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  #41  
07-23-2014, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
Thank you Lordsmurf

So 4tb is good for my USB HD and if going with a second internal HD 2tb should be the max (is that issue just with eSATA)? Does XP recognize that size? I've been transferring captures via small USB flash drives and then watching the end results/saving them through my Mac/PC that has USB 3.0.

When you say encoding/authoring on lesser computers than mine do you mean my P4 XP or my E-450 Win7? Would it work better on the P4 XP (2gb ram) or E-450 Win7 (4gb ram)? Would burning to blu ray via imgburn be good with the P4 XP or do I need another computer that's compatible with the BD-R burner? Which burner is good these days? I hear pioneer but not sure which model would be best. Don't want to make the mistake of buying the wrong series if such a thing exists
Capturing with decent hardware is required to keep up with the incoming video stream. Encoding between a more powerful computer and a lesser one should be equal except for the time it takes. You should be able to do that on your capture computer as well. Good to author to an actual ISO to test/archive and to burn it afterwards.
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  #42  
07-23-2014, 03:41 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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If going with a second internal HD should 2tb be the max (is that an issue just with eSATA or all internals for XP)? Does XP recognize that size? 2tb+ for USB drives are ok?

Which PC would be better for encoding/authoring? The P4 2.4ghz WinXP 2GB RAM or the budget E-450 1.65ghz Win7 4GB RAM?

Would the P4 2.4ghz WinXP 2GB RAM be able to handle imgburn for Blu Ray burning or do I need to get a bare minimum PC that can handle that?
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  #43  
07-23-2014, 10:45 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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I've just got my AVT-8710 (green/black version). It seems like the picture is worse with it than without? The fog/steam to the left of the little girl shows gradations with the AVT-8710 in the workflow whereas when it's taken out the picture looks more natural. Please let me know if that means the AVT I have is defective or it just shouldn't be used for this video. And if it shouldn't be used for this video, when should I use it? I have both a JVC HR-S7600U SVHS player as well as a Panasonic AG-1980 SVHS player. Both captures were done with the Panasonic. Thank you.

Without AVT-8710 TBC:
test without AVT-8710.part1.rar
test without AVT-8710.part2.rar
test without AVT-8710.part3.rar
test without AVT-8710.part4.rar
test without AVT-8710.part5.rar
test without AVT-8710.part6.rar

With AVT-8710 TBC:
test AVT-8710.part1.rar
test AVT-8710.part2.rar
test AVT-8710.part3.rar
test AVT-8710.part4.rar
test AVT-8710.part5.rar
test AVT-8710.part6.rar


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  #44  
07-23-2014, 10:51 PM
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This appears to be a pretty active thread right now.
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  #45  
07-24-2014, 08:24 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
I've just got my AVT-8710 (green/black version). It seems like the picture is worse with it than without? The fog/steam to the left of the little girl shows gradations with the AVT-8710 in the workflow whereas when it's taken out the picture looks more natural. Please let me know if that means the AVT I have is defective or it just shouldn't be used for this video. And if it shouldn't be used for this video, when should I use it? I have both a JVC HR-S7600U SVHS player as well as a Panasonic AG-1980 SVHS player. Both captures were done with the Panasonic. Thank you.
The same flare is present in both versions. The AVT version is brighter. Make sure you have the proc amp controls on the AVT-8710 reset to their defaults. I believe you can do this by pressing the "reset" button for a few seconds. The indicator light for the input type should be "N" for NTSC.

Primarily, a line tbc like the AVT-8710 is used to defeat copy protection. This doesn't appear to be copy-protected video. Occasionally there are other reasons for using it, but I don't see any indication in the "without" video to justify its use.

The AVT-8710 is known to affect gamma, but in this case it's the black levels that are too high to begin with, not just the midtones. Every component that you place in the capture chain has some affect on the source, more or less and for better or worse.

What is the color patch for? It has nothing to do with the high contrast and blown-out highlights of the videos. You should correct luma and chroma issues during capture as well as you can. Color balance can be done post-capture, since it will change with every scene anyway. As it is, that color patch is for RGB 0-255, not broadcast-level RGB 16-240. Both videos have brights that extend way past RGB 255.
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  #46  
07-24-2014, 01:26 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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I've made sure to reset the device by holding "reset" button for several seconds after having seen it in the instructions before using it. Perhaps I had to press the button a little firmer? Does it look like it's not reset?

The input type I've made sure was showing "N" (it was giving me an odd black and white otherwise and I had to manually shift it to "N" as the auto was having difficulty).

I'd like to adjust the levels but in which direction? and by how much? How do I get it within the 16-240 (that's what I want, correct?)?

I've been patiently waiting to find to go with the AVT-8710 as per the recommendation in the guide on this site as well as lordsmurf's high recommendation. Hopefully he can let us know what his opionion is as well. Perhaps this green/black unit is defective?
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  #47  
07-24-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
I've made sure to reset the device by holding "reset" button for several seconds after having seen it in the instructions before using it. Perhaps I had to press the button a little firmer? Does it look like it's not reset?

The input type I've made sure was showing "N" (it was giving me an odd black and white otherwise and I had to manually shift it to "N" as the auto was having difficulty).

I'd like to adjust the levels but in which direction? and by how much? How do I get it within the 16-240 (that's what I want, correct?)?

I've been patiently waiting to find to go with the AVT-8710 as per the recommendation in the guide on this site as well as lordsmurf's high recommendation. Hopefully he can let us know what his opionion is as well. Perhaps this green/black unit is defective?
you can press select to switch the settings and up and down until you get where you want it to, on the unit alone its impossible to tell numerically if its right or wrong, so just go off of how it looks to you. It generally looks a little bright but I have found that its more often then not a combination of contrast and brightness rather than one setting or another to get things right. i dont believe its defective, but go by your eyes, and quite often many tapes will end up using the same levels.
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  #48  
07-24-2014, 03:45 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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I don't know how you go by your eyes if you're looking to hit within specific figures. would the steam/gradation effect go away if I tone down brightness? Not sure why that effect is happening with a TBC. It almost seems as if the picture without the AVT looks better but I'm new at this so I'm not 100% certain. The problem is, I've purchased this for it's TBC function and the proc amp was meant to be a bonus feature for me. If the TBC doesn't work, it's defective in my eyes (unless this is how it usually performs). I've heard a lot of the black newer models had severe QC issues and that's why it gets a bad reputation but the older green/black models (like the one I have) did not and it was the best TBC out there along with the TBC-1000.

I have a suspicion the TBC is defective since when I turned the internal TBC from the panasonic off (with the AVT on), the picture behaved erratically much like how it looked without both TBCs in the loop. I've also tested out the TBC with another tape that was recorded in SLP mode and it behaved the same way as if the TBC wasn't there. I'm suspecting this unit is defective but would need clarification before I open a case.

Please let me know if the TBC isn't working as I've been patiently waiting to finally nab a green/black AVT-8710 (7 months). If it is defective (the TBC portion) I only have a few days span to return it for a full refund and since I've spent close to what a new black AVT would've cost, I'd like to use that opportunity as soon as possible. If it is defective as a TBC I don't mind waiting for another one to come along as long as this is defective and I can return it.

Thank you.
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  #49  
07-24-2014, 04:19 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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It could possibly be defective. In any case, if you're dissatisfied you should probbaly erturn it.

The most reliable dealer I know of for these tbc's with good service who do track any complaints about a product line would be the Professional Video Department at B&H Photo Video.
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  #50  
07-24-2014, 07:11 PM
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I bought a black one from Amazon and have been happy with it
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  #51  
07-24-2014, 09:16 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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That's the thing. I only want to return if the TBC is defective. Not sure it is or isn't cause I'm not familiar with it's behavior. Looking for feedback in case I'm missing something.
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  #52  
07-24-2014, 09:48 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I don't see that your AVT capture version is doing anything wrong, except that it's black leels are too high. If you think the left-hand flare only appears on the AVT version, there's something wrong with your monitor. It's on both versions. There;s also a little flare starting in the same area in the very first frames of both captures.

Did you try premiumcapture's suggestions in post #48, above? You might have inadvertently raised the proc amp's brightness control without realizing it. As noted earlier, holding down the "Reset" button for several seconds resets the proc amp control. To lower the glare of the brightest colors, lower the contrast control. To lower the ovrall brightness starting with the blacks on up, lower the Bright control. It might sound contradictory, but "Brightness" controls black levels and "Contrast" usually works with gain in the brights. The two controls do interact a bit, so you often have to toggle back and forth to get things exactly right.
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  #53  
07-25-2014, 02:18 AM
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I'm not sure that it is defective -- I've never seen this defect before. It looks more like the TBC is reacting badly to this specific tape. I wonder how it works with retail tapes.

I'm not sure what to say here.

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  #54  
07-25-2014, 08:10 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Thanks guys!!

I now have a few things to test out (and am excited to try). I'll do some testing today/tomorrow with an old store bought tape and I'll press down the reset button a bit more firmly even though I've attempted multiple times(just in case it didn't register a press?). I'll also see if there's a difference installing MMC as the original one hour capture was done when I had that installed (and didn't have the gradation effect in the steam).
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  #55  
07-25-2014, 08:15 AM
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Instead of just pressing reset, turn the brightness way down and make the image dark. The press reset, and you should see everything bounce back. Just mashing buttons without a way to test it is never a good idea.

I'm also not see we can discount the capture device as being part of the problem. Another variable to consider!

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  #56  
07-25-2014, 10:35 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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As far as the tbc goes, I think you should return it. Amazon wouldn't be my first choice for buying the product anyway. Trying the unit with more than one tape, however, would give a more reliable conclusion. You might try the kind of copy-protected tape it was designed for.

TBC aside, none of them will solve the problems I'm seeing on the "with" and "Without' samples you provided. The bright flare is caused by the way those scenes were photographed. It's pretty much a case of lens flare. But there are other problems. Saturation is strong, to the point where clothing and skin tones approach neon or day-glo colors. High-contrast, mixed lighting makes it worse. The first scene with the woman eating looks very much like damaged tape -- either that, or severe mistracking along the top of the tape. Look at the wall tiles on the wall in the background: they flutter and ripple in a way that suggests that the tape surface is losing contact with the heads. There's also some line twitter on the tea kettle in the lower right. In the upper right, the chrome handle of the refrigerator is unstable and warped. I can only imagine what those problems would look like without a line tbc or a decent tracking VCR.

Unfortunately those are not the kind of in-frame timing problems that a full-frame tbc would address. Another problem with that first scene: look at the white objects in the scene, especially the woman's white neckware. You can see an on/off bluish flicker in the white objects. You can also see a couple of lines of orange pixels that flutter on and off along the bottom border, just above the head switching noise. These are suspicion indicators of a damaged section of tape. The overall color imbalance for both videos leans visibly toward purple. It would be better to correct that imbalance during post-processing and not during capture. VHS is far too unpredictable for on-the-spot color grading. But you can always set brightness and contrast to handle what you think would be the worst-case scenario for those two elements during playback. Wost-case settings should suffice for almost the entire video, except for some really off-the-chart scenes that might require re-capture.

The brightness problem isn't unusual with many tbc's, but here it seems somewhat excessive. I once read that those proc amp controls were originally designed for calibrating the AVT, with the ability to massage the input signal being an extra perk. Don't recall where I read that piece, but it was pretty far back during the pleistocene era when I first started working with video.

If you really want to know whether the tbc version is truly brighter than the non-tbc version, it's simple enough to verify by using a histogram and a pixel sampler. I realize that newcomers have a morbid fear of trying the sort of tools that pros rely on. So to relieve your curiosity, I used my own tools and can report the following:

The dark values in the tbc version are an average 12 RGB points brighter than those same pixels in the non-tbc version. The bright flared areas are 10 to 14 RGB points brighter than the same areas in the non-tbc version. It would hardly seem to matter so much, because both videos have been captured with an elevated basic IRE that is almost 15 RGB points above RGB16 black. The higher black levels are consistent through the video and are a little tricky to correct because of the high contrast. The scenes with the little girl are consistently overexposed. Anyway, the brights in both versions were badly clipped on two occasions: (a) when the videos were photographed without regard to strong light in view of the camera or to contrasty lighting that is beyond the range of analog or digital video to record without problems, and (b) they were clipped some more during capture.

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-25-2014 at 11:12 PM.
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  #57  
07-25-2014, 10:51 PM
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I don't really like messing with color outside of software, especially if im thinking about digital metrics. The only time i adjust the settings is if the saturation is too high or the brights get blown out.
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  #58  
07-26-2014, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by premiumcapture View Post
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533

It maxes out at 15 for SD but 40 for HD.
Near as I can tell, your link doesn't support what you're saying. Look at the column heading where the 15Mbps limits are listed, then look at the one to the left of it. The one you're referring to is 15Mbps even for HD frame sizes.

Also, that thread is about AVC, not MPEG-2.
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  #59  
07-26-2014, 12:51 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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I can confirm the reset helped take away the gradation of the steam on the lense (at least that's what I think it is as this was taken during winter) and was relieved.

I was furthering my tests and noticed the 3 retail tapes I've tried all played without the AVT-8710 in the middle. Two NBA VHS tapes from 1993 and 1995 as well as an Epcot tape from 1986 played fine without the AVT. Is the copy protection on VHS retail for more recent tapes? I don't think I'd have anything more recent. And I'm still not sure if the TBC portion is working. I'll convert to RAR files and upload each

-- merged --

So I've finally gotten everything captured and put through winrar. I'm trying to find out if the AVT-8710's TBC is working as well as which flow works better for capture. There are three categories. Home video, SLP, and retail VHS. Here are the results.

This is the home video with the AVT and Panny AG-1980 TBC on (notice the glare on the left of the little girl no longer has gradations like a topographic map.

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same video with the Panny TBC but without the AVT TBC to see If the TBC is doing anything:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same home video with both panny TBC and AVT TBC turned off

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same home video with the panny TBC turned off and just the AVT TBC on to see what the AVT TBC is doing:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is a video bought in a store without the AVT TBC and without the panny TBC. For some reason it seems to play/capture fine. All three of my tapes captured fine on both my panny and JVC. Is this normal?

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same video with both TBCs on (AVT & panny). Seems like this tape is better off without any TBC? Seemed odd.

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi
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  #60  
07-26-2014, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
I can confirm the reset helped take away the gradation of the steam on the lense (at least that's what I think it is as this was taken during winter) and was relieved.
Then the TBC sounds like it's working, if not adding errors.

Quote:
I was furthering my tests and noticed the 3 retail tapes I've tried all played without the AVT-8710 in the middle. Two NBA VHS tapes from 1993 and 1995 as well as an Epcot tape from 1986 played fine without the AVT. Is the copy protection on VHS retail for more recent tapes?
I highly doubt those tapes have any form of copy protection.

One of my favorite copy protection tapes is "Liar, Liar" with Jim Carrey, as the tape has really ugly Macrovision errors. The TBC-100, TBC-1000, and AVT-8710 completely ignore it.

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