Quantcast KVCD: Quality Showdown - Resolution vs. CQ for File Size? - Page 2 - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #21  
09-12-2002, 07:53 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Here's another high action 2 minute sample contribution, so you guys can add it to your sample bucket ~11 MB.
The audio on this one was encoded with SCMPX, also at 112Kbps with Dolby Surround.

http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/matrix-chopper-lbr.mpg

-kwag
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  #22  
09-13-2002, 07:49 AM
black prince black prince is offline
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Hi Kwag and Ren,

Thanks for your great work and effort. I just encoded "Predator",
106 minutes with KVCD-LBR and the quality was very good. The
file size 670 MB and audio 112. I have a question though. Since
there was room left on the CD to improve the video quality even
further, how should I adjust vbr_cq, min and max bitrate. Which
would effect the picture quality the most and least effect the size.
If a movie has lots of action vs little action, or dark vs not so dark,
or wide screen vs full screen etc., how will effect file size. Would
building movie profile chart give us some guide lines of where to begin
setting vbr_cq, min and max bitrates based on similar movies. Just
a thought. Again great work and I can't wait to see then KVCD-VLBR.

-black prince
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  #23  
09-13-2002, 01:38 PM
pacodoni pacodoni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black prince
Hi Kwag and Ren,

Thanks for your great work and effort. I just encoded "Predator",
106 minutes with KVCD-LBR and the quality was very good. The
file size 670 MB and audio 112. I have a question though. Since
there was room left on the CD to improve the video quality even
further, how should I adjust vbr_cq, min and max bitrate. Which
would effect the picture quality the most and least effect the size.
If a movie has lots of action vs little action, or dark vs not so dark,
or wide screen vs full screen etc., how will effect file size. Would
building movie profile chart give us some guide lines of where to begin
setting vbr_cq, min and max bitrates based on similar movies. Just
a thought. Again great work and I can't wait to see then KVCD-VLBR.

-black prince

Hey Black prince, how are you.

I made some tests with the CQ, and this wsa the results :

Encoding Bram Stokers Dracula wich i chose because the fog and night scenes, very usefull to see artifacts
I know that is a medium action movie, not high action as predator, that i've already encoded too, and it's a hard one.

Well let's get to the point.

CQ Time Filesize
20 1min 4,05Mb
25 1min 4,6 Mb
30 1min 5,3 Mb
35 1min 5,7 Mb
40 1min 5,9 Mb

BUT, remember, as kwag said, this template is for convenience, not quality

20, it's the template image, wich is good !
25, gets better, some artifacts that you could see are almost gone.
30 you almost see no artifacts.
Of course that if you use 35 in CQ, you'll be using 352x240 PLUS.
I'm talking about no sound movies, but the filesizes are very impressive.

Just do the Math and see what you can do with predator.

If you use the sound like KWAG told, in 64, not 128, you'll get some extra space, so give it a try.

Still had no time to test the Max/Min bitrate, but i'll find some.

Anyway, hope it helps

C ya

Pacodoni
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  #24  
09-13-2002, 02:01 PM
black prince black prince is offline
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Hi pacodoni,

Thanks for info. I going to get busy and do some testing.
I used the default settings of KVCD-LBR. I will use this as
my baseline to check quality vs filesize. I'll post
my findings a.s.a.p.

Thankx

-black prince
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  #25  
09-13-2002, 04:09 PM
pacodoni pacodoni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Hi pacodoni,
Let us know your results. I know there are many people right now encoding something with the LBR ( I know I am )

@All,

The main page has been updated, and the PAL template is also posted.
Pal's, try it out

Enjoy,
-kwag
Hi Kwag !!!!

Well, if everything runs ok, you soon can add a new topic as "180 Minutes of video with KVCD template"

Yeah, i have encoded braveheart, using sound in 64, but it came a little bigger than green mile, i got 819 MB without any credits, but, as green mile, it was almost fullscreen, and, has some action scenes.
Anyway, it's very cool use 3 hours on a cd.

Just a thing, when you did greenmile, you used VCDEasy or Nero ?

I've tried to use VCDEasy, but, it didn't let me burn, said that wasn't room...
Is there something to do on it ?

By the way, just for another test, i did Dracula, with the same template, sound at 80 and CQ on 40. The result got cool , and the filesize was 799MB

Well, thats it, now i'll keep on testing...
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  #26  
09-13-2002, 04:41 PM
rendalunit rendalunit is offline
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hi Pacodoni,

Thanks for your info about filesizes with different CQ values- very helpful. To get VCDEasy to overburn-> settings / tools / CDRDAO / check allow overburn and force execution - that should make it work.

Also I was wondering how 64kbps audio sounds? Is there much of a difference between 112 and 64?

thanks!
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  #27  
09-13-2002, 06:18 PM
black prince black prince is offline
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Hi All,

Here are my test results and my comments about picture quality.
.
GENERAL
Movie:……………. Predator
Time: …………….. 1 hr 46 min 26 sec (106 min 26 sec)
.
DVD2AVI
Aspect Ratio:…... 4:3
Frame Rate:………. 23.976 fps (Force Film)
Frame Type:……… Progressive / Interlaced
Audio:………....……. None
.
FITCD
Source:……………. 480 X 480 (SVCD)
Crop:……………… Accurate
Resize:…………….. 336 x 224
Block TV-overscan.. 1
Destination:……….. (VCD) 352 x 240
.
AVISYNTH
LoadPlugin("E:\DVD Backup\2 - DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC2.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\Temp\Predator.d2v")
BilinearResize(336,224,0,0,480,480)
TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(8,8,8,8 )
.
TMPGENC
Templet:…………… KVCD-LBR (352x240)
Video Input:……….. Predator.avs
Audio Input:………. None
.
Test#1 (Time 1 minute)
.
CQ…….Min bitrate…….Max bitrate…….File Size…..Picture Quality
20………..300…………….1150…………………6,043KB..... good
21………..300…………….1150…………………6,201KB..... same
22………..300…………….1150…………………6.341KB..... same
23………..300…………….1150…………………6,475KB..... same
24………..300…………….1150…………………6,597KB..... same
25………..300…………….1150…………………6,714KB..... same
26………..300…………….1150…………………6,818KB..... same
27………..300…………….1150…………………6,910KB..... same
28………..300…………….1150…………………6,987KB..... same
29………..300…………….1150…………………7,051KB..... same
30………..300…………….1150…………………7,106KB..... same

*** Note picture quality for a standard television would not
improve just by increasing CQ. HDTV is another matter.
.
Test#2 (Time 1 minute)
.
CQ…….Min bitrate…….Max bitrate…….File Size…..Picture
20………..300…………….1150…………………6,043KB.... good
20………..400…………….1150…………………6,094KB.... good+
20………..500…………….1150…………………6,155KB.... better (a)
20………..600…………….1150…………………6,318KB.... same
20………..700…………….1150…………………6,615KB.... same
20………..800…………….1150…………………6,946KB.... same
20………..900…………….1150…………………7,454KB.... same
20………..1000………….1150………………….7,971KB.... same
20………..1150………….1150…………………8,551KB..... same

(a) artifacts were almost gone, krona around people was the
least visible, and distant objects appeared to have more detail.
Increasing min bitrate above 500 also, did not improve picture
quality.

My conclusion from my own tests are that min and max bitrates
had the most effect on the picture quality. I am encoding the entire
movie using these settings (CQ=20,Min bitrate=500, max bitrate=1150)
to judge the overall quality and filesize. If anyone would like to make
suggestions to help improve my tests, please PM

-black prince
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  #28  
09-13-2002, 06:55 PM
pacodoni pacodoni is offline
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Hi Black prince

Cool info, the bitrates sounds very atractive, will trt em on.

But, Did you really not saw differrence between 20 and 30 CQ's ?

I don't know, maybe are different movies, but, anyway, i'll burn the bitrates you indicated, they looked very impressive.

Well thanks for the info, great job.

C ya round.

Pacodoni
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  #29  
09-13-2002, 07:42 PM
pacodoni pacodoni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rendalunit
hi Pacodoni,

Thanks for your info about filesizes with different CQ values- very helpful. To get VCDEasy to overburn-> settings / tools / CDRDAO / check allow overburn and force execution - that should make it work.

Also I was wondering how 64kbps audio sounds? Is there much of a difference between 112 and 64?

thanks!
Hi rendalunit

I know what you mean...
When i heard about 64kbps i wonder if it would work, but believe me it does, the sound is good, i've tested on the home theater, and sounds cool, the surround, everything.
About 112 - 64, yes, you notice some difference, but not much, at least i didn't.
Well, i'll keep testing, any suggestions, i'm all years.

C ya

Pacodoni

PS : Thanks for the info on VCDEasy :P
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  #30  
09-13-2002, 09:11 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Stay tunned. In about an hour, I'm posting an updated KVCD-LBR template, with a sample from the current template, and a new one with the updated template
Final testing going on now. Looks GOOOOD!!!
The changes affect the following: Lower the visual macro blocks, increase sharpness, and lower the artifacts level. More details in a while.

@rendalunit, check your PM.

-kwag
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  #31  
09-13-2002, 10:45 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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As promissed. Here you go!.

http://www.kvcd.net/KVCD-LBR-09132002-352x240-(NTSCFilm)-PLUS.mcf

Here's a sample with the KVCD-LBR that was released yesterday: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/kvcd-old.lbr.mpg
Here's the sample with the NEW KVCD-LBR update today: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/kvcd-new.lbr.mpg

NOTE: The audio on these samples is out of sync. I encoded with TMPEG's cut-edit, and something happened. So don't worry about it

This update supercedes the template released yesterday, so the old one will be removed from the download page.

Description of changes made to the new template:
(1) Dropped one B frame. It was 3, now it's 2. This makes a tighter GOP, necessary because of such a low bit rate. Makes better picture.
(2) Unchecked "Soften Blocks". Works better.
(3) Dropped MIN bit rate from 300 to 64 YES, that makes a BIG difference on dark scenes, by going way deep down on the bit rate, thus we save average bits!.
(4) Changed motion precision from "Highest-Quality" to "High-Quality", No visual change, but almost twice the speed encoding now
(5) Changed MAX number of frames per GOP to 15. Why? SURPRISE, just something popped into my mind If any of you guys are happy with this quality, then why not put your complete collection on a DVD
DVD standard does specify 352x240 MPEG-1 at 48Khz audio. But the MAX frames per GOP can't be more that 15 for PAL or 18 for NTSC. So if you encode with the KVCD-LBR, but encode the audio at 48Khz, you have a DVD compliant mpeg file! You may ask, what for?
Because if we can put 3 hours on a CD-R, NOW WE CAN PUT ABOUT 15-18 HOURS ON A DVD-R

Imagine this. You're on a 12 hour flight, watching your complete Star Trek collection on a single DVD Go ahead, think about the possibilities.

Comments and ideas welcome

Enjoy!,
-kwag
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  #32  
09-13-2002, 11:22 PM
Bud Bud is offline
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Kwag

That long flight you talked about, well next week I depart for a 10 hour flight and I have the 10 Part Band Of Brothers stored in the VRO file format, guess where this going to be recorded and played back on my Panasonic LV55 Portable? Will let you know how it goes pior to departing................


Aloha
Bud
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  #33  
09-13-2002, 11:41 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud
Kwag

That long flight you talked about, well next week I depart for a 10 hour flight and I have the 10 Part Band Of Brothers stored in the VRO file format, guess where this going to be recorded and played back on my Panasonic LV55 Portable? Will let you know how it goes pior to departing................


Aloha
Bud
I just knew you would comment Bud
Please let us know your results. The mpeg's should burn and play in every DVD player on the market, if encoded with audio at 48Khz. Just like the DMR-E20's lowest resolution mode. But that's MPEG-2. Still, you should have a better quality picture than the DMR's 6 hour mode and it should look pretty damn good on your portable DVD player!
Have a good trip Bud!

Later,
-kwag
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  #34  
09-14-2002, 07:53 AM
black prince black prince is offline
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Hi ren,

I got your email. The SVCD I used as source is very good quality.
And yes, CQ 20 to 30 seemed to make very little difference in
picture quality, but min and max bitrates helped. The final "Predator"
movie size is 493MB and audio 192khz (150MB). This is the first time
my movie sounded better than it looked. The one minute clip
I chose was where Dutch is knealing down next to the truck and is
about to put explosive on the back and lift it off the logs supporting
the rear axel. It's approximately 24min 14sec into the movie. Taken
one minute from this point there is intense action when the fire fight
begins. Tmpgenc would be using lots of bitrates for these fast changing
scenecs. I looked at the entire movie and close-up scenes were very
good, but objects in the background were fuzzy. Scenes at medium and
far distance were very fuzzy and sometimes blocky. Still this is good
progress and needs tweaking Since Kwag has put out an updated KVCD-LBR
today, I'll start testing again from square one. I also have a VCD
encoded by panasonic encoder from the same source. It looks very
good and has hardly any blocks and artifacts. However, the picture
is generally not as sharp as KVCD-LBR for now. I believe this may be
due to TS(2,2) since the original movie was filtered. The filesize is higher
as you might expect (video = 710MB). As you can tell I am very
interested in KVCD-LBR, since I play movies at work. Portability is
very important to me. I am just glad you and Kwag are even trying to
work with this type of problem.

-black prince
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  #35  
09-14-2002, 11:09 AM
pacodoni pacodoni is offline
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Kwag, Tested the new template's image, on Dracula, Very good Image, and, using sound made with headache in 128, getsabout 5 meg per minute, of corse that if multiplex later the sound and image i guess the filesize would be smaller, but it's about 160 minutes of movies with 128 sound, And, maybe i'm wrong, but, you don't notice much difference from the 352x240 Puls, if, the new one isn't better.

I'll try more samples, configs of CQ, sound, etc, i'll post 2 ya all.

Just a question, about the Min Bitrate, how can it be so low and get good results ? I didn't want to make any change on that, cos i guess it will be the best let it as it is. Wha do u think

Well, excellent work, Kwag and Rendalunit.

C ya
Pacodoni
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  #36  
09-14-2002, 11:42 AM
rendalunit rendalunit is offline
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hi pacodoni,

I think that the lower min. bitrate results in less visible blocks in dark scenes.
The new template looks excellent- I'm glad I now know that 3 hours of good quality audio and video on 1 cd is possible!

I'm just doing testing of templates and samples like you and others here so I should be excluded from your credits

thanks,
randy
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  #37  
09-14-2002, 12:21 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacodoni
Just a question, about the Min Bitrate, how can it be so low and get good results ? I didn't want to make any change on that, cos i guess it will be the best let it as it is. Wha do u think
Hi pacodoni,

That's the beauty of CQ mode . It sustains quality, but when you go into dark scenes where there's hardly video data, the bit rate goes all the way down to the MIN set value. Before, I had set MIN=300. So even on a totally black screen, the video stream bit rate floor would be a 300Kbps stream. Now, it goes down to 64Kbps. This buys us smaller file size, without any quality loss. And you are right, there's very small difference from the 352x240 PLUS. Oh yes, there is! more than one additional hour of play time I need more feedback from people, because I think that if a movie is Wide Screen and audio encoded at 112Kbps, we can get more that 3 hours . I just finished "When we were soldier" with the new LBR, and the video size is 582,020KB so I encoded the audio at full 224Kbps. Total file size is 819,282KB. This movie is 138 minutes. I also encoded some clips with the standard VCD template that comes with TMPEG, and there's barely any difference compared to the new KVCD-LBR.
I watched the first 30 minutes last night on my 60" Magnavox TV ( Not HDTV ), and it looks like a good VCD.
Also everyone should take a look at this ( Thanks Latexxx! ) : http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1216
I just tried a small clip with the LBR, and the file size was reduced and looks excelent
Here's what my .avs looks like:

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\Convolution3d.dll")
mpeg2source("K:\SOLDIERS\VIDEO_TS\soldiers.d2v")
BilinearResize(336,192,45,0,630,480)
Convolution3d (1, 8, 8, 8, 8, 3, 0)
#TemporalSmoother(1,2)
AddBorders(8,24,8,24)

Here's the web site for "Convolution3D for AviSynth" : http://hellninjacommando.com/con3d/

Another great tool! I'll be experimenting with this today
So far, so GOOD


-kwag
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  #38  
09-14-2002, 01:43 PM
pacodoni pacodoni is offline
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Hi Kwag !!!!!

Good news are coming in battalions !!!!


I'll find some time to test the widescreen thing.

Just a question ( i guess dumb a one ) the convolution filter, i just add in the avscrypt in FITCD ?

C ya

Pacodoni
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  #39  
09-14-2002, 02:16 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacodoni
Hi Kwag !!!!!

Good news are coming in battalions !!!!


I'll find some time to test the widescreen thing.

Just a question ( i guess dumb a one ) the convolution filter, i just add in the avscrypt in FITCD ?

C ya

Pacodoni
Yes, add it AFTER the resize. If you add it before the resize line, it will be way slower. It will look a little better, but just takes too long.

Tip for everyone trying out the Convolution3D:
If you use this filter, the mpeg will be smaller, so you can increase the CQ_VBR in the LBR template from 20 to 22. This way, small artefacts are further reduced. The file size is just a tad larger.


And BTW, based on my experience with the file size generated with the LBR, after seeing "We were soldiers" which is a full of action movie, I believe that for a regular movies that have normal action scenes, the LBR should easily hit 200 minutes with audio at 112Kbps or 128Kbps Possibly fitting two regular movies on one CD-R. This has to be confirmed

Try it out

-kwag
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  #40  
09-14-2002, 02:26 PM
pacodoni pacodoni is offline
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Thanks Kwag, i'm already encoding...

It's ok ( speking in encoding time ) takes 8 hours to a 129 min movie ?


That's how my avs is :

LoadPlugin("D:\Uteis\DVD - VCD\FitCD\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\Uteis\DVD - VCD\FitCD\Convolution3D.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\DRACULA\VIDEO_TS\draculia.d2v")
BilinearResize(336,224,0,0,720,480)
Convolution3d (1, 8, 8, 8, 8, 3, 0)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)

If you have any suggestionon it, let me know !!

Just for fun, i'm using cq at 30 and sound at 128 the average file per minute decrease to 5.9Meg.

Well back to work

C ya

Pacodoni
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