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  #41  
03-29-2012, 07:39 PM
Acden Acden is offline
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Thank you, it was interesting. Will be waiting for your S7600e/S9600e compartment.

There is no models in PAL higher than 9600Eu could be found on eBay. So, 9500/9600 is the higher choose.
(If someone wants to sell them - PM me, I'm interested).
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  #42  
03-29-2012, 09:13 PM
juhok juhok is offline
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There's always the HM-DR1000, beats the 9000 PALs in every area of operation in my subjective opinion.
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  #43  
03-29-2012, 10:48 PM
Jarvis Jarvis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acden View Post
Thank you, it was interesting. Will be waiting for your S7600e/S9600e compartment.

There is no models in PAL higher than 9600Eu could be found on eBay. So, 9500/9600 is the higher choose.
(If someone wants to sell them - PM me, I'm interested).
There's actually a number of later models currently available on eBay.co.uk and eBay.de, that are sold in working condition and either ship worldwide or at least outside of Germany: SR-V10EK, HR-DVS2, HR-DVS3, SR-VS30, HM-DR10000EU. The last one which is the D-VHS model, I've personally never seen being available outside Europe, for whatever reason. There's workarounds to getting it shipped to otherwise unavailable locations though, if you really want it. All those listings are high priced, though with the "best offer" option which you could get lucky on, but I haven't bought from any of those sellers so I can't vouch for them. There are sellers who specialize in PAL VCRs and always have good models in stock, such as VCR for you and VCR-shop-nl, which should be a decent option to buy from. My recommendation is charly_rackslider, who personally services his units and is a friendly and helpful seller, also provides 1 year warranty like many Euro sellers do.

From my experience, there are plenty of recommended models still available, it is possible to get the model you want and have it in great condition if you're patient. Prices are getting higher and there is no point in buying a unit unless you're convinced it will be worth it. There are models like the D-VHS, however, that are especially difficult to obtain if you live outside Europe. Since I live in Australia, it's not worth the effort for me when there are many other nice models that I can have directly shipped. It's not even an option to buy locally, in all my time I have seen just 1 high-end unit on eBay.com.au (mini-dv combo) which fetched much too high of a price for something untested/unserviced.

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Originally Posted by juhok View Post
There's always the HM-DR1000, beats the 9000 PALs in every area of operation in my subjective opinion.
I'd say you're right, and it's apparently better built than the NTSC models also, at least up to the last ones released. It's the only D-VHS PAL model I'm aware of, haven't seen any evidence of later versions. But it is unfortunately a rare item, probably comparable in availability to SR-W5U/SR-W7U for NTSC regions. Wish there was some PAL versions of those - from what I've read they're supposed to be the holy grail of JVCs.

Last edited by Jarvis; 03-29-2012 at 11:15 PM.
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  #44  
03-30-2012, 01:17 AM
Acden Acden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok View Post
There's always the HM-DR1000, beats the 9000 PALs in every area of operation in my subjective opinion.
Just operating differences, not image quality/filters?


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Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
There's actually a number of later models currently available on eBay.co.uk and eBay.de, that are sold in working condition and either ship worldwide or at least outside of Germany: SR-V10EK, HR-DVS2, HR-DVS3, SR-VS30, HM-DR10000EU.
These mini-DV combos are very expensive. So, what is the reason to buy them for up to 400$, if I can buy 9000-line model (like 9500) for 150-250$?
9000 models have all the needed filters, isn't it?

Or models, you gave links to are more interesting/functionally/image quality?

====
I have ability to buy JVC HR-S8955EE (looks like it is absolutely new, but it makes no much sense to me) and to buy HR-9500E/HR-9600E.

Which one should I prefer? Why?
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  #45  
03-30-2012, 04:32 AM
Jarvis Jarvis is offline
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Originally Posted by Acden View Post
Just operating differences, not image quality/filters? These mini-DV combos are very expensive. So, what is the reason to buy them for up to 400$, if I can buy 9000-line model (like 9500) for 150-250$? 9000 models have all the needed filters, isn't it? Or models, you gave links to are more interesting/functionally/image quality? ==== I have ability to buy JVC HR-S8955EE (looks like it is absolutely new, but it makes no much sense to me) and to buy HR-9500E/HR-9600E. Which one should I prefer? Why?
I'm not in a position to give advice, since most of what I know is based on research rather than practice; accumulated knowledge from trawling various forums and sites. But my feeling on it is that since those particular models are newer, they could generally be in better shape or possibly have better mechanics, either of which would give better performance. Plus possibly more refined features/improved playback ie. TBC, PQ, AQ. However, it does depend on the owner, and I have seen a number of these combo decks listed as defective, which would have something to do with them being combo decks. The mini-dv section in particular seems to be the common problem, but I don't know what impact that has on the rest of the machine. I know nothing of their mechanics or playback quality compared to older models, so it'd be great to get some feedback from someone knowledgeable on the topic.

The HM-DR10000EU is the exception here. It's typically praised as being TOTL with superior transport, performance and PQ, also an enhanced TBC as already explained in this thread. I have seen some unfavorable comments about its NR though. These VCRs rarely show up, and are limited to shipping within Europe, though I suppose for most PAL users that's not a problem. They would likely be in better shape, being in less circulation means they could be less abused by hobbyists putting them to work. Interestingly, there's actually no age difference between this model and the HR-S9600EU - according to their manuals, both were manufactured in 1999. At this point, even a well-kept unit could be a gamble.

The disadvantage of all JVCs, AFAIK, is that they are difficult to repair and have inferior transports compared to Panasonics. So it's especially important to buy one in good condition, preferably from someone who is knowledgeable on VCRs. I've read that the Dynamic Drum in models such as the 9600EU can be a problem source, and in my case, it's why my seller has taken steps to ensure it's not a problem. IMO making a decision on which particular JVC to buy comes second to finding any working Digipure-equipped model from a reputable seller - as I've read numerous times, they are all somewhat similar with an exception or two, and hunting for the ideal machine may not be practical. It is possible to acquire, but with patience.

As for the HR-S8955, it would belong to the last of the classic models manufactured in 2000's, and as mentioned already, I've read that they are mechanically inferior to the older machines. But if you're convinced it's in great condition, it's reasonably priced and especially with warranty, it could be a good choice. The 9500 and 9600 EU are more of a risk due to being older, having Dynamic Drum, and actually in wider circulation from what I've seen; they may have passed through more hands, the latter being a kind of cult model and popular for capture work. But it does depend on the seller, and I've been led to believe the 9600EU is the better machine, as long as it's in top order. Also be aware that a working unit can become a faulty unit during shipping, simply from incompetent packing. Make sure that whoever you're buying from has a good track record for delivering items safely.

Last edited by Jarvis; 03-30-2012 at 04:55 AM.
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  #46  
03-30-2012, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
since those particular models are newer, they could generally be in better shape or possibly have better mechanics, either of which would give better performance. Plus possibly more refined features/improved playback ie. TBC, PQ, AQ.
While that would seem to make logical sense, I don't think it is. A lot of the desired S-VHS hardware was owned by professionals and advanced hobbyists. And it cost a lot more than average consumer-grade video hardware sold at Best Buy and Walmart. The demographics of S-VHS VCR owners tends to be more responsible, thus age has less to do with condition. For them, this equipment was often a major investment, not something in reach of children or adult goobers. In fact, JVC hardware is nowhere near as likely to just die on the shelf, as compared to Panasonic hardware with it's stack of boards full of decaying capacitors.

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However, it does depend on the owner, and I have seen a number of these combo decks listed as defective, which would have something to do with them being combo decks.
Professionals mostly avoided combo decks, because of known problems with those types of devices. Wear is compounded, shortcuts are often taken in the manufacturing (underpowered single power supply, for example), and there is often crosstalk that displays as audio-visual noise, since the components are so closely packed into the case. Saving space was the main objective -- not quality. A lot of the so-called "Professional Series" decks appear to have marketed to places like Walgreens and Wolf Camera, who were trying to enter the VHS-to-DVD conversion business and wanted kiosk-sized workstations.

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The mini-dv section in particular seems to be the common problem, but I don't know what impact that has on the rest of the machine. I know nothing of their mechanics or playback quality compared to older models, so it'd be great to get some feedback from someone knowledgeable on the topic.
MiniDV is a flimsy and fragile tapes, even more than VHS was. Yes, the signal integrity is better, because it's on/off digital (no analog decay), but the tape is still just a piece of shaved polymer with metal particles glued to it. Just like VHS, every time the tape is run through hardware, there is risk of damage to both the tape and the VTR. I've really not seen, heard, or read about any significant issues with the JVC MiniDV/S-VHS combo decks. In fact, most owners seem fond of them, aside from the incompatibility with a certain DV codec (I forget if it was Canon or Sony).

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HR-S9600EU - according to their manuals, both were manufactured in 1999.
That must be a second manufacturing run, because I was under the impression that the EU model was concurrent (or just slightly after) the U models, which were released around 1996. I already owned 9800 models by 1998 or 1999, and the 9600 had been out for at least a couple of years at that time. I know for certain that I had 3800U models in 1998-1999, because I used them for recording new TV shows and Cartoon Network shows at that time.

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The disadvantage of all JVCs, AFAIK, is that they are difficult to repair and have inferior transports compared to Panasonics.
As somebody that both repairs and maintains a lot of equipment, I have to strongly disagree with this assessment. JVC VCRs tend to stay in better condition, and have fewer problems. The transports vary between models, and I'd argue that the 9600-9900 transports are excellent, second to none. The Panasonic transports are better in a general sense (some of the JVC transports are lousy in end-of-life and lower-end models), but for the most part Panasonic is just different. That's one reason Panasonic can player some tapes better than JVC decks (mostly NTSC EP/SLP mode), and inversely why JVC often looks superior to Panasonic on other tapes. At worst, JVC transports due seem to go out of alignment with age (gravity), so keep a close eye on tape feathering, as well as recording quality if using to record video.

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As for the HR-S8955, it would belong to the last of the classic models manufactured in 2000's, and as mentioned already, I've read that they are mechanically inferior to the older machines.
Not really. The 8955 was manufactured around 2002 or so, going from memory. I bought some 8965/7965 models from UK in 2004 brand new (manufactured in Germany). These are all excellent models. I don't doubt that Panasonic NV-FS200 and equivalent models are just as good, however.

Important to note: PAL doesn't really have all the tape-based issues like NTSC does, because there's only two recording modes: SP and LP. While E180 tapes are six hours in long-play mode, it's just LP, and LP is close to SP in quality. NTSC uses T120 tapes at a highly compressed/overlapping SLP (or EP) mode, and it has issues. This is something to always keep in mind when having international discussions on which VCR is "best", as many of us NTSC users look at the dreaded SLP/EP performance.

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more of a risk due to being older, having Dynamic Drum
While I don't doubt that the dynamic drum can eventually lead to problems in some units, and may be harder to source parts for in PAL countries, I've just not seen an outbreak of dead dynamic drums that would lead to such a worry. I know this topic has been discussed a few times on the forum, in other past posts (search the forum for them). Of all the things to worry about, I think this one falls rather low on the list. I'd be more concerned about damaged heads from misuse or abuse, more than malfunction of the dynamic system.

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Also be aware that a working unit can become a faulty unit during shipping, simply from incompetent packing. Make sure that whoever you're buying from has a good track record for delivering items safely.
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  #47  
03-30-2012, 05:06 AM
juhok juhok is offline
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There's been times when many HM-DR1000's are up for auction simultaneously. Prices have been cheap too. Some years ago they were in the 500-1000€ range but nowdays it's only a couple of hundred. Seems like none is up for sale just now but with a little wait I bet there'll be some soon.
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  #48  
03-30-2012, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Acden View Post
I see. I mean why it is not in recommended list.
This is simply due to being a work in progress.

We've been verifying the models one by one, instead of just randomly publishing a list like most of sites would do. It wouldn't be ethical to recommend somebody spend money on something if we're not sure our advice is accurate and reliable. In the Wikipedia era, I know that sounds shocking, but some of us actually like providing useful information, not just stuffing websites full of "content".

That model was verified a while back -- a number of them were, in fact. The site to-do list is just rather long, and we've not gotten back to list updates just yet. I just now updated the list with the 9600. Several of the 77xx models belong, too.

Make sense?

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  #49  
03-30-2012, 09:03 AM
Jarvis Jarvis is offline
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I value your feedback kpmedia, there's an abundance of confusing and contradicting info out there and it's nice to get some clarification from professionals. A couple of things I'd like to continue discussing:

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Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
That must be a second manufacturing run, because I was under the impression that the EU model was concurrent (or just slightly after) the U models, which were released around 1996. I already owned 9800 models by 1998 or 1999, and the 9600 had been out for at least a couple of years at that time.
I'm not convinced it is a 2nd run, because refering to the EISA video awards, the manufacturing year of 1999 lines up. From 1998 to 2001, the winning VCRs are HR-S9500E, HR-DVS1 and HR-S9700, and the HR-S9700EU manual also shows the year 2000. Could it be a case of same model number, different machine? I may have heard about that happening before throughout the JVC line-up. They 9600EU does look totally different to the U model after all.

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Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
As somebody that both repairs and maintains a lot of equipment, I have to strongly disagree with this assessment. JVC VCRs tend to stay in better condition, and have fewer problems. The transports vary between models, and I'd argue that the 9600-9900 transports are excellent, second to none. The Panasonic transports are better in a general sense (some of the JVC transports are lousy in end-of-life and lower-end models), but for the most part Panasonic is just different. That's one reason Panasonic can player some tapes better than JVC decks (mostly NTSC EP/SLP mode), and inversely why JVC often looks superior to Panasonic on other tapes. At worst, JVC transports due seem to go out of alignment with age (gravity), so keep a close eye on tape feathering, as well as recording quality if using to record video.
From my own experience, I would actually agree with you on JVC transport quality, my HR-S7600EU and even my HR-S5700AM do an admirable job of tracking tapes. What is most obvious is how the JVCs, particularly on B.E.S.T. mode, significantly minimize tape errors that are very visible on both my NV-FS200s, and I've tested this on a variety of tapes. However, I've read time and again that the G decks like the NV-FS200 are indeed superior, that JVC transports should not be trusted and and are known for eating tapes, especially VHS-C, and go so far as quietly erasing tapes. In fact a strong reason I bought the NV-FS200s was to capture my VHS-C tapes without them being eaten. In your opinion, using my C-P7U adapter, could they be just as safe in a high-end JVC model such as the 9600EU I'm soon to receive?
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  #50  
03-30-2012, 09:29 AM
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A number of JVC models appear to be the same machine with multiple model numbers. The Panasonic AG-1980P, for example, had a lot of variations throughout the life of its model line. I think JVC just gave new variations of existing models a new model number. I think that's one reason we have models like the 7722, 7955 and 7965. These are essentially the same machines. A number of JVC VCRs share the same service manuals.

The JVC VCR models were also not necessarily linear. Higher/lower numbers are not always telling, even if it is true most of the time.

I would never put a VHS-C or S-VHS-C tape in any JVC S-VHS VCR, even using a high grade JVC C-P7U adapter. Take that quality adapter and put it into a Panasonic VCR. The transport and heads just seem to function better on the compact VHS-based formats. Again, it's not that JVC is bad in any way, simply that the full-sized VCRs were not made for playing micro-format tapes, and the Panasonic decks just tend to work more reliably in this specific niche scenario.

B.E.S.T. can be amazing, or it can be the W.O.R.S.T. quality. Pun intended. It's one of those settings that you need to try on, then off, and observe carefully to see which looks best. Let your eyes guide you. ---- Assuming you have decent vision, know how to look carefully, and are doing so on an adequate sized television to see flaws. That's always the rub; sometimes people are semi-blind, oblivious to flaws, and monitoring it on a 12" TV from 1990.

I've never heard of a VCR "silently erasing" a tape by accident.

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  #51  
03-30-2012, 10:07 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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i hate the f-ing VHS-C tapes.
i even had an AG-1980 eat one
i take the VHS-C tapes apart and transfer the tape inside into full size VHS housings.
that way they dont get eaten and can be played in a JVC VCR
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  #52  
03-30-2012, 10:11 AM
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Weird. I've never had any big problems with any of the hundreds of PAL VHS-C's I've done. Using JVC C-P6BKU adapter and mostly Panasonic gear. Sometimes JVC. With Panasonic NV-HS1000 the eject mechanism will throw the JVC adapter half a meter to the air if you don't stop it with your hand before that- a bit annoying thing to forget at times..
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  #53  
03-30-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
I've never heard of a VCR "silently erasing" a tape by accident.
Try telling orsetto over on videohelp that! Its possible that the VCR that did that either needed its headed demagnetized, or someone improperly demagnetized the heads in the past (leaving residual magnetic charge on the heads).

From what I remember, the HR-Sx800 models came out in late 1999-2000. They downgraded the 7800, while the 9800 remained largely the same as the 9600. The 7600 was a 9600 with 2Mbit Digipure, but built on the 9600 chassis and kept its features otherwise. The 7800 was based on the 5800's chassis and only added 2Mbit Digipure.
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  #54  
03-30-2012, 10:47 AM
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Regarding VHS-C, there is a VCR I know of that is built to play them, along with regular VHS - the Panasonic NV-V8000, with PAL versions of the same name and also rebranded as a Blaupunkt RTV-1000FC. Here is a clip of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cXDFlQtLCo

I haven't found a lot of info on it, except that it was built in 1991 and was extremely high-end, a so-called "King of the editing equipment" as one site describes it. There was recently a refurbished model available on eBay, unfortunately I couldn't afford it and it was confined to shipping within Europe anyway. I would love to try out this deck though. Also, it's about 14kg.

Edit: Another model I've seen mentioned that has a VHS and VHS-C transports - the JVC BR-S622. I know nothing about this one, but judging by its name, it must've been a pro model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok View Post
Weird. I've never had any big problems with any of the hundreds of PAL VHS-C's I've done. Using JVC C-P6BKU adapter and mostly Panasonic gear. Sometimes JVC. With Panasonic NV-HS1000 the eject mechanism will throw the JVC adapter half a meter to the air if you don't stop it with your hand before that- a bit annoying thing to forget at times..
That is hilarious, but dreadful. I'd never use such a VCR for VHS-C tapes since I'd surely forget about that little hiccup much too often.

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Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
Try telling orsetto over on videohelp that! Its possible that the VCR that did that either needed its headed demagnetized, or someone improperly demagnetized the heads in the past (leaving residual magnetic charge on the heads).
Thanks for bringing that up, I was trying to find the posts where I saw him mention it. He appears to be very knowledgeable about VCRs and in general, and I do pay attention to what he has to say, even if it's differing views to what I may find here.

Last edited by Jarvis; 03-30-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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  #55  
04-01-2012, 09:01 AM
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Hi everyone, recently new to this site (thanks to LordSmurf!) and have a question.
New to the site .. but not new to me. Welcome, stay a while.

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I have the Sony SLV-R1000 SVHS deck ... Would this model VCR do a decent job for transfers? I personally don't see why it shouldn't
I don't see why it shouldn't either.

... assuming it has a line TBC, and actually makes the video look better than the original tape.
After all, that's why people so adore the JVC and Panasonic S-VHS decks -- it improves the video, unlike consumer VCRs.

I don't use this VCR, so I don't recall all of its features off-hand.

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  #56  
04-10-2012, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
... assuming it has a line TBC, and actually makes the video look better than the original tape.
Unfortunately the Sony deck doesn't have a built in TBC, so it looks like I will have to get an external unit. I wouldn't mind looking into getting a Panasonic or JVC unit, but can be hard to find unfortunately.
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  #57  
04-10-2012, 12:59 PM
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Just realize that an external TBC doesn't provide the same function as an internal line TBC.
That's explained in depth here: What is a TBC? Time Base Correction for Videotapes

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  #58  
04-13-2012, 06:50 PM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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should add the sr-vs10 and sr-vs20 to the list.
i got a vs20 here and it is a very nice unit.
made in Japan with an all steel chassis and has 4mb frame memory.
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  #59  
04-18-2012, 05:08 AM
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Adding this to the conversation...

Panasonic NV-HS 880 comes without TBC -- has only DNR.
Panasonic PAL models with TBC, from oldest to the last model:
  1. Panasonic NV-FS 200
  2. Panasonic NV-HS 950
  3. Panasonic NV-HS 1000
  4. Panasonic NV-HS 860
  5. Panasonic NV-HS 930
  6. Panasonic NV-HS 960
  7. Panasonic NV-SV 121

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  #60  
04-21-2012, 03:19 AM
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I was looking at this JVC model on Ebay, which is the JVC BR-S822DXU. I am sure one of these decks would be perfect for capturing tapes since these are the professional decks. Any thoughts on that particular model?
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