Quantcast Sony RDR-AT200 DVD recorder as TBC, capture via HDMI? - digitalFAQ Forum
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  #1  
02-21-2019, 08:26 AM
jnielsen jnielsen is offline
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I have got hold of a Sony RDR-AT200 DVD recorder in good shape

Can it be used for anything, when capturing from VHS?
Like pass-though TBC.
Or for pass through and capture directly and upscaled from the HDMI? Instead of using svhs output.

I already have the following devices:
Panasonic ES10: Good for bad tapes, but I find the picture sometimes looks a little over-processed
Panasonic ES15: Not so strong TBC as ES10 but enough for most tapes, and more natural look
Panasonic DMR-EX77: Almost identical TBC "strength" as ES15
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  #2  
02-21-2019, 10:42 AM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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It might work, I know the slightly older models do at least. I use a Sony RDR-HX750 for pass-through, the line-TBC is not quite as strong as the ES10, but ok on most tapes, and it provides a stable output signal and is more neutral. These were made together with pioneer (the Pioneer DVR-550 is basically identical). Their earlier sony-made models don't have the same capabilities as far as I know (I got a RDR-HX910 and it doesn't correct jitter and processes in 4:2:0).

This one seems to be from 2009, another user here tested the RDR-HX890 which is a year older and it seemed to correct horizontal jitter to an extent.

For HDMI capture you would need something to strip off HDCP. At least my HX750 does not at all support non-HDCP devices.
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  #3  
02-21-2019, 01:42 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnielsen View Post
I already have the following devices:
Panasonic ES10: Good for bad tapes, but I find the picture sometimes looks a little over-processed
Panasonic ES15: Not so strong TBC as ES10 but enough for most tapes, and more natural look
Panasonic DMR-EX77: Almost identical TBC "strength" as ES15
I'm glad to read someone have noticed that the Panasonic ES10 & ES15 have different jitter correction ability.
Usually everyone say you have to buy the ES10 or ES15.
I have 2 Sony RDR (HX680 & HX 870) and 4 Panasonics (ES10,ES15,EH65,EH495). The jitter correction isn't as good as by the panasonics. But for first generation tapes it will be often good enough.
Big advantage for the Sony against the Panasonics they have a AGC control which you can adjust.
The HDMI output has the resolution 720x576 and the analog outputs have only the resolution 704x576.
If you use the HDMI output you save the digital to analog conversation for the analog outputs and then the anlog to digital conversation for the capture card.
You can grab the digital stream from the sony RDR with the Blackmagic Shuttle. I only recommend the Shuttle if you want to grab the digital stream from any dvd recorder with hdmi output.
But the HDMI Output is HDCP copy protected and you have to buy something like this:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00FECY0CI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Another nice feature from the sony rdr is you can record on hdd with 15 Mbps (HQ+ Mode). But you have to remove the hdd from the RDR to save it to your pc hdd.
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  #4  
02-24-2019, 04:07 PM
jnielsen jnielsen is offline
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Thank you for the answers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Big advantage for the Sony against the Panasonics they have a AGC control which you can adjust..
What is AGC control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
The HDMI output has the resolution 720x576 and the analog outputs have only the resolution 704x576.
If you use the HDMI output you save the digital to analog conversation for the analog outputs and then the anlog to digital conversation for the capture card.
You can grab the digital stream from the sony RDR with the Blackmagic Shuttle. I only recommend the Shuttle if you want to grab the digital stream from any dvd recorder with hdmi output...
I read about that workflow in a german forum. Right now I capture from SVHS out on the ES15 or DX77 (has HDMI). But I am kind of fascinated with the direct digital output, Especially if it is a square pixels format like 1920x1080. will the quality from HDMI be better? Has anybody compared both workflows?
It seems that the Blackmagic Shuttle is allways mentioned, is it the only one that can capture from HDMI?
Why exactly is the extra HDCP box needed, and what is it, it is not copyrighted material,?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Another nice feature from the sony rdr is you can record on hdd with 15 Mbps (HQ+ Mode). But you have to remove the hdd from the RDR to save it to your pc hdd.
Interesting, i could imagine a workflow recording directly to this harddrive or maybe modify it so that it was connected with longer cables as an external drive, but will it be better, is 15Mbps not overkill, what format is it on the harddrive?
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  #5  
02-26-2019, 02:16 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnielsen View Post
What is AGC control?
I hope I can describe it right in english language.
Every dvd recorder has a agc (automatic gain control) at the inputs.
The AGC raise the video signal based on the burst signal to the norm level. But it could be that the white levels are too high and will be clipped if you use a panasonic dmr. Because you can't adjust the agc control.
The sony dvd/hdd recorder have a adjustable agc control. You can made video content visible which would be out of the capture range 0-255.

Have a look at the picture I have posted in this forum thread:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/9190-comparing-capture-cards.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by jnielsen View Post
But I am kind of fascinated with the direct digital output, Especially if it is a square pixels format like 1920x1080. will the quality from HDMI be better?
The native stream from the dvd recorder is for pal country 720x576i. All other output from HDMI would be upscaling and I would not recommend. You must set the hdmi output to 720x576i but not every dvd recorder offer this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnielsen View Post
It seems that the Blackmagic Shuttle is allways mentioned, is it the only one that can capture from HDMI?
Why exactly is the extra HDCP box needed, and what is it, it is not copyrighted material,?
I only know the Blackmagic Shuttle/Intensity who can capture the hdmi output to lossless 4:2:2 YUV.
The HDMI output is copy protected with HDCP. To remove the copy protection you'll need a hdmi switcher who removes it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jnielsen View Post
Interesting, i could imagine a workflow recording directly to this harddrive or maybe modify it so that it was connected with longer cables as an external drive, but will it be better, is 15Mbps not overkill, what format is it on the harddrive?
The format would be mpg2 on the hard drive. 15Mbps isn't overkill for vhs tapes (vhs has a lot of noise) recorded in mpg2. If you remove the hard disk from the dvd recorder you have to made a raw copy of it on windows system and then you can extract the mpg files.
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  #6  
02-26-2019, 06:10 PM
jnielsen jnielsen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
The native stream from the dvd recorder is for pal country 720x576i. All other output from HDMI would be upscaling and I would not recommend. You must set the hdmi output to 720x576i but not every dvd recorder offer this.
I also use PAL. When I capture I capture in MPG2 or AVI and convert to deinterlaced MP4 (with QTGMC) and then I resize to 960x720 (Spline36) because some software players and TVs cannot display 720x576 as 4:3 when it is MP4. They display it as 5:4 making the picture more narrow. Have you compared the quality of HDMI output capture to SVHS out capture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
The sony dvd/hdd recorder have a adjustable agc control. You can made video content visible which would be out of the capture range 0-255.
Have a look at the picture I have posted in this forum thread:
Comparing capture cards handling lousy tapes?
I have looked on the picture and see what you mean, the white details disappear, you write "my experience is that the panasonics dmrs clip the white level". But when I capture the Panasonic DVD lowers, the white level instead of raising it. Or can it do both lower the level and clip the detail anyway? The white level is also depending on the VCR some have high white levels (255, Panasonic HS950) others low (220, Panasonic 800).

I like a capture where almost all levels 0-255 is used and no details clipped, how do I achieve that with the Panasonic? Can the white levels be adjusted up and down on the Sony with this adjustable AGC?

I have made som tests of combinations of video recorders and DVD recorders, here is two of them:
Panasonic NV-HS800 VCR + Panasonic DMR-ES10, ES15, EX77 DVD recorder
https://youtu.be/9_xue8-gGLM
Panasonic NV-HS820 VCR + Panasonic DMR-ES10, ES15, EX77 DVD recorder
https://youtu.be/DsgmuQT4udE
The conclusion is they have similar effect but output different white levels.
When I have time I will maybe post some more.

Last edited by jnielsen; 02-26-2019 at 06:21 PM.
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  #7  
02-28-2019, 05:36 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnielsen View Post
Have you compared the quality of HDMI output capture to SVHS out capture?


I like a capture where almost all levels 0-255 is used and no details clipped, how do I achieve that with the Panasonic? Can the white levels be adjusted up and down on the Sony with this adjustable AGC?
Yes, I have compared a few testing clips. I will upload some of them later.

If you wanna use the Panasonic you need a vcr with agc control (like the Panasonic AG-7750) or you need a video enhancer with contrast/brightness control in front of the panasonic. On German market you can find some (Hama, vivanco) for cheap prices (1-20 Euro). If you look at the picture. At the 4th one I have used the hama av 128 video prozessor in front of the panasonic dmr. You have to reduce the contrast. Unfortunately it could be possible that the video processor ad some ghosting, noise. You have to try it.

Yes you can adjust the white level with the sony. Have a look at the 3rd picture. Here I have used the Sony RDR-680.

SuperweissVergleich.jpg


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  #8  
02-28-2019, 06:49 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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What settings did you use on the Sony? Did you turn on White AGC?

Is YUV Filter 16-235 a setting on the panasonic?

Quote:
On German market you can find some (Hama, vivanco) for cheap prices (1-20 Euro).
You want to be a bit careful with those, I have a Vivanco VCR 3078 that I picked up a while back as a curiosity. It has a pretty noticeable impact on the image. Don't have a screenshot handy but I can make one if you're curious.
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  #9  
03-01-2019, 02:13 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is online now
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I have use the YUV-filter from Edius to demonstrate that it isn't possible to get the clipped white back.

Yes I know that you have to use the old Hama/Vivanco video enhancers carefully. It's the cheapest solution but far away to be the best. If you only use the composite input connector from the panasonic dmr you can adjust the video with a potentiometer between 2 composite cables.

That's why I sometimes use the Sony/Pioneer dvd recorder for light jitter correction or the canopus nx card.
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  #10  
03-03-2019, 05:22 PM
jnielsen jnielsen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If you look at the picture. At the 4th one I have used the hama av 128 video prozessor in front of the panasonic dmr. You have to reduce the contrast.
This is a great test you have made. I see what you mean.
But in my case it is quite opposite. I have to increase the contrast. When capturing through Panasonic ES10 the white level is reduced from 230 to 208.

In this test video you can see the difference in white level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsgmuQT4udE&t=11s
VHS capture Panasonic NV-HS820 VCR + Panasonic DVD recorder

In the capture program I can increase contrast a little to counter that
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  #11  
03-04-2019, 12:52 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is online now
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Which capture card you have use to capture the video?

Do you have use the Y/C connectors or composite?

Have you edit your capture to range 16-235 with the settings (contrast/brightness) of your capture card?
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  #12  
03-04-2019, 06:31 PM
jnielsen jnielsen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Which capture card you have use to capture the video?

Do you have use the Y/C connectors or composite?

Have you edit your capture to range 16-235 with the settings (contrast/brightness) of your capture card?
I use Hauppauge USB2 Live
I use S-VHS (I assume it is Y/C)

I do not know how to change the capture range. I use Pinnacle Studio 12 Ultimate for capture. I can increase contrast and brightness with sliders, but I rarely use it.
But I can capture white, the capture is not allways in the 16-235 range. When capturing directly from Pansonic HS960 VCR i get white=255, but from HS800 i get white=220.

I usually convert to MP4 and uses an Avisynth script to deinterlace and resize. I have tried Levels(16, 1, 235, 0, 255, coring=false) command and it raises the white level, but if white is allready good it makes light gray almost white ( Panasonic HS960 grey 225->250 ). That is why I do not use it, I fear to clip the whites or blacks, maybe ColorYUV(levels="PC->TV") is better?

My knowledge of color spaces and ranges are unfortunately very basic. I would better accept that white is not pure white than risk clipping the white.
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