through a Sony RDR-HDX870 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMA5aH_olAQ as a time base corrector and was wondering if the other Sony models in this range work in the same way? I have found a Sony RDR-HDX 770 for sale locally and need to know it this would do the same job.

Sony have an online manual for the 770,870,970 and 1070, it does not explain any differences between the models other than the size of the hard drive and programming tv programs etc so does that mean that any of them could be used as a time base corrector?

I have already bought a Canopus and have had a go at transferring some old VHS tape to dvd via my PC. The results have been OK so far.

I have also bought a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD recorder which I have not yet received. Basically I am dabbling and trying things out. What do you think ?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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  #2  
03-24-2017, 12:55 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Unless you're swimming in money, why not wait for the DMR-ES15 before buying another piece of equipment?
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  #3  
03-24-2017, 03:05 PM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
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check here (panasonic dmr-e50) link broken
to see the effect of a line tbc [ mouse over the picture to compare]

vertical lines are more straight (note: it's a retail vhs tape)
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  #4  
03-24-2017, 09:32 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Many DVD recorders other than the Panasonic ES10 or ES15 can be used for line-tbc pass thru. However none of them compare in correction strength to either of those two machines, and some DVD recorders used as pass-thru are little better than no tbc at all. Many tech forum threads have explored the issue and have come up with only a very few high quality recommendations, none of which include a SONY product. Most DVD recorders have no pass-thru effect at all. Your mileage might differ. It's your time and your money.
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  #5  
02-11-2018, 08:14 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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@OP:

Just to add, if not using a Panasonic DRM-ES10 or ES15, don't bother with this. This was a quirky fluke feature, not something that's present in all DVD recorders.

Yes, some recorders have some degree of framesync as well, but most are not passthrough.

If you do happen to find another unicorn machine -- please do report it here.

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  #6  
02-23-2018, 08:37 AM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
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I have two DVD recorders, a Panasonic DMR EH50 and a Phillips DVDR 3575H. Both of these have S-Video in and a hard drive in addition to the DVD drive. I just replaced a failing HD in the Phillips and was pleasantly surprised to find the operating system is apparently on the board and it formats and can use a new hard drive out of the box. It has to be an IDE drive and I used the same size - 160 GB - since I wasn't sure a larger drive would be recognized. In any case, I haven't seen anything about the Panasonic EH50 anywhere on this forum. Do you know if either of these has a pass-through TBC capability similar to the Panasonic DRM ES10 or ES15? If it does, do you simply use the S-Video in from the VCR and S-Video out to the capture card to use it?
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  #7  
02-23-2018, 09:01 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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As far as anyone knows or has tested for the last 7 or 8 years, no DVD recorders used for pass-thru have the tbc power of the ES10/ES15, not even later Panasonic units. Not all products can be used for tbc pass-thru (most of them work only during record). As far as anyone knows, lesser units that work at all have relatively ineffective tbc's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExUSAF_AV View Post
do you simply use the S-Video in from the VCR and S-Video out to the capture card to use it?
Yes. You can also use the composite output if your have no s-video VCR, as the ES10/15 has excellent dot crawl filters and clean composite/s-video conversion.

You will need the unit's remote to enter the setup menu and turn off DNR, which is overdone and causes smearing and posterizing effects.

A very long discussion thread started in 2010: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...hat-do-you-use
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  #8  
02-23-2018, 09:19 AM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
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Thanks for that information. So the ES10/15 doesn't really have to be fully functional as long as you can get to the setup menu?
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  #9  
02-23-2018, 09:30 AM
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The Philips 3575/3576 is a nice recorder, but I confirmed 10+ years ago (when it was new) than no such TBC/passthrough functionality exist. The best thing about it was 16x9 recording from HD sources, though the recordings were unflagged (played 4x3 in other players/recorders, and needed re-author to set flags correctly).

That exact Panasonic EH50 model also lacks any such feature -- and it was an infamous recorder for multiple reasons (IRE issues, luma greening, hard drive failure, and low quality MPEG quality). The machine sucked.

I'd not say an ES10/15 "doesn't need to be fully functional". It's not true. It needs to function perfectly. At worst, it can have a DVD drive that hates all discs, because the optics have failed. But that specific failure won't cascade or alert the unit of problems (unless you try to insert a disc, and it fails, it it needs to be unplugged to reboot). Bad caps are an issue on ES10/15 units, just like JVC DR-M10/100 (LSI based) decks of the era. If 1 thing is failure (excluding DVD read/write), odds are MANY things have failed. Don't buy a bad deck. Be aware that even many "tested" and "working" decks on eBay do not function correctly, having NOT been actually thoroughly tested, and the seller rarely have any video knowledge.

As far as know, I was the one that discovered the passthrough abilities of the ES10 back in 2005. If I remember correctly, it was a fluke that I saw it, coincidence, happenstance. This was at the height of my testing/reviewing recorders. I was fully expecting to buy it, test it, see that it was terrible, and return it. But I kept it for the passthrough. I reported my findings here and at VH, AVS, Afterdawn, and some others. Since then "does it do passthrough" is a thing. I remember GShelly (@VH) and myself tested dozens of recorders within 6 months, and the only thing that came close was a certain Toshiba unit. I still have his test discs somewhere.

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  #10  
02-23-2018, 02:33 PM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
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"The Philips 3575/3576 is a nice recorder". It's reassuring to know that at least one piece of my hardware isn't a piece of junk. All kidding aside, I saw that the Panasonic ES10 looked very much like the EH50 and was hoping it had the same capability. Oh well! As for the Sony TRV350 playing Hi8 or Digital8 tapes, would you recommend the S-Video output into the AIW 7500 capture card or the DV output into WinDV as the better option since these two options appear to be the only game in town to play these tapes. I seem to recall Sony made an actual deck to play these 8 mm tapes but I think it was only for Hi8 and probably wouldn't play Digital8.
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02-23-2018, 03:59 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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WinDV is for digital source only (Digital8), which is a 1:1 direct copy of the digital8 original, without alteration. DV is PC-only playback. You will have to re-encode for other formats such as DVD, BluRay, mp4, or for web mounting (deinterlace/resize to square-pixel frame size, re-encode for the web). The final output encode will have at least a mild quality loss, more or less depending on how well you can post-process the capture with good but mild filtering of DV compression noise and use sensible encoder settings.

DV was never designed for analog->digital capture, particularly to the lossy DV format, which is not VHS-friendly. Capture of Hi8 to DV via the camera's DV output isn't a 1:1 copy, it's a lossy DV encode with chroma resolution loss, fried/plastic colors, and tape noise/defects which become noisy DV compression artifacts that look worse after post-processing and further lossy encoding to make the "capture" playable on other than a PC. The preferred method for analog Hi8 capture is via s-video to the 7500 and to lossless huffyuv AVI media via VirtualDub or AmarecTV capture. This will avoid initial VHS capture degradation and make for cleaner edits and final encoding to other formats or web posting.
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  #12  
02-23-2018, 08:53 PM
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Give the EH50 (2005) a try.
I was thinking of the other "50" unit, the DMR-E50, from about a years earlier (2003).

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  #13  
02-26-2018, 01:20 PM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
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Thank you, sanlyn and lordsmurf, for this additional information. To summarize to make sure I have not misunderstood:

If I am using the Sony Digital8 camcorder to transfer Digital8 tapes, use WinDV with the camera's DV output (which is firewire) since that is the best you can get from the original tape.

However, if I am using the Sony Digtial8 camcorder to transfer Hi8 tapes (yes it will play them just as well) then the preferred method is to output from the camera's S-Video jack to the AIW7500 Capture card using lossless huffyUV and VirtualDub and ignoring the DV output.

Finally, lordsmurf, is it true that nobody to your knowledge has ever tried the pass-through of the DMR-EH50, which could record either to the DVD recorder or to an internal 100 GB hard drive? Is there any way to tell immediately if you are getting some time based correction from the unit or is it just watch the same video and compare? I am going to assume the passthrough is limited (if it exists at all) in such a way as to honor MacroVision so the correction cannot fix a prerecorded tape.
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  #14  
02-26-2018, 04:28 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The limitation of using pass-thru units is that they are required by law to honor Macrovision. They will not defeat copy protection effects.
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  #15  
03-03-2018, 01:20 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExUSAF_AV View Post
Is there any way to tell immediately if you are getting some time based correction from the unit or is it just watch the same video and compare?
The black borders on the edges of the image is where the difference should be the most obvious. If the unit does time base correction the picture will generally have pretty straight black borders, without it the edges are often wiggly(VHS) or bent. If trying with the Digital8 Camera you will probably have to turn off the internal TBC to see the difference.

Looking at the service manual for the EH50, the video signal path looks pretty much identical to the ES10. Looks as if they may have been part of the same line-up with the EH50 being the higher end model with hard-drive and an SD card?

Last edited by hodgey; 03-03-2018 at 01:34 PM.
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  #16  
03-15-2018, 08:22 AM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
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Yes, the EH50 has hard drive capture to a standard 100 GB hard drive. Not sure if you could get extended play from a larger drive since the boot program is on the board. I think the tuner may be the older non-ASTC that no longer works but I think my primary input was the SVHS anyway.
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  #17  
05-17-2018, 04:57 PM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
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The EH50 is nothing special on the paper (reading the manual now) . I got a dmr-E50 and it appears to be the same w/o a hdd. It reduces horizontal jitter a little but that's about it.Its noise reducer only work for dvd playbacks.

On the contrary, the sony rdr-hxd 870-970-1070 line can record in HQ+ (15 mbps mpeg2) on hdd, seems to do passthrough ntsc 3.58->ntsc 3.58mhz, decent TBC/framesync see here and more interestingly for me proc amp features for recordings (not just dvd playbacks) such as: 3D Y/C (for composite), separate luma /chroma noise reducers, hue,saturation, sharpness, AGC (autogain) ,black ntsc setup, black/white expand. The user can enable/disable what's not necessary.My hope is that it can do all these functions during pass through so i can record lossless with less noise & perfect black/whites and sat. Also YPbPr/hdmi out. Priced higher at the time (~2007) than panasonics
I'll put my hands on one of these very soon so i'll report back here. I bought a Grex (macrovison remover) i'll put in between

-- merged --

I've finally bought a sony rdr hxd 890 dvd recorder (from 2008 i believe in mint condition low use) and it's fantastic so far with its proc amp /separated dnr (can be fully disabled) the HQ + rec mode (15 mbps). I couldn't extract the file from the hdd yet (Linux argh..) for close inspection. It does passthrough aswell.
My panasonic DMR E50 is pale in comparison
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  #18  
05-17-2018, 08:05 PM
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Well passthrough isn't passthrough anymore than a VCR is a VCR (or TBC a TBC).

- How does it act on tearing? That was the main draw to getting an ES10.
- How does it act on both legit and false-detected Macrovision?

I have test tapes with these exact issues, not sure how deep your test bed may go.

I read where that Sony 15mbps is HDD only. I'm guessing it transcodes/shrinks to DVD, cannot transfer to disc. I wish DVD would have supported 15mbps, as that bitrate is almost transparent even on grainy VHS tapes. By 2003, 15mbps would have been possible. The original slow specs were from mid 90s.

LD users are stictlers for 3B Y/C, so curious what somebody like metaleonid would say.

Good luck on the Linux extraction. Let us know if you have any success.

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  #19  
05-17-2018, 08:58 PM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
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There is a procedure to extract the files from the hdd (will try tomorrow). The hdd inside is sata by the way i have extracted it today. Basically you must use winimage to make an image and use the paid version of isobuster to extract the files. sourcehere

As far as color stripes i don't get them anymore, check img below
(1st is sony hxd890,2nd capture card, 3rd c.card+panasonic dmr e50)
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers...608421-scc.jpg

it reduced h.jitter, it's on par with the pana dmr e50 (check images again)
I don't think i have tapes with tearing (not that i recall)..hard to try
I will check more for macrovision though
Smtg i forgot to mention it record 720x480i unlike the panasonic 704x480i ...which is cool

Last edited by themaster1; 05-17-2018 at 09:10 PM.
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  #20  
05-18-2018, 07:43 AM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
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Success ! I've used a simpler method the one & only Photorec once again proved to be useful.
First the disk wasn't recognised (RAW) so i used Ext2Fsd-0.69.exe to assign it a letter.
Then i used diskpart (command line utility for partitions) to find the partition and activate it (not sure if this step was necessary though) and finally Photorec: i've scanned for .mpg only. First pass it found nothing (0 files, strangely enough) on the second it found 7 files a recovered them
1st pass took 30min, 2nd ~ 30 min (but it continued to scan up to 1hour...strange)
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