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  #1  
05-01-2003, 06:20 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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I have to make some standard VCDs for some people that is paying me to convert their VHS to VCD. I was wondering if I could increase the quality of the encode ripping one of the excellent KVCD matrix. I choose the KVCD 120 minutes matrix. Can this give me better results with the standard template and does doing this makes my VCD non-standard?

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  #2  
05-01-2003, 06:46 PM
jorel jorel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmesquita
I have to make some standard VCDs for some people that is paying me to convert their VHS to VCD. I was wondering if I could increase the quality of the encode ripping one of the excellent KVCD matrix. I choose the KVCD 120 minutes matrix. Can this give me better results with the standard template and does doing this makes my VCD non-standard?

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Vmesquita
hi Vmesquita,welcome


the answers :
maybe yes to all!
depending of the player.

first is better download the compatibility test cd image from:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2464

burn in cdrw and see what template/resolution the player suport.

than, after the test you can choose what is better for you.

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05-01-2003, 07:08 PM
urban tec urban tec is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmesquita
I have to make some standard VCDs for some people that is paying me to convert their VHS to VCD. I was wondering if I could increase the quality of the encode ripping one of the excellent KVCD matrix. I choose the KVCD 120 minutes matrix. Can this give me better results with the standard template and does doing this makes my VCD non-standard?

[]'s
Vmesquita
If you are just using the matrix but still using 1150 CBR then this would be a standard vcd. The long Gop and VBR are waht make these non standard Vcd.

Btw the matrix is the same for all templates.
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  #4  
05-01-2003, 07:19 PM
jorel jorel is offline
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using the matrix but still using 1150 CBR...
then this would be a standard vcd.

yes but with the audio at 224

than you will lose precious spaces cos
converting from VHS,you don't need this quality for audio,need?
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  #5  
05-02-2003, 11:28 AM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Certainly that much audio bitrate wouldn't be needed, but unfortunatelly, I have to stick to the standards, since I can't convert people's VHS to a XVCD that may not work in other player they try, or even if they decide to buy a new one. So I am looking for ways to increase the quality staying within the standards, and this looks like a good way to do it... Anyone got another idea?

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  #6  
05-02-2003, 11:34 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Another idea? Good smoothing for this Ultra Low Bitrate and some sharpen filters. Also use some overscan to save some bytes...
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  #7  
05-02-2003, 12:32 PM
dazedconfused dazedconfused is offline
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Yep, what Jellygoose said. Aside from using Kwag's excellent Notch-matrix, about the only other thing I can think of (to remain totally vcd-compliant) is some good avisynth filtering.

Just a thought: Maybe you should offer these people a "bonus" disc (an excellent looking KVCD), clearly marked "Warning: This disc will not play properly in all dvd players and is given only as a courtesy." Then if it doesn't work, nothing is lost (and they also see you went the extra mile)....but if it does work and they're impressed by the quality (and if you've seen KVCDs, then you know they will be ), maybe you'll get some more business from them in the future. The price of 1 extra cd-r would be negligible, but may bring about a great deal of satisfaction for both you, and your client in the long run. You could even have them test a copy of the KVCD Compatibility Test CD which is available for download here in the "What's Happening" Forum beforehand, so they could test which KVCD templates will work properly in their player beforehand. (The 352x240 resolution kvcd templates are probably the most compatible with most players...and if you encoded them @ 29.97fps instead of 23.976fps, then I would think they'd be even more likely to work in most players).

If nothing else, standard-compliant SVCDs should work in many dvd players and would look considerably better than run-of-the-mill VCDs, so maybe you could give them a bonus SVCD conversion. Personally (since I know the alternative possibilities that are available), I'd sorta cringe at the thought of having my home-movies or other important stuff saved to the standard VCD format (though it's certainly better than nothing! )

Regards,
-d&c
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  #8  
05-02-2003, 03:17 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Well, I don't like VCD format for my stuff (also because I know other good hi-quality alternatives available). Generally I enconde to SVCD or DivX (for really high motion stuff like the Jeniffer Lopez show Let's Get Loud for instance). I never tried KVCD (shame on me) because I don't have a standalone DVD player, I use my TV-Out.
dazed&confused gave a good idea, the problem is: some people have players that only play CD-RW, and giving them 2 extra CD-RW (for 2 hours of video) wouldn't be a good idea to me. I also would have to do two encodes of each video... Anyway, I'll think about it. It's a interesting idea.

I also thought about lending them a KVCD test disk (since I already lend my clients a VCD CD-R and a VCD CD-RW), but I think asking them to test 4 disks (CDR VCD, CDRW VCD, CDR KVCD, CDRW KVCD) would be too much... Also it kills the compatibility issue. And SVCD can't hold 1 hour of full-screen (and not widescreen) home movies with quality.

I'll keep thinking...

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  #9  
05-02-2003, 05:23 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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I am currently capturing at 640x480 with PicVideo Mjpeg 19, then:

SmoothDeinterlace(tff=false, doublerate=false)

GrapeSmoother(45) # to kill the color oscilation

Crop(12,12,616,456).AddBorders(12,12,12,12).Bicubi cResize(352,240,0,0.75)

The resize process acts as a denoiser, so I don't filter besides Grapesmoother. But I wish the image in low-motion scenes were sharper.

Vmesquita
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  #10  
05-05-2003, 07:37 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Update:

I decided to change my strategy. Now I am giving my clients 2 Test CDs: a CD-RW KVCD and a CD-RW standart VCD. Browsing vcdhelp I found out that players that only supported CD-R were very few (didn't saw any sold here in Brazil, BTW), but many more only accepted CD-RW. So now I am working only with CD-RW, for the sake of not confusing my clients (by giving them 4 test disks). I thought very well and decided that as a costumer, I would want high quality conversion on my stand-alone (and possibly most VCD supporting ones) rather them low quality on all vcd supporting stand-alones. We don't have stand alone VCDs here except for a Karaoke player that most people don't know it can play VCDs. I also asked some people about it and they agreed with me. What do you think?

I am using (for the KVCD) the 352x240 template, at 29.97 (since most stuff is true interlaced content anyway, and I also get more compatibility) Can I gain compatibility by using an standard GOP? For now I'll keep the KVCD GOP, just changing from 24 to 30 as KWAG suggested for 29.97 FPS.

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  #11  
05-06-2003, 12:05 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi Vmesquita,

A VCD made with KVCD's "Notch" matrix and a GOP of 15 (PAL) or 18 (NTSC), should be 100% compatible with all VCD players. Because you are using constant bit rate for a standard VCD, you don't gain by using a longer GOP. On the contrary, you loose quality. So change your GOP to the above, and make sure you use the notch matrix. Then you'll be making quality VCDs second to none
You'll have excelent "near blockless/no visible DCTs" on low lit scenes with this technique

-kwag
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  #12  
05-06-2003, 01:20 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Thanks Kwag!

Now I can offer my clients KVCDs and for those whose player don't support, super optimized standard VCDs. I noticed a good improvement by using a GOP of 18 (NTSC) and the Notch Matrix. But of course still can beat (by far) KVCD 352x240 CQ74. Where can I get a KVCD logo to put on my discs? I think KVCD is more compatible than SVCD, altrough it's not (yet ) an official standard.

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  #13  
05-06-2003, 02:43 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmesquita
Where can I get a KVCD logo to put on my discs?
From the main page at www.kvcd.net, right click on the logo, and "Save as..." to store it. Now make many many labels and spread them like butter on all your client VCDs

-kwag
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  #14  
05-07-2003, 10:37 AM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Hi Kwag,

I just noticed a strange thing: using a GOP of 18 seems to crash Windows players when seeking. Not stand-alones (I haven't tested this on stand alone yet), but commom Windows Players, like Media Player 6.4, Media Player Classic and ZoomPlayer. I am using XP SP1 (may have something to do since MPEG1 is a system codec). Previously I have tested a 22 sec clip and it was ok (but the clip was so small that I never tried seeking). Now I did a 8 min sample and this happed. It's also strange to notice that the problem happens with the "optimized" standard VCD (Notch Matrix + GOP 1 but not with KVCD (both at 29,97). I'll do more tests to check if this happens often.
Anyway, my KVCD test disc for my clients is ready. I could use the default one because some people is too stupid to tell you what option of the menu worked, so I did a KVCD 352x240 at CQ 74 and 29.97 using the guide "KVCD from scratch", using the same 8 min clip.

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  #15  
05-07-2003, 12:13 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi vmesquita,

Seems like a CODEC problem. I had the same problem once with WMP, and somehow I got it fixed, but I can't recall how
I'm also using XP SP1. You shouldn't have any problems playing in a standalone DVD player though

-kwag
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  #16  
05-07-2003, 05:45 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Hi Kwag,

Thanks for the tip, I'll see if there's any media player updates and I'll also bring the VCD to test on the machines at my work (We have some Win2000 and WinNT4 there, with old media players). Do you know any place I can get detailed VCD specs? I am kinda challenged to find out how far it's possible to go without breaking the specs, altrough I am now working with KVCDs.

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  #17  
05-07-2003, 07:34 PM
labomba labomba is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmesquita
Where can I get a KVCD logo to put on my discs?
From the main page at www.kvcd.net, right click on the logo, and "Save as..." to store it. Now make many many labels and spread them like butter on all your client VCDs

-kwag
Hi Kwag.
I'm starting a project very similar here. No problem to use the KVCD logo also?

LaBomba
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  #18  
05-07-2003, 11:48 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labomba

Hi Kwag.
I'm starting a project very similar here. No problem to use the KVCD logo also?

LaBomba
No problem at all But if you do use our logo (please mention it's our logo!), make sure you do scream out loud "K V C D" and spread the word out who we are and what we do

-kwag
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  #19  
05-08-2003, 04:18 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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LaBomba,

So what's your project? Maybe we could exchange some knowledge, avs scripts, ideas, etc...

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  #20  
05-08-2003, 05:38 PM
labomba labomba is offline
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No problem
Let me scratch some ideas and will send you a pm in few days.
Where are you living here in Brazil? I saw that Jorel got 90min CD-Rs here. Maybe that CD-Rs could help to achieve quality on a standard VCD?

LaBomba
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