Quantcast Panasonic ES10 EU edition: inputs and settings? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
12-26-2018, 03:40 PM
OBNOXIUs OBNOXIUs is offline
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I bought a Panasonic ES10 for 20 in Belgium, and I am now hooking it up to my VCR (JVC HR-S7600EU) to start digitizing a fairly big amount of VHS cassettes. The problem is what input to choose on the ES10...
The manual says to hook a VCR via SCART to the AV2 input, but there is also an S-Video input on the front (input AV3, the one to choose for connecting camcorders says the manual, and it mentions "DIGA Engine" on a sticker) and an S-Video input at the back.
  • AV2: SCART on back panel
  • AV3: S-video on front panel
  • AV4: S-video on back panel
Furthermore, the settings are not so clear about the TBC function...The only relevant options I found are 'NR' and 'Comb filter' (settings screenshot attached).

I also understood I should turn off the Line TBC of the JVC HR-S7600 to let the ES10 do its work?

I'm completely new to digitizing VHS (just read this forum a lot , and can't yet tell the difference from seeing the picture. Almost all of them are 1st gen TV captures, and they look very good to my eye. I'm also planning on buying a DataVideo TBC, but want to know how (or if) this ES10 works!


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  #2  
12-27-2018, 01:59 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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JVC 7600: If you use the TBC Function from the vcr the Panasonic ES10 has no function. You must turn the TBC off, play the tape for about 10 seconds with the B.E.S.T function (the B.E.S.T function needs about 7 seconds for the calibration) then rewind the tape and turn the B.E.S.T function off and use the edit mode to capture.

Panasonic ES10: Use the front inputs, the comb filter only works if you use the composite inputs. The noise reduction you should turn off. As output you must use the scart 1 connector with an adapter which you can use with an s-video cable. All other outputs have brightness variations.

If you can read german language you should read this:
https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...en-und-andere/
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  #3  
12-27-2018, 02:17 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If you can read german language you should read this:
https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...en-und-andere/
Thanks for the link. It's a good source of information about Euro a/v connections. But be careful -- the articles insist that Canopus/Grass Valley analog-to-lossy DV is the only way to digitize VHS. This is not only untrue, it's also a poor way to digitize analog sources and can cripple efforts to achieve high quality video repair and improvement.
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  #4  
12-27-2018, 02:24 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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You are wrong Sanlyn.
The Canopus NX capture in YUV and not in DV. It's not the ADVC 300. Yes the winner was the Canopus NX and on second place was the Blackmagic shuttle capture through HDMI Inputs.

Here's the comparision Blackmagic Shuttle vs. Canopus NX but only in German language:Comparision Blackmagic shuttle vs Canopus NX.png


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  #5  
12-27-2018, 02:53 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks for clarifying.
I've seen actual videos. BlackMagic. Etc. ??? Very strange looking plastic stuff that ruins color and is denuded of subtlety. If you want a two-dimensional, artificial digital etching of analog sources, you'll be deliriously happy. It looks irreparably damaged to me. Thank goodness my tapes haven't gone through that level of loss.

I understand. When you can't see the difference, the results give one a feeling of comfort and satisfaction. But not everyone is that blind.
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  #6  
12-27-2018, 03:15 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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What kind of videos you have seen from the Blackmagic?

You really have read and undeerstood the tutorial from the german video forum?

Have you ever tested the Shuttlle or the Canopus NX by yourself. If you wanna see some capture to compare let me know what kind of content you wanna see and will upload them.

I had said this before the Blackmagic is only used as HDMI Interface to grab the stream from the dvd recorder. It's more a comparision of the dvd recorder which is used with HDMI output.

What kind of discussions is this here? I share here experiences from other (PAL) country and you just call them blind and it looks like you never have made your own experience with the shuttle and the nx.
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  #7  
12-29-2018, 04:19 PM
OBNOXIUs OBNOXIUs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
JVC 7600: If you use the TBC Function from the vcr the Panasonic ES10 has no function. You must turn the TBC off, play the tape for about 10 seconds with the B.E.S.T function (the B.E.S.T function needs about 7 seconds for the calibration) then rewind the tape and turn the B.E.S.T function off and use the edit mode to capture.
Didn't know this, but looks like a plan. B.E.S.T. is the same as Video Calibration? I just had my first tape jam (I managed to save the VHS & the VCR) but I guess that has nothing to do with calibration? I did notice that the video was a lot more shaky after fast-forwarding with B.E.S.T off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Panasonic ES10: Use the front inputs, the comb filter only works if you use the composite inputs. The noise reduction you should turn off. As output you must use the scart 1 connector with an adapter which you can use with an s-video cable. All other outputs have brightness variations.
The gleitz website is not so clear about what input to use, but after some watching & comparing I believe you should definitely use the front S-video input (AV3), like you said! The other inputs had moving lines on the screen and busy color movement (all subtle, but noticeable) but when using AV3 they were all gone!

The output remark is also very interesting. I was capturing the tape via S-video out on my pc, while watching it through AV1 SCART on the same screen (switching inputs), and liked the colors more from the SCART output. It looked more natural, the captured video had somehow more vivid colors, but overdone...I thought it maybe had something to do with the capture card, but apparently it is something else! I need to buy a SCART/S-video adapter then.

About AV1: you can choose what kind of signal to output throught SCART (video, S-video, RGB). I chose RGB, because my TV can't handle S-video. But does it make sense also to capture in RGB instead of S-video? Does the Panasonic engine add extra color information, or will all the info still be in an S-video signal? I should buy a SCART-RGB break-out cable and a different capture card, if that's the case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If you can read german language you should read this:
https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...en-und-andere/
Interesting post! But it seems not as detailed and founded as some of the information here on this forum? It's quite a different approach, using a Panasonic DVR to digitize your analog signal and then capturing it digitally later...how does it stand versus letting a USB capture card (like the ATI 600) do the digitization?
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  #8  
12-30-2018, 03:33 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The instructions for connecting your player to a capture device using s-video seem correct. If you are using an ATI 600 USB capture device, connect your s-video to the s-video input on the ATI 600, and connect audio to the ATI 600 as well. The capture software we recommend is VirtualDub, although many use AmarecTV.
Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide]

Analog tape is captured to YUY2 color using a lossless codec (Huffyuv preferred, but you can also use Lagarith or UT Video codec). It's recommended that you should never capture VHS YUV source to RGB color. Capture to lossy DV or other lossy codecs such as h.264 or mpeg is not recommended and causes serious image degradation during restoration processing (color correction, denoising, etc.). If you expect to perform any sort of restoration or repair to your captures, do not use lossy codecs.

An ES10 or ES15 is used as an intermediate tbc pass-thru device between the signal source and the capture device, not as a recorder. The ES10/15 is capable of both line-level and frame-level (frame-sync) tbc correction. Bogilein is correct in that using the 7600's line tbc and the ES10 as a line-tbc at the same time means that the ES10/15 line-tbc won't do anything because the 7600 line-tbc will have already made corrections, so there would be nothing for the ES10/15 line-tbc to do. Using both line-tbc devices inline at the same time often causes many timing problems. For line-tbc, use either the 7600 or the ES10/15, but not both. The ES10/ES15 has a stronger line-tbc than the 7600, but the 7600 is cleaner and is usually sufficient.

The ES10/ES15 can also be used as a frame-level tbc in pass-thru mode, if you need a clean and steady frame-sync correction to avoid dropped frames and bad audio sync. The frame-level tbc circuit of the pass-thru is sufficient for most purposes but is not complete in that it will not remove copy protection. If you are going to connect an ES10/15 to your 7600 to make use of the Panasonic's frame-level tbc, turn off the 7600's line tbc if you see any distortion or frame hopping in the results, and use the Panasonic's line-tbc instead.

The difference between line-level and frame-level tbc correction can be described in the following way, but it is very much over-simplified: A line-level tbc corrects scanline timing errors and distortion within individual video frames. A frame-level tbc corrects frame-to-frame timing errors. You need both types of tbc for analog capture.
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  #9  
12-30-2018, 04:02 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
What kind of videos you have seen from the Blackmagic?

You really have read and undeerstood the tutorial from the german video forum?

Have you ever tested the Shuttlle or the Canopus NX by yourself. If you wanna see some capture to compare let me know what kind of content you wanna see and will upload them.

I had said this before the Blackmagic is only used as HDMI Interface to grab the stream from the dvd recorder. It's more a comparision of the dvd recorder which is used with HDMI output.

What kind of discussions is this here? I share here experiences from other (PAL) country and you just call them blind and it looks like you never have made your own experience with the shuttle and the nx.
I've seen plenty of posts in other forums, and used a Canopus earlier, and newer equipment later. What was your experience, and what did you compare the results to?

Let me emphasize as follows, as strongly but as politely as I can: I will never insult my client's intelligence or esthetic sensitivity, nor damage my own work or cobble my own restoration efforts, by capturing VHS sources to lossy codecs. I will always assume that others can see and detect and dislike lossy capture compression problems and will never assume that other users are so visually deficient as to be unable to notice the difference between lossless and lossy processing. I've also been through the business of comparing captures made with high-def/digital-source devices and codecs and capture devices, and lossless captures made with lossless codecs and capture devices optimized for analog source, and will stick with analog-targeted devices every time. I've also been through the HDMI debates (do you really want stranded-wire Ethernet cable for your video connections?) and will stick with only one or two well-tested s-video cables until I find something better. I have matched captures with my ATI 7500 and 9600XT AIW's against Magewell, Canopus, and BM, invested lots of time and money and effort in the process, and had a hell of a time recovering my investment and getting rid of the last three items, finally just giving the BM away to someone who wouldn't know analog from an electronic cigarette. I tried compressed and uncompressed. But with any method or setting I saw the same fried color, phony contouring, and inner detail loss. I can say that at the onset of the experiment I knew I was going against the advice of long-time professionals and comparison posts I had already seen, also that I was repeating what I had learned earlier about certain elements of working with Canopus, and that effectively I was trying to re-invent a wheel that had been invented and well-proven decades ago. I was not surprised by anything I saw, and I convinced myself for good that I don't want to hassle with any of it again. And if I seem a bit smarmy or irritable here, I confess that this debate is a very old one that has been getting very repetitious for over two decades now and the results are always the same.

Your mileage may vary. Mine varied once, but never will again.

Last edited by sanlyn; 12-30-2018 at 04:27 AM.
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  #10  
01-03-2019, 02:39 AM
OBNOXIUs OBNOXIUs is offline
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Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
As output you must use the scart 1 connector with an adapter which you can use with an s-video cable. All other outputs have brightness variations.
It's kind of annoying that the only good output on this European model is a SCART output. That means people have to use a SCART to S-video adapter to make full use of the ES10? Maybe I'm overcautious, but I've read that SCART doesn't give the cleanest signal because some pins are used for multiple purposes? And adding an adapter to the chain is again adding a possible hazard for problems and image distortion...

Learning about this stuff and expanding my technical knowledge is great, but hopefully I will one day be assured and pleased with every element in my workflow
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